Mostly “Fire Geoff Collins”, some reminiscing, maybe bourbon or other distractions

[Animal02]

So we can't hire proven coaches per your first statement. Then should we hire somebody with the prayer that "maybe we run into something cheap who can't be any worse than what we have now?" Is that how you suggest we run a multimillion dollar business? We tried this approach with CPJ and DC's. How well did that work out for us? Do you think we are any better now in our hiring processes or have more football acumen in the building than when Paul was here? I don't care what people say about our former coach but I (and most others here) think he was a pretty bright individual. He was such a brilliant guy that his X's and O's covered up some of our systemic issues that @slugboy referenced in his brilliant post above. But to roll the dice hoping to get lucky on a guy coaching at a community college somewhere isn't a strategy anymore than buying a lottery ticket is a substitute for financial planning. It may appease the mob but it can do more longterm harm than good. Remember CPJ' defenses and playing for all those different coordinators? How much did that contribute to the ongoing conversations about "simplifying" things for our players?

Would someone take the job? Sure, most people in the age range of 25-40 with wives, kids, mortgages, etc. making $125k would love to come here and make $400-$500k like Thacker and CDP. Even if only for a year or two. We would have probably done the same if given the chance.

WRT GT systematic issues, it comes down to where you believe that the limited academic offering that are all science and technical, high bar for admission, and difficulty staying on track to graduate, even for a non athlete, have a major impact on the sort of players that can succeed here. The people that appreciated CPJ believed the above, and appreciated the commitment to keeping kids in school and earning a degree. While I feel that rule changes and time had kneecapped CPJ' scheme, I think the general idea not trying to match the factories, going after a different type of player, playing smarter through scheme was the best a venue for Tech. I do not think the GC plan of high recruiting is sustainable. Sure he is the shiny new trinket on the block, but how many kids that really have NFL aspirations and ability are going to tolerate the academics when you can go to Clemson and watch grass grow or Mich State and sheep farm? Then there is the whole "processing" aspect that so many GC fan boys were clamoring for. I would likely get banned for saying what I really thought of that concept.

 

[bobongo]

Way too complicated. He just needs to stop acting like a superstar when he’s not. gT alums and fans are put off. Sure give him 7 years to learn how to coach, just stop the annoying stuff.

It would be nice if he would stop the annoying stuff but he's still going to have to win more than 3 games a year.

 

[4shotB]

WRT GT systematic issues, it comes down to where you believe that the limited academic offering that are all science and technical, high bar for admission, and difficulty staying on track to graduate, even for a non athlete, have a major impact on the sort of players that can succeed here.

Then there is the whole "processing" aspect that so many GC fan boys were clamoring for. I would likely get banned for saying what I really thought of that concept.

1) at the end of the day, i think our biggest systemic issue is the fact that the school itself does not really care about athletics. It is either an afterthought at best or a nuisance at worst. I think we have as much money and intellect as anyone else But our resolve or "want to" or whatever you want to call it is weak.

2) In regards to the second quote, thank you for both your self awareness and self control. We have had more than just a few who couldn't or wouldn't recognize the parameters set by the founders of this place.

 

[bobongo]

We can’t hire a name coach because we can’t afford it. I’m just saying we all agree that Thacker and Patenaude stink. So what are we to do? Just wait it out another 4 years? We could definitely do that. Or TStan can fire them and find some cheaper guys who are better or at least not worse. I’d love to be able to hire Venables as DC but we are broke. So where do we go? The good news is that Thacker and Patenaude are so bad that we could get 2 nobodies who could do better. And we’ve already done exactly what I said with Thacker and Patenaude. We just whiffed. Now, we gotta try again. I can tell you that dude at Valdosta State is way better than Patenaude. Heck, I could name 10 high school coaches in south Georgia who could do a better job than Patenaude.

As for your comment “is that how I suggest we run a multimillion dollar business” - of course not. But the decisions that led us to where we are sure aren’t any better than my suggestion. TStan knows he should get rid of this staff but money prevents it so the product will continue to spiral downward. Next season Bobby Dodd will be a ghost town after the first month. That’s no way to run a business either. We are broke but there are plenty of young coaches who would take a low salary that we could try. There is no magic handshake that makes a D1 coach better than a DII coach. We’ve proven that.

What TStan needs to do is earn his salary by getting out there and finding good coaches who have yet to make their names at the P-5 level. I am absolutely certain that they exist, because just about every one of the proven coaches at this level started out at lower levels. Does he know enough about football to do this, or is he at the mercy of conventional knowledge? If he needs help, he could hire some knowledgeable person to help him in his search. Anybody can sit back and rattle off the names of well-known "proven" coaches, whom we can hardly or barely afford. The real challenge is finding someone before they become a big name. As I've said before, we don't have unlimited funds. We have to spend wisely.

And I would argue that we don't have any proven coaches now at HC, DC, or OC. Thacker is useless, Patenaude is mediocre, and Collins is an overpaid recruiter/cheerleader. None of them have demonstrated much coaching ability at all in the jobs they currently hold.

 

[Vespidae]

WRT GT systematic issues, it comes down to where you believe that the limited academic offering that are all science and technical, high bar for admission, and difficulty staying on track to graduate, even for a non athlete, have a major impact on the sort of players that can succeed here. The people that appreciated CPJ believed the above, and appreciated the commitment to keeping kids in school and earning a degree. While I feel that rule changes and time had kneecapped CPJ' scheme, I think the general idea not trying to match the factories, going after a different type of player, playing smarter through scheme was the best a venue for Tech. I do not think the GC plan of high recruiting is sustainable. Sure he is the shiny new trinket on the block, but how many kids that really have NFL aspirations and ability are going to tolerate the academics when you can go to Clemson and watch grass grow or Mich State and sheep farm? Then there is the whole "processing" aspect that so many GC fan boys were clamoring for. I would likely get banned for saying what I really thought of that concept.

Everything old is new again. Every coach, starting with Heisman, has spoken about academics, the need to recruit locally, limited resources, etc.

Yet, when I look at the list of coaches we've had, the most successful seem to be the ones here long enough to figure that out. I do not believe Tech will ever be successful following the model of "hire a coach for five years, good-bye". We are a different kind of place offering a different kind of value. We are not for everyone.

 

[smokey_wasp]

We don’t need nor can afford any known coaches. It is what it is. But, there are a ton of high end football coaches at other levels of football who would gladly take these jobs. We actually tried this route with Collins, even with his 2 years of HC experience at Temple, and we simply missed. The problem was we paid him as if he was a known coach. Go find the top 3 OC’s and DC’s at different levels and interview them. They can’t be any worse than Thacker and Patenaude and maybe we run into something on the cheap. I just looked at some high level DII teams. The current head coach at Valdosta State is a guy named Gary Goff. Apparently his offenses are freaking good especially running the ball. A google search shows he makes around $140,000 per year. You don’t think he’d love an OC P5 job? There are guys like him all over this country. Meanwhile, we have Patenaude. GT needs to be smarter.

So our coordinators we brought up from FBS Group of 5 are no good. So we should go hire even less accomplished coaches. What?

You realize Patenaude was a top OC at Coastal Carolina, so you are just talking about doing the same thing we already did.

 

[bobongo]

So our coordinators we brought up from FBS Group of 5 are no good. So we should go hire even less accomplished coaches. What?

You realize Patenaude was a top OC at Coastal Carolina, so you are just talking about doing the same thing we already did.

Obviously not all coaches from the lower levels are the same. Some are good, and some are bad. We got stuck with some bad to mediocre ones, and now we need to find some good ones. Are you saying good coaches don't exist at the lower levels? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

We ended up with Patenaude and Thacker only because they came with Collins. We simply need someone besides Collins to decide who his assistants will be, because the two he brought with him didn't work out. We need for TStan to earn his salary.

 

[smokey_wasp]

Obviously not all coaches from the lower levels are the same. Some are good, and some are bad. We got stuck with some bad to mediocre ones, and now we need to find some good ones. Are you saying good coaches don't exist at the lower levels? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

We ended up with Patenaude and Thacker only because they came with Collins. We simply need someone besides Collins to decide who his assistants will be, because the two he brought with him didn't work out. We need for TStan to earn his salary.

Not saying there aren't good coaches at lower levels. But just bringing in unproven guys until you find a diamond in the rough is throwing spaghetti against the wall and hoping it sticks. It's not an actual plan. If you need an upgrade, spend the money and upgrade.

 

[bobongo]

Not saying there aren't good coaches at lower levels. But just bringing in unproven guys until you find a diamond in the rough is throwing spaghetti against the wall and hoping it sticks.

No, it isn't. You find somebody who knows how to coach and knows what he's talking about and you hire him. You find somebody good and give him the job. Nobody said there are any guarantees. But you can get a good idea. You can proceed with the knowledge that there's a good chance somebody will work out. Now, if you can get someone who's proven at the P-5 level, and if you can afford him, I say go for it. But barring that, you need to find someone at the lower levels who knows what he's doing. And there's no guarantee that even a "proven" coach will work out.

Any good hiring manager knows that hiring should be a much more informed process than throwing spaghetti against a wall and hoping. If it's either that or hiring a name coach, well most anybody could do it. But it isn't that at all. It's getting good advice from trusted analysts and doing your job and working hard to find somebody good who is the right fit. It takes work, and it takes smarts. I hope TStan is up to the task. It's what he's paid for.

 

[4shotB]

No, it isn't. You find somebody who knows how to coach and knows what he's talking about and you hire him. You find somebody good and give him the job.

It's getting good advice from trusted analysts and doing your job and working hard to find somebody good who is the right fit. It takes work, and it takes smarts. I hope TStan is up to the task. It's what he's paid for.

I think on the surface what you say makes sense. But, if it were true, why wasn't CPJ able to do it with his DC's? Or the people at Michigan or UT Austin or Nebraska or UT Knoxville or UM or FSU with way more resources than we have at our disposal failed at it consistently? The answer (I believe) is that NOBODY has a recipe for succesful hiring in this field. It's a crapshoot at best and when done wrong, hurts more than helps. It's a bandaid used by weak AD's to create the illusion of change and buying themselves a few more yeaars in their jobs.

 

[T-Bone Burdell]

Bill Lewis, the guy whose name people won't even type out on message boards, had 11 wins in 3 seasons.
Just throwin' that out there.

 

[bke1984]

Looking back at the contract details this dude go the deal of a lifetime.

So if we fire him before the end of the 2022 season he would get the following

2022 3.3M
2023 3.4M
2024 3.5M
2025 3.6M

If we fire him the day after the 2022 season he gets this

2022 3.3M (paid to coach)
2023 2.4M
2024 2.4M
2025 2.4M

So the savings is 3.3M by waiting until the end of next year. Basically it’s a boatload of money either way, and if attendance keeps declining it’s hard to justify not eating the delta.

I can’t understand why schools like us would agree to these kind of buyouts. He basically got a 7 year guaranteed contract.

Geoff Collins’ contract averages $3.3 million annually

Georgia Tech coach Geoff Collins’ seven-year contract averages $3.3 million and begins at $3 million for the 2019 season, about $152,000 less than former coach Paul Johnson was scheduled to make in this coming season. Collins’ pay will increase by $100,000 over the life of his seven-year...

www.ajc.com

 

[bobongo]

I think on the surface what you say makes sense. But, if it were true, why wasn't CPJ able to do it with his DC's? Or the people at Michigan or UT Austin or Nebraska or UT Knoxville or UM or FSU with way more resources than we have at our disposal failed at it consistently? The answer (I believe) is that NOBODY has a recipe for succesful hiring in this field. It's a crapshoot at best and when done wrong, hurts more than helps. It's a bandaid used by weak AD's to create the illusion of change and buying themselves a few more yeaars in their jobs.

Of course there are those that couldn't do it. We simply need to be smarter than the average bear. Isn't that what it's all about?
TStan is up to bat, now. It's time for him to earn his keep or he'll be the next one out the door.

 

[bobongo]

Bill Lewis, the guy whose name people won't even type out on message boards, had 11 wins in 3 seasons.
Just throwin' that out there.

One more season like his first three and we'll be typing the cheerleader's name G**** C******

 

[Animal02]

I think on the surface what you say makes sense. But, if it were true, why wasn't CPJ able to do it with his DC's? Or the people at Michigan or UT Austin or Nebraska or UT Knoxville or UM or FSU with way more resources than we have at our disposal failed at it consistently? The answer (I believe) is that NOBODY has a recipe for succesful hiring in this field. It's a crapshoot at best and when done wrong, hurts more than helps. It's a bandaid used by weak AD's to create the illusion of change and buying themselves a few more yeaars in their jobs.

Last time I looked at the stats, the average lifespan of a D1 coach at a school is 5 years. So yes, it is a crap shoot.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

So our coordinators we brought up from FBS Group of 5 are no good. So we should go hire even less accomplished coaches. What?

You realize Patenaude was a top OC at Coastal Carolina, so you are just talking about doing the same thing we already did.

Yes, I’m absolutely saying we should continue to find cheap young coaches until we find one that is legit. We can go thru many of these for a lesser price tag than getting a loser retread (like we did under CPJ). We took a shot with Patenaude and he stinks. Cut bait and go to the next one. There is no real alternative because we can’t afford a proven guy.

Our choices are 1) ride it out another 4 year with these guys, 2) fire the OC and DC and hire proven D1 guys (not gonna happen), 3) hire mediocre D1 coordinators at a big price tag, 4) try a young cheap guy and if he sucks hire the next cheap young guy.

Does anyone remember we had Spurrier on staff and let him go to Duke and the rest is history. But I’m sure we’ll hire a retread OC and DC and dig ourselves deeper into the financial hole.

 

[MWBATL]

Summary:

1. If you fire Collins, you need to attract a good or great coach.
2. To attract a good or great coach, you have to make them think this is a place where they can and will succeed and would want to be.
3. You have to make any prospective coaches think this is a good place to be before you fire Collins. Doing that after you fire Collins is too late to get them to come here.
4. We haven’t done #2 yet.
5. One of the ways to accomplish point 2 is to make a concerted effort to fix what’s wrong with our program right now.
6. This is a c*** situation, but you have to deal with the situation you’re in as it is and not as you’d like it to be.
7. The buyout is a financial issue, but job desirability is a bigger one, so we have to fix our environment here.

So, maybe I missed it (I probably did) but exactly how do you suggest that we fix what is wrong with our program right now? How do we make it more attractive? Money? Or something else? Our current trajectory clearly is causing fans to revolt and attendance to decline, so there isn't the atmosphere of an SEC football stadium to make our program attractive. What is it then that you propose we do?

 

[Jmonty71]

I have 0 respect for Collins.....0.... He is completely clueless and worst, he doesn't realize it. He reminds me of a politician, that has a bad agenda and instead of saying they failed.....they just move the goal posts and sell the same bad plan. The only person that's worse, in this, is our AD. Signing an untested HC for 7 years, is stupid..... Bad decision after bad decision after bad decision..... At some point, we have to stop making bad decisions....

 

[LibertyTurns]

@bke1984 If we’re considering switching coaches this year which I think is unlikely, we’re going to need to “Hewitt” the contract. We’re going to need to take the $14M and spread it out over 8 or 10 years. 3K GT supporters gave $2.9M this past year specifically to keep us from defaulting on our bills or drawing on a line of credit. I think between renewed interest in the program & folks willing to fork over more, it could be possible. That being said, if we eat 1 more year of this we end up only needing to pay off $7M. You could pay that off fairly quickly, maybe 4 years or less.

This brings up the #2 conundrum. I know assistants generally are not promised anything & usually are on 1 year deals, but we already ran Woody out of town after 1 year. If we can coordinators, then a year later cashier our coach & he gets rid of all of them, well maybe he finds a difficult time because outside of all the other challenges GT presents, job instability is not there either.

The budget is a definite issue. We lost almost $3M last fiscal year despite severely reduced operations and I believe salary cuts. We needed emergency fundraising to make it up. I’m guessing we’ll be $1M or more in the hole this year (hoping the Benz deal is worth $1M/yr), probably worst case $3M in the red. Can’t find a recent financial report & am guessing based on past history, projecting football revenue losses due to poor gate/season ticket sales. I’m also thinking more people are going to be sitting on their wallets Given our troubles and no plan.

My bet: the entire staff is here next year. They’ll have 1 more year to turn it around & Tstan is going to have a very hard year if things go poorly. He’d better hope for a miracle 6-6 record.

 

[MWBATL]

Financially, we REALLY need for Collins to succeed.

I just am not seeing the progression OR the attitude that I think is necessary to make it.

Hope I'm wrong.