He Gets It

[JacketFromUGA]

Because those valid reasons didn't save the last HC, and didn't save they the defensive coordinators. Those legitimate reasons become excuses when they are used to try and cover up valid criticisms. We're 10 years in and our passing game is horrid and our defense is terrible, and none of that gets put at the feat of the HC by too many of our fans. That's when valid reasons become excuses. Just like the valid reasons for recruiting being hard here don't make the argument that Johnson is a poor recruiter any less. Too many people refuse to accept that our struggles recruiting are a combination of those valid reasons and a poor recruiting coach. We can't do much about the former. We can do something about the latter. But not if our fanbase continue to act like it's the weather that is the reason we were bad last year.

In the last 6 years Johnson is 25-23 in conference and 42-35 overall.
In the 6 years his predecessor was here he was 28-20 in conference and 44-32 overall.

Johnson should have a bonfire under his seat right now. Instead he has an extension and fanbase that are already setting up excuses for 3 years down the road.

Sounds like you may want to take a year off.

There are plenty of valid critiques of CPJ and his program. No one is arguing there aren’t but those critiques don’t add up to someone else could do better in a lot of people’s minds.

If GT were turning down Urban Meyer, Scott Frost, and Kirby Smart in favor of CPJ then I think more of the fan base might agree with you.

I’ll take 10 years of a bit up and down with some pretty great ups though and be excited knowing that every year is a new year.

 

[ilovetheoption]

Because those valid reasons didn't save the last HC, and didn't save they the defensive coordinators. Those legitimate reasons become excuses when they are used to try and cover up valid criticisms. We're 10 years in and our passing game is horrid and our defense is terrible, and none of that gets put at the feat of the HC by too many of our fans. That's when valid reasons become excuses. Just like the valid reasons for recruiting being hard here don't make the argument that Johnson is a poor recruiter any less. Too many people refuse to accept that our struggles recruiting are a combination of those valid reasons and a poor recruiting coach. We can't do much about the former. We can do something about the latter. But not if our fanbase continue to act like it's the weather that is the reason we were bad last year.

In the last 6 years Johnson is 25-23 in conference and 42-35 overall.
In the 6 years his predecessor was here he was 28-20 in conference and 44-32 overall.

Johnson should have a bonfire under his seat right now. Instead he has an extension and fanbase that are already setting up excuses for 3 years down the road.

Again, I think this is largely fair. At best, your can say that CPJ is not an impact recruiter.

You can make the argument that schools largely recruit the level of player that they recruit, independent of who is coaching. the argument is roughly that unless a coach is a spectacular recruiter, or an awful recruiter, most coaches are going to recruit at about the same level at any given school. Thus the argument is that cpj isn't a spectacular recruiter, and that's it.

I don't know if I buy it. I think it's probably true to some degree, but I also don't think Paul Johnson is going to be a homerun recruiter no matter where he goes. His offense is simply unattractive to a lot of high-level kids who think they're going to play in the NFL.

Now, the job of a coach isn't to recruit. The job of a coach is to win, and good recruiting is simply a common tool useful to winning. if you can win without good recruiting, good recruiting doesn't matter.

Similar is effective passing. the point of having a good passing game is to score points. If you're scoring points without a good passing game a good passing game doesn't matter.

I think we can say that Paul Johnson has proven he can score points.

To my mind, he's only proven he can win a little bit better than average.

It remains to be seen weather his lack of elite recruiting can be overcome with consistent winning seasons.

10 years is a plenty big sample size. Coach Johnson and his predecessors have a much different standard deviation, but about the same mean.

As a head coach, if he doesn't find a defensive coordinator who can produce, either by xs and os or defensive recruiting, I think it's reasonable to say that if Chan Gailey wasn't good enough, then a guy who equals chan Gaileys results isn't good enough either.

This, of course, assumes that from a Fan's point of view two 5-5 seasons are the same as a 10-O season and an 0-10 season. I'm not sure that's a valid assumption

 

[coldbeer]

Who has been a great recruiter at GT?

All of the coaches we have had over the last 50 years have struggled with getting elite talent at GT.

Unless we get 20,000 more fans each game, more Coeds on campus, and maybe some easier majors - that wont change under CPJ or the next coach.



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[dressedcheeseside]

Same average but higher highs (beating Ugag 3x, ACC Champs, OB Champs) is not equal in my book.

 

[Animal02]

Who has been a great recruiter at GT?

All of the coaches we have had over the last 50 years have struggled with getting elite talent at GT.

Unless we get 20,000 more fans each game, more Coeds on campus, and maybe some easier majors - that wont change under CPJ or the next coach.



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Agree with just about everything......but isn't the M/F ratio about even now? Compare to the 10-1 when I was there, the 60-1 when my older brother was there.........and were women even allowed at Tech when Supersize was there?

 

[LongforDodd]

Maybe the sponsor(Sweetwater I’m looking at you) will donate a portion of the construction costs.

.....

I think that is where large vehicles are brought into BDS so maybe that area can’t be blocked...

Is the conversation centered around putting the beer garden on the upper level?

There is no problem presented in this beer garden proposal in BDS that columns and beams can't fix. It's time to get creative.

 

[AUFC]

While your idea may be spot on, I really can't think of any teams building new stadiums. Or who have recently. I doubt that many schools have the means or desire to do so. Iirc, the U switched stadiums but they didn't fund their new one, they just moved to a different pro venue.

Tulane, Colorado State, and Houston all have new stadiums and that’s just what immediately comes to mind. I’m sure there are more. UCF’s is pretty new iirc?

Would be interesting to read some thoughts from LA Chargers fans on their experiences watching NFL at StubHub Center (one of the earlier SSSs though, they’ve certainly evolved into what we’re seeing now in Orlando, DC, LAFC, and next year Minnesota.

 

[slugboy]

Who has been a great recruiter at GT?

All of the coaches we have had over the last 50 years have struggled with getting elite talent at GT.

Unless we get 20,000 more fans each game, more Coeds on campus, and maybe some easier majors - that wont change under CPJ or the next coach.



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The coach can make a big difference in recruiting. James Franklin improved Vandy’s recruiting while he was there. He’s improved Penn State’s recruiting. Vandy had never recruited well, until they did.
https://247sports.com/Bolt/The-rise-of-Penn-State-recruiting-under-James-Franklin-53200119/

A good or great recruiter is going to talk about what he HAS, not about what he doesn’t. Otherwise, would Boise State have become a top 25 football program for a while?

We’ve sent linemen, running backs, and a lot of receivers to the NFL. That should answer the “I don’t want to play in the triple option” questions. There are plenty of triple option QBs, and CPJ should get his pick of them.

The campus climate has really improved, and the school is and should be a selling point.

Back to the question on CPJ:
1. He’s a great offensive coach and one of the biggest innovators of the last 40 years. Even coaches who don’t adopt the entire scheme have been affected, and he’s got an impressive coaching tree compared to anyone but Saban
2. He’s probably a below average recruiter. Coaching at Navy hid that, because they get generally the same athletes regardless of the coach. But with the offense he has, you should see a bump in overall recruiting, but it’s been flat. We should be getting 5-star backs in this offense
3. He’s a great game day coach. He can make great in game adjustments (but last year stands out as an exception)
4. He hasn’t managed the other parts of the program well. Special teams and defense have been below average at best. Also, if you’re planning to find talent others are overlooking, your strength and conditioning should be better than your opponents.
5. If you have a scheme that overcomes recruiting gaps, then you shouldn’t have a depth problem. For example, if we don’t need the same kind of wide receiver as other teams, then we should have plenty of our kind of receiver and be able to swap them out. Aside from the A-backs, our players aren’t really interchangeable. He’s not covering his weaknesses well.

1 and 3 are far enough above average to make him an above average coach, but recruiting and program management are weighing down his overall results. Maybe TStan can compensate for the gaps


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[dressedcheeseside]

The coach can make a big difference in recruiting. James Franklin improved Vandy’s recruiting while he was there. He’s improved Penn State’s recruiting. Vandy had never recruited well, until they did.
https://247sports.com/Bolt/The-rise-of-Penn-State-recruiting-under-James-Franklin-53200119/

A good or great recruiter is going to talk about what he HAS, not about what he doesn’t. Otherwise, would Boise State have become a top 25 football program for a while?

We’ve sent linemen, running backs, and a lot of receivers to the NFL. That should answer the “I don’t want to play in the triple option” questions. There are plenty of triple option QBs, and CPJ should get his pick of them.

The campus climate has really improved, and the school is and should be a selling point.

Back to the question on CPJ:
1. He’s a great offensive coach and one of the biggest innovators of the last 40 years. Even coaches who don’t adopt the entire scheme have been affected, and he’s got an impressive coaching tree compared to anyone but Saban
2. He’s probably a below average recruiter. Coaching at Navy hid that, because they get generally the same athletes regardless of the coach. But with the offense he has, you should see a bump in overall recruiting, but it’s been flat. We should be getting 5-star backs in this offense
3. He’s a great game day coach. He can make great in game adjustments (but last year stands out as an exception)
4. He hasn’t managed the other parts of the program well. Special teams and defense have been below average at best. Also, if you’re planning to find talent others are overlooking, your strength and conditioning should be better than your opponents.
5. If you have a scheme that overcomes recruiting gaps, then you shouldn’t have a depth problem. For example, if we don’t need the same kind of wide receiver as other teams, then we should have plenty of our kind of receiver and be able to swap them out. Aside from the A-backs, our players aren’t really interchangeable. He’s not covering his weaknesses well.

1 and 3 are far enough above average to make him an above average coach, but recruiting and program management are weighing down his overall results. Maybe TStan can compensate for the gaps


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Franklin’s methods at Vandy we’re questionable at best, unethical at worst. I don’t want to compromise ethically to win football games.

 

[wesgt123]

Franklin’s methods at Vandy we’re questionable at best, unethical at worst. I don’t want to compromise ethically to win football games.

What was unethical? He seems like an alright dude in my opinion

 

[Buzztheirazz]

Is the conversation centered around putting the beer garden on the upper level?

There is no problem presented in this beer garden proposal in BDS that columns and beams can't fix. It's time to get creative.

Hadn't really considered that but if it could connect the lower and upper sections of the north and west stands that would be pretty awesome as well.

I’m sure it won’t happen but it is damn sure fun to speculate. I’m pretty confident that most people are a little late to enter the game due to slamming in one last adult beverage. May help to get people inside a little sooner.

I also think if it had TV’s for other games in it and food it could basically be a sports bar that is open before and after the games for X amount of time.

 

[sidewalkGTfan]

Couple of things....

1) Even if we had a coach that recruited at a slightly higher level, it doesn’t automatically equate to having a better team or more wins at the end of the day. There’s been plenty of schools that have outrecruited us during his tenure that have had far less success than he’s had.

2) If you completely set aside head coaches, our program and resources have been a lot closer to the Wake Forests of the world than the Bamas. In today’s college football, it takes a lot more than a good coach to have a successful program. Clemson and Dabo are a good example. Dabo has turned out to be a really good coach but that school also decided to pour a crazy amount of resources and money into that program that they weren’t doing before. It feels like our AD and the GTAA have finally started to figure this part of the equation out.

 

[lv20gt]

Who has been a great recruiter at GT?

When has CPJ ever been a great recruiter?

Just because a great recruiter wouldn't turn us into bama doesn't mean there isn't a lot of room for improvement in that area.

 

[slugboy]

Franklin’s methods at Vandy we’re questionable at best, unethical at worst. I don’t want to compromise ethically to win football games.

I don’t like Franklin as a coach. I’ve talked to a good-natured former player of his, and he didn’t love the guy. I’m citing him as a clear example of how a coach can significantly change recruiting fortunes.
I could have used other coaches as examples. Richt sure seems to be out recruiting his Miami predecessors. Dabo is out recruiting his Clemson predecessors. That’s improving their teams.
As good as Saban is as a defensive coach, his recruiting at Alabama is possibly the biggest factor in their success, although training is right up there (he and Urban Meyer are fanatic perfectionists).
You can waste players by failing to get the best out of them or putting them in the wrong position, and there are plenty of coaches that recruit well without results. Still, Mack Brown got a championship just off recruiting.
I’d argue a team’s ceiling is whichever is the lowest of (1) scheme, (2) training, (3) raw potential. We do really well in scheme on offense.


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[Technut1990]

Sounds like you may want to take a year off.

There are plenty of valid critiques of CPJ and his program. No one is arguing there aren’t but those critiques don’t add up to someone else could do better in a lot of people’s minds.

If GT were turning down Urban Meyer, Scott Frost, and Kirby Smart in favor of CPJ then I think more of the fan base might agree with you.

I’ll take 10 years of a bit up and down with some pretty great ups though and be excited knowing that every year is a new year.

The point of this statement is very true. I would go further with it though. I do not believe any of these coaches would have the reputation they enjoy had they started their careers at Tech. They all would spend 10 years trying to talk the program into spending millions of dollars on player perks and when they did get a player here that player would still have to deal with the academic stresses. Translation, the factory schools aren’t getting recruits that are there to learn how to build the next space shuttle .

 

[Eastman]

Because those valid reasons didn't save the last HC, and didn't save they the defensive coordinators. Those legitimate reasons become excuses when they are used to try and cover up valid criticisms. We're 10 years in and our passing game is horrid and our defense is terrible, and none of that gets put at the feat of the HC by too many of our fans. That's when valid reasons become excuses. Just like the valid reasons for recruiting being hard here don't make the argument that Johnson is a poor recruiter any less. Too many people refuse to accept that our struggles recruiting are a combination of those valid reasons and a poor recruiting coach. We can't do much about the former. We can do something about the latter. But not if our fanbase continue to act like it's the weather that is the reason we were bad last year.

In the last 6 years Johnson is 25-23 in conference and 42-35 overall.
In the 6 years his predecessor was here he was 28-20 in conference and 44-32 overall.

Johnson should have a bonfire under his seat right now. Instead he has an extension and fanbase that are already setting up excuses for 3 years down the road.

I don’t follow your initial reasoning. As I said I am all for legitimate criticism. Not finding a good defensive coordinator is legitimate if he was supplied with what was needed to obtain one. Saying “those legitimate reasons become excuses when they are used to try and and cover up valid criticism” doesn’t make sense to me. If it is legitimate, it is legitimate. My point was that some people act as if Tech should be able to recruit (for example) on the same level as schools that are not as hamstrung as Tech. When history shows that no Tech coach has recruited on the level of for example the dwags, then to criticize CPJ as if he should be able to do so is not rational.

 

[lv20gt]

My point was that some people act as if Tech should be able to recruit (for example) on the same level as schools that are not as hamstrung as Tech. When history shows that no Tech coach has recruited on the level of for example the dwags, then to criticize CPJ as if he should be able to do so is not rational.

And people try to act like the only reason we struggle to recruit is because of those limitations and pretend that Johnson himself isn't also an issue in that regard. We do have limitations that hurt us in recruiting. We also have a poor head coach for recruiting. When you try to deny the second and blame it all on the first, then yes, those reasons become excuses.

 

[forensicbuzz]

And people try to act like the only reason we struggle to recruit is because of those limitations and pretend that Johnson himself isn't also an issue in that regard. We do have limitations that hurt us in recruiting. We also have a poor head coach for recruiting. When you try to deny the second and blame it all on the first, then yes, those reasons become excuses.

The problem as I see it is that we KNOW there are issues that GT has to overcome in recruiting. These are the things that everybody brings up any time the poor recruiting flag is thrown. These are going to be factors for some of the kids we recruit and they won't be factors for some other kids we recruit. Historically (last 30-40 years), Tech hasn't recruited at the same level as most of the big boys. Usually, when we go up against what is considered a factory today, we lose. That hasn't really depended on who the coach is.

Now, I've read over and over that Paul Johnson is not a good recruiter. People state this like it's a fact. When someone points out other reasons our recruiting might not be as good as it "should" be, often times they get labeled a Johnsonian or a Johnson apologist or a Johnson-lover, etc. Well, I challenge ANYONE who says Paul Johnson is a bad recruiter, not a good recruiter, poor recruiter, or whatever other language you want to use to provide some concrete comments from recruits or high school coaches that point to Paul Johnson being a bad recruiter (or whatever you want to call it).

I don't know if he's a good recruiter or a poor recruiter. I think he's been about as successful as most Tech coaches have been (accounting for obstacles) here. That's just my feel based on the talent I see on the field and my understanding of how APR works now. But every time I read or hear comments about Paul Johnson from a recruit, it's about how personable he is, how funny he is, how approachable he is, how honest he is, how knowledgeable he is, etc.

Could he do better, I don't know, but I'm tired of people making statements about his ability to recruit solely based on some recruiting service metric. We've had some pretty good talent come through GT the past 10 years.

 

[slugboy]

I don’t think you’ll find many comments from players that any coach is a bad recruiter. We don’t have to put a lot of emphasis on star ratings.
What you will see is losing recruits to other schools, particularly recruits we’ve offered scholarships to or have committed. Ignore Alabama; head to head against Duke or UNC or UVA or NCState for the same player, how have we done for the past 10 years? Even when we were ranked?
Or think about Dabo as a salesman for the Clemson program vs CPJ here. Dabo had a pizza party for Clemson in the NC year. Or how Pastner sells the basketball program. That has impact with the fans and the players, and it’s clearly not CPJ’s strength.
Selling your program and creating excitement about what you’re doing is a critical part of recruiting. Successful recruiters reinforce that message through the press and through any channels they have.
I’m not a CPJ-hater. He’s just got some weaknesses. And it’s not likely we’ll change a coach who’s been this way for decades
TStan’s job would be a lot easier if CPJ were more of a booster and salesman for his own program. And TStan does get it. There are places that CPJ doesn’t get it though, or if he does then he needs someone to do what he’s not able to do. As it is, TStan is going to have to do that boosting for the football program, or put in support services to make that happen.


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[Milwaukee]

Now, I've read over and over that Paul Johnson is not a good recruiter. People state this like it's a fact. When someone points out other reasons our recruiting might not be as good as it "should" be, often times they get labeled a Johnsonian or a Johnson apologist or a Johnson-lover, etc. Well, I challenge ANYONE who says Paul Johnson is a bad recruiter, not a good recruiter, poor recruiter, or whatever other language you want to use to provide some concrete comments from recruits or high school coaches that point to Paul Johnson being a bad recruiter (or whatever you want to call it

I'm a Johnsonian and hope he never leaves. But it's extremely obvious that he's not a good recruiter. He gets a lot done with a little, he would be winning multiple nattys at a factory like Nebraska or Michigan though. I firmly believe that. The "proof" that you're looking for is right in front of you, you shouldn't have to hear it from an 18yr old kid to "believe" it. "Some recruiting service metric" as you put it is pretty black and white. That same metric wasn't questioned when Giff Smith had the 2007 haul that brought us a title. Heck no, we celebrated that class immediately because it was ranked 14th or 11th, cant remember. Most Tech fans only say it's not important because we keep hauling in middle of the road classes, it's the optimistic thing to say as a fan and I understand that. But it's not accurate.

Recruiting has been abysmal under PJ, it's just not his forte. I want us to bring in a young good recruiter to run that but I don't want PJ to leave Tech until he retires. I love him as our coach, flaws and all.