Wesley Wells

jojatk

jojatk

Helluva Engineer
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1,517
Whiskey_Clear said:
Not usually. It typically starts with a statement of opinion. And then that opinion gets quoted and challenged. Then it becomes a debate.

You also seem to be confusing a consensus of opinion as a debate which is an incongruous position. Does “listening to understand” mean that others should listen to my point to understand and agree? Or does it mean I should listen to others to understand and agree with them? Or both?

And are you sure who “pounced” first?
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I took some time to digest what you said. Here's a few comments about my observations:

1) Yes of course the threads typically start with a statement of opinion and then, instead of there being what I termed "conversation" it instantly becomes an argument/debate. I wish sometimes it would take a bit longer to get to the argument/debate stage.

2) I actually didn't mean you specifically when I talked about pouncing, but I see when re-reading my post that it looks that way. I'm saying both sides pounce and the you was meant to be generic. The debate/arguing has nothing to do with which "side" a poster is taking. It is about the way in which people are speaking AT each other. And frequently I observe people ARE speaking AT one another and not WITH one another.

3) I don't believe I'm confusing a consensus of opinion as a debate at all. And that's mainly because there doesn't seem to be consensus of opinion. Perhaps you meant an attempt to build a consensus. But even if that's the case then many of you don't use a tone of consensus building but rather a tone of challenge. That may not be how it is intended but it sure as heck comes out that way pretty frequently. And similarly to point 1 above I am not meaning you specifically but I am referring to many of the posters. And at times I mean me, too.

4) Listening to understand means exactly what it says, and no more. It doesn't indicate you have to agree. In fact many times I listen very closely and think about what was said and it actually strengthens my belief in my position because I take the time to think about it, see if it matches my viewpoints and what I think of as facts (and sometimes makes me go back and do more research into those things I think/thought are/were facts), and that renewed research almost always opens my eyes even further and many times I see even more clearly what I thought I saw before.

Look, this is a message board. I have been around message boards since they started as a very active participant. I know people are going to argue. People are going to debate. And that's some of what's great about message boards. I just wish it didn't ALWAYS have to be an argument/debate where someone feels they have to win and belittle others in the process.
 
jojatk

jojatk

Helluva Engineer
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1,517
Animal02 said:
Just another symptom of the "new board" Some cannot tolerate any disagreement with the new regime.
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In actuality it's not new at all. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the "new regime." The extremity of the division has been going on since, I think, Chan Gailey became our head coach. I didn't see it as much until then. That's when the vehemence began to take center stage. Make no mistake. The only difference between the threads during the previous regime and the new regime is which side folks were on. There was just as much bickering and there was just as much intolerance for disagreement with the previous regime. The roles have just reversed. That's the only difference.
 
Whiskey_Clear

Whiskey_Clear

Banned
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10,486
jojatk said:
I took some time to digest what you said. Here's a few comments about my observations:

1) Yes of course the threads typically start with a statement of opinion and then, instead of there being what I termed "conversation" it instantly becomes an argument/debate. I wish sometimes it would take a bit longer to get to the argument/debate stage.

2) I actually didn't mean you specifically when I talked about pouncing, but I see when re-reading my post that it looks that way. I'm saying both sides pounce and the you was meant to be generic. The debate/arguing has nothing to do with which "side" a poster is taking. It is about the way in which people are speaking AT each other. And frequently I observe people ARE speaking AT one another and not WITH one another.

3) I don't believe I'm confusing a consensus of opinion as a debate at all. And that's mainly because there doesn't seem to be consensus of opinion. Perhaps you meant an attempt to build a consensus. But even if that's the case then many of you don't use a tone of consensus building but rather a tone of challenge. That may not be how it is intended but it sure as heck comes out that way pretty frequently. And similarly to point 1 above I am not meaning you specifically but I am referring to many of the posters. And at times I mean me, too.

4) Listening to understand means exactly what it says, and no more. It doesn't indicate you have to agree. In fact many times I listen very closely and think about what was said and it actually strengthens my belief in my position because I take the time to think about it, see if it matches my viewpoints and what I think of as facts (and sometimes makes me go back and do more research into those things I think/thought are/were facts), and that renewed research almost always opens my eyes even further and many times I see even more clearly what I thought I saw before.

Look, this is a message board. I have been around message boards since they started as a very active participant. I know people are going to argue. People are going to debate. And that's some of what's great about message boards. I just wish it didn't ALWAYS have to be an argument/debate where someone feels they have to win and belittle others in the process.
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I agree with pretty much all of this. It would be a better forum if everyone had this perspective. But it doesn’t. And I’m not going to bind myself to a moral high ground of decorum when others are taking personal shots, misconstruing comments, dissembling them, or simply trying to shut opposing viewpoints down.

I appreciate your perspective though.
 
Whiskey_Clear

Whiskey_Clear

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10,486
jojatk said:
In actuality it's not new at all. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the "new regime." The extremity of the division has been going on since, I think, Chan Gailey became our head coach. I didn't see it as much until then. That's when the vehemence began to take center stage. Make no mistake. The only difference between the threads during the previous regime and the new regime is which side folks were on. There was just as much bickering and there was just as much intolerance for disagreement with the previous regime. The roles have just reversed. That's the only difference.
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Disagree here. Arguments were rampant but there is a new...”you must agree or shut up” vibe that is very prevalent now that didn’t exist pre CGC.
 
dressedcheeseside

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
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14,219
RonJohn said:
He was a true freshman last year. Watching him warm up throughout the year he had issues early in the year. I don't know for sure, but I assume it took him some time to get used to kicking without a block. He looked better warming up each game.

King apparently still wasn't healthy last year. The FG he missed on Saturday was far offline, but it went into the first/second row of seats pretty hard. If it had been online, it would have probably been good to 55-60 yards.

I say leave it up to the coaches to decide who to use, and in what situations to use them.
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If his leg is so strong, why can’t he kick deeper than the 5 on kickoffs!
 
RonJohn

RonJohn

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4,995
dressedcheeseside said:
If his leg is so strong, why can’t he kick deeper than the 5 on kickoffs!
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Don't know, but look at his hs highlights.



The first kickoff shown at the 16 second mark goes through the uprights. HS kickoffs are 5 yards shorter, but most of the kickoffs in his hs video go to the end line, so would have been 5 yards deep from a college spot. It could be the difference in tee height between hs and college. It could be related to his injuries. It could be mental. I have no idea, I just know that there is video evidence that he has had a very strong leg before.
 
jojatk

jojatk

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,517
Whiskey_Clear said:
Disagree here. Arguments were rampant but there is a new...”you must agree or shut up” vibe that is very prevalent now that didn’t exist pre CGC.
Click to expand...

You are free to disagree but as a third party who sits right in the middle I believe that your observation is inaccurate. To me, and I am an avowed fanboy of both our previous AND current staffs, I saw exactly that same vibe the last 11 years just pointed in the other direction. It didn’t start that way but, boy oh boy has it been that “agree or shut up” for the last 4-5.


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jojatk

jojatk

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,517
Whiskey_Clear said:
Disagree here. Arguments were rampant but there is a new...”you must agree or shut up” vibe that is very prevalent now that didn’t exist pre CGC.
Click to expand...

BTW I think this is a good example of discussion/conversation. We disagree but we aren’t speaking AT one another but with one another and I appreciate that.


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Animal02

Banned
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6,269
Location
Southeastern Michigan
jojatk said:
You are free to disagree but as a third party who sits right in the middle I believe that your observation is inaccurate. To me, and I am an avowed fanboy of both our previous AND current staffs, I saw exactly that same vibe the last 11 years just pointed in the other direction. It didn’t start that way but, boy oh boy has it been that “agree or shut up” for the last 4-5.


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There has been an influx of new posters since the new regime that certainly took the shut up and sit in the back of the bus attitude. Prior to that, most discussions ended with a "agree to disagree" (with the exception when wrecks would sneak in)
 
LibertyTurns

LibertyTurns

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6,216
jojatk said:
You are free to disagree but as a third party who sits right in the middle I believe that your observation is inaccurate. To me, and I am an avowed fanboy of both our previous AND current staffs, I saw exactly that same vibe the last 11 years just pointed in the other direction. It didn’t start that way but, boy oh boy has it been that “agree or shut up” for the last 4-5.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
You’re spot on. Since about 2014 it has been like a civil war except frequently not so civil.
 
Whiskey_Clear

Whiskey_Clear

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Messages
10,486
jojatk said:
You are free to disagree but as a third party who sits right in the middle I believe that your observation is inaccurate. To me, and I am an avowed fanboy of both our previous AND current staffs, I saw exactly that same vibe the last 11 years just pointed in the other direction. It didn’t start that way but, boy oh boy has it been that “agree or shut up” for the last 4-5.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I challenge you to go back and dig up just two examples of what you allege. Find them and quote them here.
 
LongforDodd

LongforDodd

LatinxBreakfastTacos
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3,193
RonJohn said:
Don't know, but look at his hs highlights.



The first kickoff shown at the 16 second mark goes through the uprights. HS kickoffs are 5 yards shorter, but most of the kickoffs in his hs video go to the end line, so would have been 5 yards deep from a college spot. It could be the difference in tee height between hs and college. It could be related to his injuries. It could be mental. I have no idea, I just know that there is video evidence that he has had a very strong leg before.
Click to expand...

King has to have injured his leg between Sr year HS and today from which he has not recovered his leg strength. He doesn't show a super powerful kicking motion but the results in HS were impressive.
 
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