Legitimate observation/question

[Animal02]

For those touting 3 years before the miracle transformation should take place, what is your basis? I'll remind you that football and basketball transformations are quite different due to numbers alone (24 versus 5). A 3 year basketball turnaround. No doubt. Under the same exact circumstances, a 3 year football turnaround is absolute fantasy unless you're coaching pee-wee football.

If you're strictly talking about the defensive side of the ball, then I'll give that to you. That is a quasi-realistic expectation that is attainable due to the nature of defensive football. Read, react, attack.

As for the offensive side of the ball, you're confusing fandom expectations with the harsh reality of not having an OL conducive to run the proposed offense that the new staff wants to run, as well as a QB that feels confident enough to stand in the pocket behind said inexperienced OL.

3 years of CGC recruits provides us with, at best, RS-Sophs manning positions across the board leaving the remaining positions from the previous regime. Again people are claiming that we don't have the personnel to line up against our opponents, yet the same people are stating 3 years is the magic number for success. It just seems a bit difficult and foolish to reconcile the two.

I think it is two different groups....there is the group that thinks the personnel were not all that bad and the new regime should have been able to adapt to be competitive......then there are the idol worshipers who insist we must wait 6-8 years for results.

 

[Animal02]

Minnesota and Baylor weren't ditching the 3O and didn't have rosters packed with 3O personnel...
Monken was a 3O coach hired to replace a 3O coach and inherited players recruited to play in a 3) scheme...
Clemson's recruiting was excellent before Dabo ever got there, and he wasn't overhauling offensive scheme. The indictment on the former coach was he never utilized the talent he had...
Orgeron also inherited a team with a history of top 10 recruiting classes and has an unstoppable offense but also a defense that just surrendered 600+ yards to a mediocre Texas A&M team...

I am not sure you are making realistic comparisons...

I think the "unsuitable players" mantra far overblown. There is no reason in the work we should have lost to Citadel and got steamrolled by VT.

 

[JorgeJonas]

Minnesota and Baylor weren't ditching the 3O and didn't have rosters packed with 3O personnel...
Monken was a 3O coach hired to replace a 3O coach and inherited players recruited to play in a 3) scheme...
Clemson's recruiting was excellent before Dabo ever got there, and he wasn't overhauling offensive scheme. The indictment on the former coach was he never utilized the talent he had...
Orgeron also inherited a team with a history of top 10 recruiting classes and has an unstoppable offense but also a defense that just surrendered 600+ yards to a mediocre Texas A&M team...

I am not sure you are making realistic comparisons...

Minnesota is also not a comparison I would want to make. They’re having a fun season, and no one can take the wins away, but good lord have they been lucky. They have five wins by a combined 25 points (including an overtime win against South Dakota State). If the goal is to build something sustainable, that ain’t it.

Similar criticisms can be made of Baylor, which has five wins by a combined 22 points.

 

[Animal02]

Interesting. I have a friend on staff at USMA who indicated otherwise.

Might be the difference between a player's perspective and a staff perspective.

 

[JacketOff]

Minnesota and Baylor weren't ditching the 3O and didn't have rosters packed with 3O personnel...
Monken was a 3O coach hired to replace a 3O coach and inherited players recruited to play in a 3) scheme...
Clemson's recruiting was excellent before Dabo ever got there, and he wasn't overhauling offensive scheme. The indictment on the former coach was he never utilized the talent he had...
Orgeron also inherited a team with a history of top 10 recruiting classes and has an unstoppable offense but also a defense that just surrendered 600+ yards to a mediocre Texas A&M team...

I am not sure you are making realistic comparisons...

Bronco Mendenhall won 8 in year 3 at UVA after winning *2!* in year 1.
James Franklin won 9 in year 2 at Vandy after winning 6 in year 1 for a team that had won 4 total games in the previous 2 years.
Dan Mullen won 9 games at Miss St. for the first time in 11 seasons in year 2.
Pat Fitzgerald won 9 in year 3 at Northwestern (another one of those urban, academic heavy schools).
Chris Petersen won 12 in year 3 at Washington.

I’m not saying the expectation for CGC and Tech is to win 9+ games in year 3. But there should be a really good idea about whether or not the program is headed in the right direction by year 3. If recruiting stays in or near the top 25, and there’s visible progress on the field on gamedays, then progress is being made, and CGC is doing his job. But there’s no reason to assume this should be a 2-5 win team in year 3 of the transformation based solely on the fact that the transformation is happening in the first place.

 

[Oldgoldandwhite]

Ask Arkansas, Vandy, or the Mississippi Schools.

Well they do have 5 of the top ten in the coaches hot seat. Not counting Arkansas just fired theirs.

 

[Bogey]

So here’s my question: TStan played at Tech. Do you think he’s impressed or ... drinking heavily?

A better question is does anybody think a successful coach like Brent Key, a good friend of CGC who knows him well, would leave a stable position under Saban at UA to work for a "clown", as CGC is portrayed by some?

Sent from my ASUS_Z01RD using Tapatalk

 

[Oldgoldandwhite]

My only concern with all the transition talk, is what are we transitioning to?
If we are transitioning to an offense that uses a run - throw QB fine. But if we need an NFL type QB, then I’m worried. They are few and far between.

 

[ibeattetris]

A better question is does anybody think a successful coach like Brent Key, a good friend of CGC who knows him well, would leave a stable position under Saban at UA to work for a "clown", as CGC is portrayed by some?

Sent from my ASUS_Z01RD using Tapatalk

Promotion, raise, closer to home? I don't know, but I also don't think Key thinks CGC is a clown.

 

[Vespidae]

As much fun as speculating on who we could have gotten, or stayed with the TO … the fact is, we have moved on. We are already pregnant. There is no point to talk otherwise.

As to where to go from here, I think most fans I know (not a valid statistical sample) would be pleased if … at the end of this year, CGC did two things. First, replace P'nut with a respected/exciting OC. Saban got Lane Kiffen and is a big fan of West Coast coordinators. Look at what a good OC has meant to LSU.

Second, stop with the nonsense. I'm fine with the hype to a degree, but all of the other stuff is just fuel to burn when things turn bad. Money Down? Get rid of it. ATL? Get rid of it. Dancing? Get rid of it.

Work with your fans. Win some games. Earn the right to freewheel it.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Bronco Mendenhall won 8 in year 3 at UVA after winning *2!* in year 1.
James Franklin won 9 in year 2 at Vandy after winning 6 in year 1 for a team that had won 4 total games in the previous 2 years.
Dan Mullen won 9 games at Miss St. for the first time in 11 seasons in year 2.
Pat Fitzgerald won 9 in year 3 at Northwestern (another one of those urban, academic heavy schools).
Chris Petersen won 12 in year 3 at Washington.

I’m not saying the expectation for CGC and Tech is to win 9+ games in year 3. But there should be a really good idea about whether or not the program is headed in the right direction by year 3. If recruiting stays in or near the top 25, and there’s visible progress on the field on gamedays, then progress is being made, and CGC is doing his job. But there’s no reason to assume this should be a 2-5 win team in year 3 of the transformation based solely on the fact that the transformation is happening in the first place.

Which of those teams transitioned from a CPJ style 3O offense?

 

[ibeattetris]

Which of those teams transitioned from a CPJ style 3O offense?

The only coach on that list I’d really compare with GT is Franklin at Vandy. He stepped into a situations where recruiting had been in the 60 upper 70 range and one winning season in the last 3 decades. Was able to immediately have three winning seasons in a row, which hadn’t happened for them since the 50’s. It wasn’t a transition from the 30, but it’s hard to argue it wasn’t one of the greatest program transformations. And I loathe Franklin so it’s hard for me to even type all that.

Comparing CGC to the other coaches is pretty unfair.

 

[JacketOff]

Which of those teams transitioned from a CPJ style 3O offense?

You guys are absolutely missing the point I’m trying to make. In no way am I saying the situations those coaches stepped into are the same as what GC is stepping into. What I’m trying to say is that 3-4 years has been a pretty consistent timeframe to turn around average to mediocre teams. Even the top tier teams (LSU and Clemson) took 3-4 years to turn back around. Rebuilding a football program is as much about culture changes as it is about the actual scheme changes. And when I say culture I don’t mean ATL, Money Down, or 404 culture. I mean the way practices are ran, whats happening in the S&C program, what’s expected out of players off the field. Minnesota and Fleck, Clemson and Dabo, LSU and Ogeron, Vandy and Franklin are all examples of how important culture is within a program. Do you think Coach O significantly changed what Les Miles did with regard to scheme? Or do you think he brought a new mindset to the team?

In reference to transitioning out of the 3O, most of the guys playing significant offensive snaps never even played for CPJ. It’s not like the defense was running the 3O too, and with Collins being a defensive guy, with a lot of talent in the secondary the defense should at least be above average relative to the P5 in 3 years. Going back to culture changes, by year 3, the young guys playing significant snaps will be the leaders on the team. Like it or not, when a coaching change happens the veterans are often reluctant to buy in to the new guy’s culture.

Skill players on offense are also fine, the only place where the 3O transition is detrimental right now is on the OLine. But you could attribute some of that to injuries. Playing 3 walk ons on the OLine is unheard of. The Dline is of course still weak, but a couple of big recruits next recruiting class could change that narrative also.

Once again, I don’t expect GC to win 9 games in year 3. Do I want him to? Absolutely. Do I think the team will have the talent available to do so anyway? I don’t know, maybe. But the whole point of what I’m trying to say is that by year 3, we should have a good idea of whether or not GC is the guy. That will be determined with how well recruiting holds up, and if on field performance is on the uptick.

 

[laoh]

Second, stop with the nonsense. I'm fine with the hype to a degree, but all of the other stuff is just fuel to burn when things turn bad. Money Down? Get rid of it. ATL? Get rid of it. Dancing? Get rid of it.

Get rid of ATL? Are you kidding? That's like the best non-football ploy that we have that we've for whatever boneheaded reason, failed to capitalize all these years. Do you realize how exciting ATL is to young black men? Black mecca. Check. Center of the civil rights movement. Check. AUC right down the street including an all-Black girls school, Spelman. Check. Center of universe for hip hop. Check. Freaknik (ok, I know this one is a stretch). Collins hyping up ATL with all the hashtags including #404TheCulture is pure genius. Want proof? Go to twitter/insta accounts of committed recruits and read the hashtags.

(and yes, I know the team is not all black players but let's get real for a sec).

 

[ibeattetris]

Get rid of ATL? Are you kidding? That's like the best non-football ploy that we have that we've for whatever boneheaded reason, failed to capitalize all these years. Do you realize how exciting ATL is to young black men? Black mecca. Check. Center of the civil rights movement. Check. AUC right down the street including an all-Black girls school, Spelman. Check. Center of universe for hip hop. Check. Freaknik (ok, I know this one is a stretch). Collins hyping up ATL with all the hashtags including #404TheCulture is pure genius. Want proof? Go to twitter/insta accounts of committed recruits and read the hashtags.

(and yes, I know the team is not all black players but let's get real for a sec).

I think he was referring to the concept of “above the line” not the coaches emphasis on the city. I am anti “above the line” specifically because it causes cognitive dissonance for me

 

[ezbee]

3 year turnarounds at both Minnesota and Baylor provide evidence to the contrary... Monken had a 3 year turnaround at Army. Dabo’s record at Clemson was average until year 4 after only winning 6 in year 3. Ed Ogeron won 10 games for the first time in year 3 at LSU.

I’m not sure why you think it’s impossible to change the trajectory of a program in 3 years.

I would also argue that both Ross and O’Leary was able to do this at Tech - three/four year turnarounds.

 

[ezbee]

Minnesota and Baylor weren't ditching the 3O and didn't have rosters packed with 3O personnel...
Monken was a 3O coach hired to replace a 3O coach and inherited players recruited to play in a 3) scheme...
Clemson's recruiting was excellent before Dabo ever got there, and he wasn't overhauling offensive scheme. The indictment on the former coach was he never utilized the talent he had...
Orgeron also inherited a team with a history of top 10 recruiting classes and has an unstoppable offense but also a defense that just surrendered 600+ yards to a mediocre Texas A&M team...

I am not sure you are making realistic comparisons...

from memory, wasn’t Baylor basically a year or two removed from losing half their starters due to the scandals? You know, the sexual assault and other slimy crap that caused them to can the Briles clan? If so that sounds like a huge mountain to climb.

 

[ezbee]

Minnesota is also not a comparison I would want to make. They’re having a fun season, and no one can take the wins away, but good lord have they been lucky. They have five wins by a combined 25 points (including an overtime win against South Dakota State). If the goal is to build something sustainable, that ain’t it.

Similar criticisms can be made of Baylor, which has five wins by a combined 22 points.

disagree 100%. A wins a win. Who cares if it’s 1 point or not. Still counts as a W.
Baylor and Minnesota are not top 5 teams but I’d give my left nut for their record and future right now.

 

[danny daniel]

If the current coaches get better on game day I agree with the 3 year crowd. When I was a sophomore in HS we got a new coach. The replaced coach was bad (and out of date), as was the team. First year we won one game with some pretty good talent. Second year we won 3 games with slightly less talent. Third year we won 7 games (including a big one where we were a really big underdog) and were competitive in two games we lost. That team had one outstanding RB and the rest of the players below average in size and ability, and we had no depth. But we played as a team, had discipline (few mistakes and penalties), and had learned the system. When I look back at that roster it is hard to understand how we played so well. The next three seasons the team was even better as the talent also got much better.

I really dread the wait but I must confess that it will likely take 3 years to get back to being competitive. If we stay with the current O system we may never get there with the QBs and Lineman we are destined (by history) to recruit.

 

[Vespidae]

Get rid of ATL? Are you kidding? That's like the best non-football ploy that we have that we've for whatever boneheaded reason, failed to capitalize all these years. Do you realize how exciting ATL is to young black men? Black mecca. Check. Center of the civil rights movement. Check. AUC right down the street including an all-Black girls school, Spelman. Check. Center of universe for hip hop. Check. Freaknik (ok, I know this one is a stretch). Collins hyping up ATL with all the hashtags including #404TheCulture is pure genius. Want proof? Go to twitter/insta accounts of committed recruits and read the hashtags.

(and yes, I know the team is not all black players but let's get real for a sec).

See how confused the fan base is? ATL refers to "Above the Line" as opposed to "starting line up". The #404Culture is the reference to the city. That … is actually a good thing and note, I didn't say to get rid of it.