Las Vegas Mass Casualty Attack

[Deleted member 2897]

Here is our local school district's safety measures. Note they don't discuss all the details, so that potential criminals can't take advantage of it. But you will note a defense in depth strategy to access - physical barriers, electronic barriers, screening, video cameras, etc. You will also note that there is at least 1 armed officer at every single middle school and high school. The elementary schools use a variety of armed security, including officers, local patrol officers, off duty officers, etc.

There are also processes in place for anonymous (if necessary) threat reporting, threat and personality analysis, and emergency plan tests.

Here is the document:
https://msg.schoolmessenger.com/m/?...a11466f29d8aced1ab4578011b6cab2b023ec7cd3059e

Let me know if you can't access it.

 

[LibertyTurns]

While a lot of this is true at the city level, there is also overwhelming evidence at the state level that a higher rate of gun ownership correlates to a higher gun homicide rate. There is a higher gun homicide rate in Alabama than in NY. There is a higher gun homicide rate in Louisiana than in California.

Ok so you’re advocating we use our resources towards preventing the 1 homicide that may occur in a random rural Alabama location (Pop 500) as opposed to trying to reduce the 650 annual murders in metro Chicago (Pop 10,000,000) that predominantly happens in a 5 or 10 mile radius if that?

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Honest question, are you ok with your taxes going up significantly if we are to implement the security measures that you mentioned above at all schools? That doesn't mean that I am against your ideas I just want to know what your reaction is going to be when the bill comes in. Also, one armed guard at all schools is going to do nothing. You will need several. Parkland had an armed guard who was working at the time. He never even encountered the shooter.

Cut spending elsewhere. Prioritize.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Ok so you’re advocating we use our resources towards preventing the 1 homicide that may occur in a random rural Alabama location (Pop 500) as opposed to trying to reduce the 650 annual murders in metro Chicago (Pop 10,000,000) that predominantly happens in a 5 or 10 mile radius if that?

To put numbers behind your reply, here is some data:
Per Capita Gun Murder Rate, Total Gun Murders:
Alabama, 17.8, 854
Illinois, 8.67, 1,109. Chicago (bans guns) has a gun murder rate of 15.5, which means of the 1,109 murders in the entire state, 420 were just from the city limits. Illinois is 58,000 square miles. Chicago is 234 square miles. So 38% of the shootings happen within 0.4% of the state.

Should we be trying to reduce gun violence? Absolutely. Should we be trying to keep our kids and communities safe? Absolutely. But we need to make rational evidence-based decisions on what we do, not make public policy based on our political views and spend inordinant amounts of time on laws that won't actually do anything. Much of Europe has a higher per capita mass shooting and school shooting rate than we do. So all this talk about banning and confiscating most of the guns (as helpful as that initially feels to say) hasn't done anything anywhere else. Plus we have the 2nd amendment that says we can't do that. So what we should work on are school safety, mental illness/violence/gun bans, getting law enforcement to do their frigging jobs, and restore family values. None of that is popular with the left though, because it doesn't jive with their political views.

 

[BuzzStone]

That's not what I and most people are advocating. We are talking about a single armed resource/police officer. Then the person is actually well trained and you don't have 20 people in a circular firing squad. Gun free zones have been disastrous soft targets over the last 15 years. All you have to do is put 1 single security guard in a reasonably sized school and the deterrence alone will help.

Rhetorical question - can you or anybody else on this board imagine shooting someone? 5 people? 20 people? It takes a certain kind of evil and delusion to do such a thing. You could surround me with handguns, AR-15s, grenades, flame throwers, napalm, MX missiles, and I wouldn't even remotely be tempted. The gun is just a tool - removing 1 tool means they will grab another. That much of Europe has a per capita higher mass shooting and school shooting rate than we do supports that. That cities like Chicago and DC that have bans have higher shooting rates supports that. We have to improve the security at schools, improve our ability to at least temporarily ban guns based on mental illness/interactions with police, and we have to stop the rotting at the core that develops kids like this in the first place - the destruction of the family and the destruction of our culture.

I agree every school should have a cop on duty anytime students are present. But I have heard a lot of arguments for staff and teachers to be trained and armed. I just don't know if that is a great idea. I see that as becoming confusing for law enforcement.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Ok then. What should we do to curtail this massive problem without any forms of gun control?

Harden security at schools. Put fences up. Limit access into the schools and truly screen non students. Put a cop in every school.

Outlawing firearms won’t make them disappear. Outlawing certain popular / unpopular models won’t change anything with regards to threats.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

I don't think anyone is advocating murder, I just don't think anyone on the guns side of the argument cares at all how many people die as long as it isn't their loved ones. Therefore they will never make any attempt to improve anything when it is obvious that we have a serious problem.

I care about all innocents. But none as much as my loved ones. And my kids go to government schools. While I want to keep them safe I also want to protect their civil rights. Anti gun folks don’t get that, are typically very ignorant about guns in general, and let their fear and emotions dictate their decision making while avoiding actually educating themselves about firearms.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

I agree every school should have a cop on duty anytime students are present. But I have heard a lot of arguments for staff and teachers to be trained and armed. I just don't know if that is a great idea. I see that as becoming confusing for law enforcement.

It is a possible avenue but does contain significant risks and liabilities. Extensive screening, training, and qualifications would be required. And it would have to be endorsed by the particular school commissioners and individual school principals.

And most teachers would not want to participate imo. So im not sold on it being an obvious answer on a wide scale. But might work to a degree on a limited basis in the right area / circumstance.

 

[BuzzStone]

Here is our local school district's safety measures. Note they don't discuss all the details, so that potential criminals can't take advantage of it. But you will note a defense in depth strategy to access - physical barriers, electronic barriers, screening, video cameras, etc. You will also note that there is at least 1 armed officer at every single middle school and high school. The elementary schools use a variety of armed security, including officers, local patrol officers, off duty officers, etc.

There are also processes in place for anonymous (if necessary) threat reporting, threat and personality analysis, and emergency plan tests.

Here is the document:
https://msg.schoolmessenger.com/m/?...a11466f29d8aced1ab4578011b6cab2b023ec7cd3059e

Let me know if you can't access it.

There is one great thing in there I haven't heard discussed much. The importance of knowing your child's digital activity. This is a key thing that should be put out in the open more often. Glad to see a school district is at least trying.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Your opinion is that nothing can stop these shootings and therefore we shouldn’t even try. I would say that is a very defeatist attitude but I’m not sure it is even genuine. Imagine if after 911 we all said, well nothing can be done, no response needed. No new laws needed.

What guns would you ban and how would such a “ban” prevent these incidents?

 

[Deleted member 2897]

There is one great thing in there I haven't heard discussed much. The importance of knowing your child's digital activity. This is a key thing that should be put out in the open more often. Glad to see a school district is at least trying.

It amazes me how little parents follow their kids electronic fingerprints around. I don't know if its ignorance, not wanting to put in the work to learn how to do it, or what. When talking to other parents, I usually try to drop a truth trial bomb somewhere to get their attention to see if they want to learn more. Most are shocked at stuff they didn't know and want to learn more. If I had to guess, I'd say 90%+ of parents don't follow up on their kids online, much less know any of the tricks kids are pulling or how they can evade them.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

I can tell you what has been done, but it’s nearly all bad. We’ve relaxed our laws, fearful of racial discrimination primarily. We’ve let violent criminals out of jail under the auspices of unfair levels of punishment for their crimes or disproportionate treatment of different demographics. At the same time, we’ve got prominent elected officials flaunting disobedience of our laws by ignoring federal immigration requirements & proclaiming the ability to establish sanctuary cities for law breakers including illegal alien violent crime committing felons.

There’s overwhelming statistical evidence that nearly 75% of our nation’s homicides occur in areas representing just 5% of our cities area. It’s not hard to identify where the homicides will occur (poor & typically minority neighborhoods) and it’s not hard to identify who’s likely to commit the homicide (previous violent offenders).

Who are the mayors in our largest cities & what is their agenda? Who are the governors of the states containing our largest cities & what is their agenda? What political persuasion is the Chief of Police, head of the School Boards, etc in these cities with such a terrible track record? What Senators & Congressman are enabling these bastards for damaging our cities & country by continuing to fund them? Who are the people supporting these people & why do they think law abiding citizens are evil people for wanting to preserve their consitituonally guaranteed freedoms at the expense of allowing criminals to roam around unfettered ? Why do they seemingly not hate killing & seemingly prefer to allow their cities to decline, children to get slaughtered, etc instead of standing up like a man & telling it like it is/exhibiting some real American leadership?

I think we all know the answers to these questions. Some prefer to remain in power instead of being on the side of right. Sad.

Some big cities have political issues that make crime worse. But big cities = high population density = more crime of all types in smaller geographic areas regardless of laws and enforcement.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

THATS WHAT COPS DO.

There is no such thing as conflicting reports. They know who they employ. They ask him where he was.

Fire him and get a real cop.

Its what cops do. But if you think operating in that kind of chaos is easy you are a bit misguided imo.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

If you arm teachers and staff and a shooting occurs how are the cops supposed to determine who the shooter is?

Looking for real answers here.

That’s where the significant amount of training and risks come into play. It’s true for off duty cops in plainclothes that respond in these situations also. Friendly fire is a big possibility.

 

[forensicbuzz]

To put numbers behind your reply, here is some data:
Per Capita Gun Murder Rate, Total Gun Murders:
Alabama, 17.8, 854
Illinois, 8.67, 1,109. Chicago (bans guns) has a gun murder rate of 15.5, which means of the 1,109 murders in the entire state, 420 were just from the city limits. Illinois is 58,000 square miles. Chicago is 234 square miles. So 38% of the shootings happen within 0.4% of the state.

Should we be trying to reduce gun violence? Absolutely. Should we be trying to keep our kids and communities safe? Absolutely. But we need to make rational evidence-based decisions on what we do, not make public policy based on our political views and spend inordinant amounts of time on laws that won't actually do anything. Much of Europe has a higher per capita mass shooting and school shooting rate than we do. So all this talk about banning and confiscating most of the guns (as helpful as that initially feels to say) hasn't done anything anywhere else. Plus we have the 2nd amendment that says we can't do that. So what we should work on are school safety, mental illness/violence/gun bans, getting law enforcement to do their frigging jobs, and restore family values. None of that is popular with the left though, because it doesn't jive with their political views.

Chicago no longer bans guns.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Its what cops do. But if you think operating in that kind of chaos is easy you are a bit misguided imo.

I didn't mean to imply it was easy. Something wasn't making sense that the cop 'never came across the shooter' and vague information about where he was. Turns out he wasn't on campus. I don't know where he was (a representative didn't know if it was his day off or if he had gotten called somewhere else), but he wasn't at the school. Makes a lot more sense now.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

I didn't mean to imply it was easy. Something wasn't making sense that the cop 'never came across the shooter' and vague information about where he was. Turns out he wasn't on campus. I don't know where he was (a representative didn't know if it was his day off or if he had gotten called somewhere else), but he wasn't at the school. Makes a lot more sense now.

Some school systems don’t have any cops. Some have one that will cover multiple schools. I don’t know about the one in Florida but a single cop can only be in a single location at any given point in time.

So if school security is the primary concern, every school in America needs its own cop on campus. No school system in America does this to my knowledge. The best I’m aware of have two in every high school, one in every middle school, and all will cover the elementary schools in their “cluster” of schools.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Some school systems don’t have any cops. Some have one that will cover multiple schools. I don’t know about the one in Florida but a single cop can only be in a single location at any given point in time.

So if school security is the primary concern, every school in America needs its own cop on campus. No school system in America does this to my knowledge. The best I’m aware of have two in every high school, one in every middle school, and all will cover the elementary schools in their “cluster” of schools.

You should read my school district's security plan - link posted above. Every single middle and high school in the county has at least 1 assigned armed officer. Every elementary school uses a mix of on and off duty officers and rotating officers - elementary schools don't need them so much, because they don't already have the discipline issues and if any kid walks up like 12 years old or older they will stand out like a sore thumb around a bunch of 1st graders. But elementary schools have the most strict access control measures of them all. Only badge access through electronic door entry. etc. Oh, and my property taxes are $275 for every $100,000 of home value. Massively cheaper than anywhere else I've lived.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

You should read my school district's security plan - link posted above. Every single middle and high school in the county has at least 1 assigned armed officer. Every elementary school uses a mix of on and off duty officers and rotating officers - elementary schools don't need them so much, because they don't already have the discipline issues and if any kid walks up like 12 years old or older they will stand out like a sore thumb around a bunch of 1st graders. But elementary schools have the most strict access control measures of them all. Only badge access through electronic door entry. etc. Oh, and my property taxes are $275 for every $100,000 of home value. Massively cheaper than anywhere else I've lived.

The elementary schools in your district don’t have full time armed security. The school access measures are much like game day security at BDS. Present to make people feel safe...not be safe.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

The elementary schools in your district don’t have full time armed security. The school access measures are much like game day security at BDS. Present to make people feel safe...not be safe.

Not from what I've seen. I literally can't enter the school. I have to go into a side office and they have to buzz me to let me through another door onto school property. In the meantime, they make a copy of my drivers license and run a background check against stuff like sex registry. I mean, if someone wants to shoot up a school, they will shoot up a school. But absent being like Israel with a military person with automatic weapons and bullet proof outfits, I feel like they're doing the best they can without bankrupting everyone. The only thing they are missing everywhere is metal detectors. I'm not sure they will ever go that route because at the larger schools the traffic is very high to get in and they'd probably need a ton of them.