Las Vegas Mass Casualty Attack

awbuzz

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My apologies. Assault "style" weapon would have been more accurate as a classification for the AR-15. Can I assume that you are ok with a semi automatic assault weapon being sold to a 19 year old who has been reported to the police dozens of times?

If he had not been convicted or had the court rule him as "crazy", there isn't anything that can legally stop him from purchasing weapons.

Now do I think he should have been flagged in the system somehow, Sure!
But HOW? Without trampling on privacy rights?
Remember that if the law is too strict and all is it takes is someone complaining about someone, then we are all subject to arrest.

Hopefully you don't think that anyone on this site is advocating murder.

Want to help shut down some of this? Then have the media prevented from showing perps face and name all over the place. Many of these "mass killers" are wanting to become (im)famous and this is how they go about it. They are going to "BE SOMEBODY!" Stop that and some of that would go away.
 

Deleted member 2897

Guest
So were right back to the irrational conspiracy theory of everyone wanting to take away your guns.

Its irrational on the part of those who (perhaps unknowingly) want to do it. My extended (if that's the right word) family is not a bunch of leftists. I would consider them pretty well-informed and intelligent. But they are all over social media about needing to ban all 'military assault guns'. What does that mean - that means banning and confiscating 80% of guns in this country. So yea, its irrational because its not going to happen, and they don't really understand what's going on, but they're saying it. Its not a conspiracy. If we did what they wanted, they would confiscate 80% of the guns - all guns that many people own.
 

4shotB

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5,141
I would consider them pretty well-informed and intelligent. But they are all over social media about needing to ban all 'military assault guns'.

A bit off topic, but one of the down sides of the internet and social media is that it allows people who we used to assume were well-informed and intelligent prove publicly that they actually are not.
 

BuzzStone

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Landrum SC
Do you follow the gun laws in Massachusetts, California, etc? If not you should.

I love continuing to worry about something that won't happen instead of discussing how to fix the problem. I do know that your allowed to have guns in both states. I do know that those states gun laws have nothing to do with how we address the problem of school shootings.
 

Whiskey_Clear

Banned
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10,486
I love continuing to worry about something that won't happen instead of discussing how to fix the problem. I do know that your allowed to have guns in both states. I do know that those states gun laws have nothing to do with how we address the problem of school shootings.

But the solution from the left is gun bans and confiscation. So it’s not a conspiracy theory whether you think they will ultimately be successful or not.

Governments in D.C., MA, CA, and others have banned guns and desire to do more. And they are using the current tragedy to push their agenda.
 

BuzzStone

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But the solution from the left is gun bans and confiscation. So it’s not a conspiracy theory whether you think they will ultimately be successful or not.

Governments in D.C., MA, CA, and others have banned guns and desire to do more.

So how is this input from you helping solve the problem in any way? Your not bringing anything to the discussion on how to correct the problem.
 

Deleted member 2897

Guest
I made a list earlier. Here is a re-hash, with a little extra added:
#1 thing that would reduce gun murders (BY FAR): Law Enforcement and the FBI starts doing their job. The vast majority of gun murders are inner city by felons who shouldn't have guns. Nobody ever goes to confiscate weapons when people are convicted of felonies.

#2 our gun murder rate is at an all time record low going back to the 1800s, when their data collection was probably not even good in the first place. So gun murders are nothing new and have dropped substantially in the United States. But the TYPE of targets have changed to softer targets like schools (colleges, elementary schools, movie theaters) and other "gun free zones" where the criminals know they probably won't find any resistance. Hire an armed resource/police officer for every school. NOT TEACHERS. NOT STUDENTS. Put metal detectors at every entry point. Create a safe perimeter around all schools (ie security with badge scans, etc.) for entry.

#3 partly overlaps with #1, but get more aggressive above inputting police and mental health contacts into the background check database. This is probably where legislation is needed and it will start lawsuits for infringing on the 2nd and 4th and 1st amendments, but I think you can make a public welfare and safety argument that even if you can't successfully prosecute someone for making terroristic threats (or similar) that results in a felony and loss of guns, high levels of violent behavior and mental health issues should get someone a 5 year time-out or something like that. Guns confiscated for 5 years, 5 year probation.

None of these actually address the underlying problem, which is why do people kill in the first place. That brings me to #4, which will do infinitely more to prevent these before they even get started. And that is the destruction of our moral and traditional values and the disintegration of the family. The statistics of those raised without a father (for example) is many many many many times larger to be involved in violence, crime, and all sorts of other dysfunctional behavior. We have a culture of moral relativism now. There is no clear right and wrong, its only right or wrong individual to individual in what they think and believe. And that's a dangerous recipe. In another post I listed that kids raised in single family homes are 10-20 times more likely to get arrested, end up in prison, commit violence against another person, have a mental illness, and so on.

In terms of actual gun control, I can't think of anything that will help that is actually possible. You can't make guns disappear. You're not going to be able to confiscate them. So all this talk of banning semi-automatic guns is nonsense. Its what everyone owns, ain't going to happen. Just on the newswire is that Trump is moving to ban bump stocks. More non-sense. I mean, I don't own guns, so none of this will affect me directly, but we have 1 single event out of the 100,000 gun murders in the last decade that came from bump stocks. And as HILLARY CLINTON HERSELF SAID, bump stocks prevented the Las Vegas attack from being more deadly. Bump stocks make aiming all but impossible. They also heat up the gun barrel much more quickly leading to much more rapid failure of the gun. If the attacker there had used a silencer or even just a regular gun and could have aimed, he would have been able to kill more than 58. Think about it - he had 60 minutes to shoot, and unloaded over 1,000 rounds INTO A CROWD OF PEOPLE unable to leave due to high fence and only a couple exit points. And he killed 58. Pitiful. So in the last few years our only moves on gun control serve to make deaths more likely. LOL.
 

BuzzStone

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I have proposed a number of things, I think we need to look at background checks when making a firearm purchase. I think we need to look at better security at the schools. I think we need Metal detectors at all schools. And most importantly I think we need much improved mental health.

But the thing we need to do first is to have a honest discussion and run some analytics and figure out what are the main factors and deal with those first.
 

Whiskey_Clear

Banned
Messages
10,486
I have proposed a number of things, I think we need to look at background checks when making a firearm purchase. I think we need to look at better security at the schools. I think we need Metal detectors at all schools. And most importantly I think we need much improved mental health.

But the thing we need to do first is to have a honest discussion and run some analytics and figure out what are the main factors and deal with those first.

Background checks have been used by anti 2a lawmakers to prevent firearm purchases. I’m in favor or reasonable changes though.

Better security at schools concur. Cop in every school would be costly and cops at elementary schools will have little to do daily.

Metal detectors are a no go for most systems as it will significantly increases the time needed to get kids inside.

Mental health improvements. Concur.

Analytics. Slippery slope. See AGW. It’s hard to measure crazy and evil with numbers.
 

Deleted member 2897

Guest
Better security at schools concur. Cop in every school would be costly and cops at elementary schools will have little to do daily.

Metal detectors are a no go for most systems as it will significantly increases the time needed to get kids inside.

I think you could deputize a principal or assistant principal.

I think you can calibrate metal detectors so that they don’t alarm on belts and shoes.

Both of these let people put their money where there mouth is too, I think 80% of this is political based on what I read on social media and see in the news, but stuff like this will help flush it out. Do you want true improved security, or hypotheticals based on political beliefs...
 

Whiskey_Clear

Banned
Messages
10,486
I think you could deputize a principal or assistant principal.

I think you can calibrate metal detectors so that they don’t alarm on belts and shoes.

Both of these let people put their money where there mouth is too, I think 80% of this is political based on what I read on social media and see in the news, but stuff like this will help flush it out. Do you want true improved security, or hypotheticals based on political beliefs...

Metal detectors aren’t that easy. Calibrate for weapons and keys will set them off. Then you have band members. Have to search each instrument case. Can put a lot of guns in a trombone, trumpet, or sousaphone case.

It can be done but will take a lot of time or a lot more staff...that may not have much else to do after kids get in.

Then you have to ban access back out to the cars of kids who drive...or make them all come in on busses...which by the way are vulnerable unless you put metal detectors on them and screen every bus rider.

There aren’t many easy answers. If there were they’d have been figured out and implemented already.
 

Deleted member 2897

Guest
When even medical doctors are spreading fake news, you know we’ve reached the bottom of the cesspool. The question is, do they know they are lying, or are they just this ignorant? Neither is good.

https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-room/Pages/Floridashooting.aspx

#1, the popular 18 number includes all kinds of non-school shootings to inflate the number. And here they go repeating the ignorant comment about banning “assault weapons” which is a nonsensical term. Never use politically loaded incorrect terms to try and make an evidence-based argument.
 

WreckinGT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,198
I made a list earlier. Here is a re-hash, with a little extra added:
#1 thing that would reduce gun murders (BY FAR): Law Enforcement and the FBI starts doing their job. The vast majority of gun murders are inner city by felons who shouldn't have guns. Nobody ever goes to confiscate weapons when people are convicted of felonies.

#2 our gun murder rate is at an all time record low going back to the 1800s, when their data collection was probably not even good in the first place. So gun murders are nothing new and have dropped substantially in the United States. But the TYPE of targets have changed to softer targets like schools (colleges, elementary schools, movie theaters) and other "gun free zones" where the criminals know they probably won't find any resistance. Hire an armed resource/police officer for every school. NOT TEACHERS. NOT STUDENTS. Put metal detectors at every entry point. Create a safe perimeter around all schools (ie security with badge scans, etc.) for entry.

#3 partly overlaps with #1, but get more aggressive above inputting police and mental health contacts into the background check database. This is probably where legislation is needed and it will start lawsuits for infringing on the 2nd and 4th and 1st amendments, but I think you can make a public welfare and safety argument that even if you can't successfully prosecute someone for making terroristic threats (or similar) that results in a felony and loss of guns, high levels of violent behavior and mental health issues should get someone a 5 year time-out or something like that. Guns confiscated for 5 years, 5 year probation.

None of these actually address the underlying problem, which is why do people kill in the first place. That brings me to #4, which will do infinitely more to prevent these before they even get started. And that is the destruction of our moral and traditional values and the disintegration of the family. The statistics of those raised without a father (for example) is many many many many times larger to be involved in violence, crime, and all sorts of other dysfunctional behavior. We have a culture of moral relativism now. There is no clear right and wrong, its only right or wrong individual to individual in what they think and believe. And that's a dangerous recipe. In another post I listed that kids raised in single family homes are 10-20 times more likely to get arrested, end up in prison, commit violence against another person, have a mental illness, and so on.

In terms of actual gun control, I can't think of anything that will help that is actually possible. You can't make guns disappear. You're not going to be able to confiscate them. So all this talk of banning semi-automatic guns is nonsense. Its what everyone owns, ain't going to happen. Just on the newswire is that Trump is moving to ban bump stocks. More non-sense. I mean, I don't own guns, so none of this will affect me directly, but we have 1 single event out of the 100,000 gun murders in the last decade that came from bump stocks. And as HILLARY CLINTON HERSELF SAID, bump stocks prevented the Las Vegas attack from being more deadly. Bump stocks make aiming all but impossible. They also heat up the gun barrel much more quickly leading to much more rapid failure of the gun. If the attacker there had used a silencer or even just a regular gun and could have aimed, he would have been able to kill more than 58. Think about it - he had 60 minutes to shoot, and unloaded over 1,000 rounds INTO A CROWD OF PEOPLE unable to leave due to high fence and only a couple exit points. And he killed 58. Pitiful. So in the last few years our only moves on gun control serve to make deaths more likely. LOL.
Honest question, are you ok with your taxes going up significantly if we are to implement the security measures that you mentioned above at all schools? That doesn't mean that I am against your ideas I just want to know what your reaction is going to be when the bill comes in. Also, one armed guard at all schools is going to do nothing. You will need several. Parkland had an armed guard who was working at the time. He never even encountered the shooter.
 

WreckinGT

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,198
If he had not been convicted or had the court rule him as "crazy", there isn't anything that can legally stop him from purchasing weapons.

Now do I think he should have been flagged in the system somehow, Sure!
But HOW? Without trampling on privacy rights?
Remember that if the law is too strict and all is it takes is someone complaining about someone, then we are all subject to arrest.

Hopefully you don't think that anyone on this site is advocating murder.

Want to help shut down some of this? Then have the media prevented from showing perps face and name all over the place. Many of these "mass killers" are wanting to become (im)famous and this is how they go about it. They are going to "BE SOMEBODY!" Stop that and some of that would go away.
I don't think anyone is advocating murder, I just don't think anyone on the guns side of the argument cares at all how many people die as long as it isn't their loved ones. Therefore they will never make any attempt to improve anything when it is obvious that we have a serious problem.
 
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