Here's a COVID thread for you

[WreckinGT]

I decided to get vaccinated and have. I have seen many posts here and in other places stating that the vaccines have been FDA approved. That is false. There is not one single COVID-19 vaccine that has received FDA approval. They have been approved for use under an Emergency Use Authorization. The FDA was only allowed to do that because the pandemic has been declared a public health emergency. These vaccines HAVE NOT gone through all of the same trials and review that all medicines are required to go through. There is information about previous vaccine trials and how/when in the process serious issues have been found that are encouraging. However, there is no definitive declaration that the vaccines are in fact 100% safe.

I am deeply discouraged by people who either say that you are an idiot if you take the vaccine, or that you are an idiot if you don't get the vaccine. I don't think someone has to be frightened to get it and I don't think someone has to be frightened to not get it. It is simply an individual choice between whether you would rather accept an unknown risk of COVID, or an unknown risk of a somewhat tested vaccine.

Im not calling a single person an idiot, im saying that a policy of people under 55 being better off waiting for analysis of long term effects is idiotic. Like you said, the technology used in these vaccines aren't new. They have been used for other purposes and have been evaluated. The FDA wouldn't approve emergency use if they were a great risk to public health like some here seem to be convinced of. Lets say we all exercise our great individual choice and decide to not get the vaccine. Thousands more will die needlessly. Sports will continue to be played in nearly empty stadiums. Schools will remain virtual. The economy wont recover. Etc. In other words, we won't get back to normal. The nightmare will continue. Those who complain about wearing masks will continue wearing masks because they refused to contribute to the effort of getting the country vaccinated. Luckily, most people aren't taking this naive approach so we should be fine. Here's hoping the anti vax crowd doesn't curtail or delay the effort too much.

 

[ramblinwreckguru]

Im not calling a single person an idiot, im saying that a policy of people under 55 being better off waiting for analysis of long term effects is idiotic. Like you said, the technology used in these vaccines aren't new. They have been used for other purposes and have been evaluated. The FDA wouldn't approve emergency use if they were a great risk to public health like some here seem to be convinced of. Lets say we all exercise our great individual choice and decide to not get the vaccine. Thousands more will die needlessly. Sports will continue to be played in nearly empty stadiums. Schools will remain virtual. The economy wont recover. Etc. In other words, we won't get back to normal. The nightmare will continue. Those who complain about wearing masks will continue wearing masks because they refused to contribute to the effort of getting the country vaccinated. Luckily, most people aren't taking this naive approach so we should be fine. Here's hoping the anti vax crowd doesn't curtail or delay the effort too much.

Once everyone who wants the vaccine gets the vaccine, they should be protected from the virus, and everyone left will be those who choose not to get the vaccine right now. If some of those who choose not to get the vaccine yet get sick or die from Covid, that's just on those individuals.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

There was no mention of the United States in what I said or the reply. The reasons for vaccine usage or the risk of long term effects aren't unique country to country. Its perfectly valid to discuss it in terms of current world events. If you want to talk specifically about just the US then yes, telling all people below 55 to avoid the vaccine until long term tests are concluded is still pretty idiotic.

#1, nobody is telling anybody of any age to avoid the vaccine.
#2, the health risks can in fact be different in one country versus another. You just said so yourself above in terms of the age of impact over there and their healthcare systems ability to manage it.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Im not calling a single person an idiot, im saying that a policy of people under 55 being better off waiting for analysis of long term effects is idiotic. Like you said, the technology used in these vaccines aren't new. They have been used for other purposes and have been evaluated. The FDA wouldn't approve emergency use if they were a great risk to public health like some here seem to be convinced of. Lets say we all exercise our great individual choice and decide to not get the vaccine. Thousands more will die needlessly. Sports will continue to be played in nearly empty stadiums. Schools will remain virtual. The economy wont recover. Etc. In other words, we won't get back to normal. The nightmare will continue. Those who complain about wearing masks will continue wearing masks because they refused to contribute to the effort of getting the country vaccinated. Luckily, most people aren't taking this naive approach so we should be fine. Here's hoping the anti vax crowd doesn't curtail or delay the effort too much.

And herein lies the problem. If you get the vaccine but you're still not allowed to go watch sporting events, travel, even be outside by yourself without wearing a mask, go to school, etc. Then what's really the point? You can't (not you personally) pipe into people's heads for a year to not trust the vaccine, its being politicized, don't wear a mask they do nothing or wait wear a mask even when by yourself, and then if you get vaccinated it won't change how you have to live...we can't wonder why some people are reticent about getting it. Especially in the crowd where as I've shown above the health risks are less than for the regular flu.

My 18 year old daughter was vaccinated in December. So was my wife. My 2nd shot is tomorrow. My 15 year old son will get it when its approved. Then our family will all be done (all 4 of our parents were vaccinated). I hope everyone able will get it. But I can certainly understand why certain people wouldn't want to.

 

[JacketRacket]

 

[RonJohn]

Im not calling a single person an idiot, im saying that a policy of people under 55 being better off waiting for analysis of long term effects is idiotic. Like you said, the technology used in these vaccines aren't new. They have been used for other purposes and have been evaluated. The FDA wouldn't approve emergency use if they were a great risk to public health like some here seem to be convinced of. Lets say we all exercise our great individual choice and decide to not get the vaccine. Thousands more will die needlessly. Sports will continue to be played in nearly empty stadiums. Schools will remain virtual. The economy wont recover. Etc. In other words, we won't get back to normal. The nightmare will continue. Those who complain about wearing masks will continue wearing masks because they refused to contribute to the effort of getting the country vaccinated. Luckily, most people aren't taking this naive approach so we should be fine. Here's hoping the anti vax crowd doesn't curtail or delay the effort too much.

Or, the people who are at risk will be vaccinated and the rest will suffer similar to the flu.

Please note that I am not saying that COVID-19 has been no worse than the flu. I am simply stating that if high risk people are vaccinated, then it is possible that the disease will be more like the flu to those who are not yet vaccinated.

There was a NYT article several weeks ago that basically said that people on the right vastly understate the impact of COVID-19 and that people on the left vastly overstate the impact of COVID-19. There is absolutely no reason to believe that people are sheep if they get vaccinated. There is absolutely no reason to believe that people are sheep if they do get vaccinated. Some people postulate that COVID-19 is going to just disappear. Some people postulate that COVID-19 is going to be a big issue forever. I think there is a much better chance that SARS-COV2 will stick around just like H1N1 has stuck around since 1920. Not as a constant pandemical emergency, but as a seasonal annoyance. I don't believe that there has been zero health impact from COVID, but I also do not believe that the world is ending. Perhaps I should become more radicalized so I could fit into what seems to be the currently accepted methods of communication.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

I will add (if this is true), 35-40 million doses that will never be used. With the health risks of that vaccine, the way Astra Zeneca was caught manipulating their trial data, its a waste of time for us to have the doses. Give them to someone...anyone. Why not India, a staunch ally of ours.

 

[forensicbuzz]

I decided to get vaccinated and have. I have seen many posts here and in other places stating that the vaccines have been FDA approved. That is false. There is not one single COVID-19 vaccine that has received FDA approval. They have been approved for use under an Emergency Use Authorization. The FDA was only allowed to do that because the pandemic has been declared a public health emergency. These vaccines HAVE NOT gone through all of the same trials and review that all medicines are required to go through. There is information about previous vaccine trials and how/when in the process serious issues have been found that are encouraging. However, there is no definitive declaration that the vaccines are in fact 100% safe.

I am deeply discouraged by people who either say that you are an idiot if you take the vaccine, or that you are an idiot if you don't get the vaccine. I don't think someone has to be frightened to get it and I don't think someone has to be frightened to not get it. It is simply an individual choice between whether you would rather accept an unknown risk of COVID, or an unknown risk of a somewhat tested vaccine.

Well, that's really still "FDA Approved" isn't it?

 

[forensicbuzz]

#1, nobody is telling anybody of any age to avoid the vaccine.
#2, the health risks can in fact be different in one country versus another. You just said so yourself above in terms of the age of impact over there and their healthcare systems ability to manage it.

I hear it happening every day.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Well, that's really still "FDA Approved" isn't it?

Its not. They short circuited the normal required length of clinical trials and amount of data to support the safety and efficacy numbers. They also ended the control group (a super big no-no in studies). The good news is we have a mountain of data at this point, and so far we aren't seeing any obvious issues of even a small significance. So that bodes well for FDA approval, which IIRC should be early next year.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

I hear it happening every day.

It was a passive aggressive response aimed at me and us on this board. Out in the wild, yes there are anti-vax people.

 

[MWBATL]

Well, that's really still "FDA Approved" isn't it?

I beli they are “conditionally approved”

 

[forensicbuzz]

Its not. They short circuited the normal required length of clinical trials and amount of data to support the safety and efficacy numbers. They also ended the control group (a super big no-no in studies). The good news is we have a mountain of data at this point, and so far we aren't seeing any obvious issues of even a small significance. So that bodes well for FDA approval, which IIRC should be early next year.

I know what they did. But, the FDA did "approve" it. Ending the control group in this instance isn't really that important. The big question is "how long will it last?"

 

[forensicbuzz]

I beli they are “conditionally approved”

Sorry guys, playing games with the words. It's been a long week and I needed a distraction from the report I'm avoiding.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

I know what they did. But, the FDA did "approve" it. Ending the control group in this instance isn't really that important. The big question is "how long will it last?"

I could not possibly more violently disagree.

Now, in a global pandemic with the death rates we had, and where you have the efficacy that these vaccines have, I certainly can understand cutting corners and approving it under emergency authorization and for ending the control group. And hopefully everything in the long run will work out fine. But if there are any severe complications, we'll never be able to prove if they are related to the vaccine or not. That's the downside of these decisions. The downside of keeping the control group is that you have these thousands of heroes who signed up to help being told they're not allowed to get the vaccine for like 5 more years and putting them all in an extremely unenviable and risky position. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

[ncjacket79]

And herein lies the problem. If you get the vaccine but you're still not allowed to go watch sporting events, travel, even be outside by yourself without wearing a mask, go to school, etc. Then what's really the point? You can't (not you personally) pipe into people's heads for a year to not trust the vaccine, its being politicized, don't wear a mask they do nothing or wait wear a mask even when by yourself, and then if you get vaccinated it won't change how you have to live...we can't wonder why some people are reticent about getting it. Especially in the crowd where as I've shown above the health risks are less than for the regular flu.

My 18 year old daughter was vaccinated in December. So was my wife. My 2nd shot is tomorrow. My 15 year old son will get it when its approved. Then our family will all be done (all 4 of our parents were vaccinated). I hope everyone able will get it. But I can certainly understand why certain people wouldn't want to.

You will be done until it’s time for the boosters we will probably need annually. I agree that the CDC is being too cautious but part of the issue is we simply don’t know yet how long the vaccine will protect you. People I trust and who know more than me think it’s probably about a year but there is no guarantee and there is no alarm that goes off. Personally I still wear one inside and if I’m in a group of people I don’t know. I wear one to the gym and grocery store. If we ever do reach herd immunity I think the guidance will change but I don’t think we will ever get there with the number of people who don’t want it for whatever reason.

 

[GT_EE78]

I know what they did. But, the FDA did "approve" it. Ending the control group in this instance isn't really that important. The big question is "how long will it last?"

If they ended the control groups that could mean that these vaccine might never get approved.
I've read that control groups were falling apart but not formally discontinued... source?

 

[forensicbuzz]

I could not possibly more violently disagree.

Now, in a global pandemic with the death rates we had, and where you have the efficacy that these vaccines have, I certainly can understand cutting corners and approving it under emergency authorization and for ending the control group. And hopefully everything in the long run will work out fine. But if there are any severe complications, we'll never be able to prove if they are related to the vaccine or not. That's the downside of these decisions. The downside of keeping the control group is that you have these thousands of heroes who signed up to help being told they're not allowed to get the vaccine for like 5 more years and putting them all in an extremely unenviable and risky position. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I understand this. However, I believe it's unethical to withhold the vaccination from the control group just to verify that severe complications were or weren't caused by the vaccine. I think there are enough people being vaccinated that if this were the case, it won't be equivocal.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

You will be done until it’s time for the boosters we will probably need annually. I agree that the CDC is being too cautious but part of the issue is we simply don’t know yet how long the vaccine will protect you. People I trust and who know more than me think it’s probably about a year but there is no guarantee and there is no alarm that goes off. Personally I still wear one inside and if I’m in a group of people I don’t know. I wear one to the gym and grocery store. If we ever do reach herd immunity I think the guidance will change but I don’t think we will ever get there with the number of people who don’t want it for whatever reason.

1/3rd of the population isn’t even under emergency approval. There is no way we will get past 50%-60% vaccination rate. But I think with the numbers of people who have had the disease as well, that will actually get us to herd immunity, despite what the CDC says.

 

[wrmathis]

I am in the Army. I got my vaccine yesterday. not cuz i wanted to or because the Army made me. I am suppose to go on a mission to Indonesia this summer and to enter that country its required so i got my first shot. we were briefed at the shot site that the FDA is about to approve the Pfizer vax around the first of May, while the Moderna will be about 2 weeks behind.

Right now, the Army can not force anyone to get the vax because its not FDA approved beyond Emergency Use. but you can bet your *** it will be mandatory once both are approved. I just turned 40 and i wouldn't have gotten it right now until the army forces it upon us but i want to go on this Indonesia trip so i went to get it.