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thwgjacket

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Friedgen was OC 1997-2000

KELLY CAMBELL:
http://www.ramblinwreck.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/campbell_kelly00.html

DEZ WHITE:
http://www.ramblinwreck.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/white_dez00.html

That's two ALL-ACC Wrs there.

KERRY WATKINS:
http://www.ramblinwreck.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/watkins_kerry00.html

As the 3rd WR in Friedgen's 2000 offense, he had similar stats to Stephen Hill's last year here...and Hill was the #1 WR in our offense.
You're making an unfair argument here. We threw the ball more then so of course receivers are going to have better numbers. It would be like comparing running back numbers under CPJ to other coaches. It's one-sided and serves no real purpose in assessing the coach.
 

GTRX7

Helluva Engineer
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That's fine but the better defenses don't play us man to man in the backfield.
http://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-football/2014/05/35605/film-study-defending-navy-flexbone

This seems to get us back to the argument that this offense struggles against the best defenses in the country...which gets us back to the response that every offense struggles against the best defenses in the country (which is why they are the best defenses). Show me an offensive scheme that consistently does better against the best defenses in the country with the same talent gap we have and I will agree with you that we should switch to that offense. I promise you with all my heart that if we ran Alabama's offensive scheme with any of the teams we have had in the last 20 years, we never once would have sniffed the national championship like they have in nearly each of the last five years.

For me, the argument that we struggle against the best defenses comes down to one thing, and one thing only...talent. The question is, does our scheme give us at least more of an advantage vs. other teams than it hurts us in recruiting talent. I believe it does, others may disagree. But how anyone can disagree with the fundamental principle that the offensive scheme itself can work to beat the big boys (just as Tech has used it to beat UGA, FSU, USC, VT, Clemson, Miami, etc. with less talent), I will never understand. At GSU, CPJ ran his scheme with comparable or above average talent, and went 62-10 and went to the national championship game three times in five years (winning two).
 

redmule

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
663
You can't pull out just one piece. The reason the safeties were able to stay back and have double coverage was because VL wasn't as good at running the option, so they didn't have to run support. Better option execution leads to not having an all out pass rush by the other team also. Pick your poison. If you spend all your time learning to pass block, you forget how to run block. If your offense is all passing, you can't control the clock late when you need to. If you run all the time, you can't come from behind late. Two types of teams are successful against you, the ones that are better than you physically and the ones that execute better than you. I think CPJ has a double edge strategy. He has done very well against the teams we are better than physically (I know, I know, Kansas and MTSU - I didn't say he was perfect). In 2008 & 2009, when we were physically better than the opposition, look what happened. But CPJ had to know that recruiting and maintaining that physical superiority was not in the cards. We couldn't do it after a MNC with Ray Goof at uga. Where CPJ has come up short is beating teams that we are physically inferior to but could beat thru better execution. His record against them (uga, VT, etc) is in line with previous head coaches, but for us to get better, this is where we have to do it. I know, DUH! The question is how to improve the execution other than by just recruiting better players.

Given the huge unknowns in latent ability and temperament in hormone addled 18 year olds, one strategy might be to quickly shed those players that you see will not be successful in your scheme regardless of how well they performed in high school. Just like in running a business, you are doing people no favor by keeping them in a job they cannot do. It ruins them and the organization. You move them to another position, or you help them find another employer where they can be successful, but you move them on. And you bring in new guys with different talents, and see how they perform. I give CPJ credit. I don't think I've ever despaired so much over Tech football as I did watching all the talent around Reggie Ball and Patrick Nix go to waste, and for four years Chan Gailey would not make the change. He did us nor Reggie any favors. CPJ does not do that. He is constantly moving players and coaches to different positions and different colleges. Maybe it's just clueless churning that keeps the players constantly confused, maybe it's the only thing keeping us above .500 in the ACC and in a bowl every year. There really are only two possible long term outcomes, the house of cards falls apart completely and we have to start over or the pieces come together and we begin a tremendous run of success.

We seem to be on the inflection point right now. So what else is new with Georgia Tech football. On the afternoon of October 7, 1989, I dragged myself into a half empty BDS for a game against Maryland. We had sucked against South Carolina the Saturday Night before. If I had met Bobby Ross on the street after that game as badly as we had played, I think I might have punched him. We were 0-3 on the year and riding a 16 game ACC losing streak. Lee Williamson, the big tall strong armed qb that Ross had recruited, was benched in favor of a redshirt freshman to start the season. We had had only one win of note (and 5 in total against mostly nobodies) in the previous 2+ years. Oddly enough that win was a shutout of #8 South Carolina with a Heisman hopeful qb the previous year. The only thing we had to look forward to was getting the season over and firing the head coach that we had stupidly hired after he was fired in a general house cleaning at Maryland. What did I know. If you don't like an up and down ride, get off the Tech merry-go-round.
 

70Jacket

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
79
Time spent not doing much from a stats perspective. Listen I'm not saying that Gailey didn't coach him up, I'm sure he did, but it's really hard to argue against the fact that something clicked for DT and his production soared. The click happened with CPJ as the coach and as such I think CPJ should get more credit.

DT was the primary receiver for (im guessing on this one) 90+ percent of all pass attempts; a combination of safeties cheating and DT's ability to beat man coverage resulted in huge success- having Dwyer in the backfield caused defenses to pick their poison, stopping the run or doubling DT, neither worked out well for most defenses.
 

vamosjackets

GT Athlete
Featured Member
Messages
2,126
Friedgen was OC 1997-2000

KELLY CAMBELL:
http://www.ramblinwreck.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/campbell_kelly00.html

DEZ WHITE:
http://www.ramblinwreck.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/white_dez00.html

That's two ALL-ACC Wrs there.

KERRY WATKINS:
http://www.ramblinwreck.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/watkins_kerry00.html

As the 3rd WR in Friedgen's 2000 offense, he had similar stats to Stephen Hill's last year here...and Hill was the #1 WR in our offense.
Why are you making me do this???

Here's the best WR for each of Fridge's years as OC:
97: Harvey Middleton (a lot of folks forget about ol' Harvey): 839 yds, 7 TD's, 16.1 ypc
98: Dez White: 973 yds, 9 TD, 21.2 ypc
99: Campbell: 1105 yds, 10 TD, 16 ypc
00: Campbell: 994 yds, 15.5 ypc

CPJ:
09: Thomas: 1154 yds, 8 TD, 25.1 ypc
11: 820 yds, 5 TD, 29.3 ypc

Hopefully you see that you can't state that those Fridge guys were more productive than Thomas and Hill. Obviously Thomas and Hill had significantly higher ypc than the others. And, with the decreased attempts, that's a major stat. Hill's '11 season produced the highest ypc in GT history. Extrapolate his numbers to more attempts and he (and Thomas both) obliterate the yardage totals of the other guys. Thomas beat every one of them even with decreased attempts, so ... . This is one of the dumbest arguments I've ever participated in. I don't even feel like typing out anything more explicit. It's there in the numbers for anybody who can think. Again, the fact that it's even debatable proves my point, which was simply that it's wrong to say that CPJ's system doesn't "develop" WR's.
 

thwgjacket

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969
DT was the primary receiver for (im guessing on this one) 90+ percent of all pass attempts; a combination of safeties cheating and DT's ability to beat man coverage resulted in huge success- having Dwyer in the backfield caused defenses to pick their poison, stopping the run or doubling DT, neither worked out well for most defenses.
So you're saying that the offense greatly improved DT's performance. Thanks for making my point.
 

Essobee

Jolly Good Fellow
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436
Location
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It all depends on your perspective. The offense is definitely NOT built for a guy to get into a passing rhythm and complete 17-20. It is built to ensure that we can ALWAYS rush for a 1st down. If we can do this, then our passing success is based on completing a few BIG passes a game. 6-14 is a terrible completion %, and definitely doesn't indicate the "rhythm" you're referring to, but if it nets us 130 yards and a TD, it could be considered a success (as long as we're running it with success).

I've said it before, but I don't care if we run, pass, or roll the ball down the field, as long as we are scoring and winning. Some folks are never going to like our offense because, at the end of the day, they want to see the ball in the air.

I agree. Much as been said about what our offense takes away from the table, but not enough about what our offense brings to the table. Points. Lots of points on the scoreboard for us good guys.
 
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thwgjacket

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Messages
969
This seems to get us back to the argument that this offense struggles against the best defenses in the country...which gets us back to the response that every offense struggles against the best defenses in the country (which is why they are the best defenses). Show me an offensive scheme that consistently does better against the best defenses in the country with the same talent gap we have and I will agree with you that we should switch to that offense. I promise you with all my heart that if we ran Alabama's offensive scheme with any of the teams we have had in the last 20 years, we never once would have sniffed the national championship like they have in nearly each of the last five years.

For me, the argument that we struggle against the best defenses comes down to one thing, and one thing only...talent. The question is, does our scheme give us at least more of an advantage vs. other teams than it hurts us in recruiting talent. I believe it does, others may disagree. But how anyone can disagree with the fundamental principle that the offensive scheme itself can work to beat the big boys (just as Tech has used it to beat UGA, FSU, USC, VT, Clemson, Miami, etc. with less talent), I will never understand. At GSU, CPJ ran his scheme with comparable or above average talent, and went 62-10 and went to the national championship game three times in five years (winning two).
The best part about the article he linked is that it talks about how Navy was a two point conversion away from sending the game to overtime against the 6th ranked Buckeyes.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
13,659
Why are you making me do this???

Here's the best WR for each of Fridge's years as OC:
97: Harvey Middleton (a lot of folks forget about ol' Harvey): 839 yds, 7 TD's, 16.1 ypc
98: Dez White: 973 yds, 9 TD, 21.2 ypc
99: Campbell: 1105 yds, 10 TD, 16 ypc
00: Campbell: 994 yds, 15.5 ypc

CPJ:
09: Thomas: 1154 yds, 8 TD, 25.1 ypc
11: 820 yds, 5 TD, 29.3 ypc

And that proves my point that you were wrong. Your statement:

"We've never had a better run of successful WR's under any previous coach/system."

Not to mention Gailey's Calvin Johnson and BeyBey run.

Fridge's system had a "run" of 4 WRs as you noted above. Don't get mad, dude...you brought it up so it's on your shoulders to prove it. And it's clear your statement is wrong.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
13,659
You're making an unfair argument here. We threw the ball more then so of course receivers are going to have better numbers. It would be like comparing running back numbers under CPJ to other coaches. It's one-sided and serves no real purpose in assessing the coach.

The argument is about the system and WRs. Fridge's system threw the ball more. How is that unfair? Is it unfair to Fridge that CPJ doesn't throw the ball enough?
 

70Jacket

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
79
So you're saying that the offense greatly improved DT's performance. Thanks for making my point.

hahaha- the part missing from your point is the two "development" years DT had with Geis; if it was all cpj development I would expect the same results or better from a player that spent his entire career as a wide receiver in cpj system.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
13,659
Time spent not doing much from a stats perspective. Listen I'm not saying that Gailey didn't coach him up, I'm sure he did, but it's really hard to argue against the fact that something clicked for DT and his production soared. The click happened with CPJ as the coach and as such I think CPJ should get more credit.

Definitely. But all players mature and get better (well, that's the hope). Calvin got better. Tashard got better. Andrew Gardner got better. Ball somehow got worse...yikes!

My point is, you just can't dismiss what DT did under Gailey. I would say CPJ probably deserves the most credit as DT blossomed under him, but who's to say that wouldn't be the case under Gailey? We'll never know...but that's why I say CPJ absolutely deserves to get credit.
 

thwgjacket

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Messages
969
hahaha- the part missing from your point is the two "development" years DT had with Geis; if it was all cpj development I would expect the same results or better from a player that spent his entire career as a wide receiver in cpj system.
Ok so we're going to hold one of the best years a WR has ever had at Tech as the standard for all receivers under CPJ? You said it yourself, the offense maximized what DT could do. The offense developed his numbers.
 

vamosjackets

GT Athlete
Featured Member
Messages
2,126
And that proves my point that you were wrong. Your statement:

"We've never had a better run of successful WR's under any previous coach/system."

Not to mention Gailey's Calvin Johnson and BeyBey run.

Fridge's system had a "run" of 4 WRs as you noted above. Don't get mad, dude...you brought it up so it's on your shoulders to prove it. And it's clear your statement is wrong.
You are the master at switching arguments. Did you ever say how old you were?

Is your argument about "developing" WR's? If so, I asked you what you wanted to use as your basis for that point. I let you define the parameters, and then I used your definition in that argument.

Now you're switching arguments to "successful". So, now we're going to need to define "successful". When I was making my original statement about successful, which you are quoting, I was going with success in the profession of WR (ie NFL), which seemed to me like the best way to talk about individual WR development (my original point) ... And, we've never had a group of WR's with more success in the NFL than Bay Bay and Hill (and Kevin Cone).

And, then you want to switch the argument up again by going from your argument about Fridge to Gailey and Calvin. I'm done.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
13,659
You are the master at switching arguments. Did you ever say how old you were?

Is your argument about "developing" WR's? If so, I asked you what you wanted to use as your basis for that point. I let you define the parameters, and then I used your definition in that argument.

Now you're switching arguments to "successful". So, now we're going to need to define "successful". When I was making my original statement about successful, which you are quoting, I was going with success in the profession of WR (ie NFL), which seemed to me like the best way to talk about individual WR development (my original point) ... And, we've never had a group of WR's with more success in the NFL than Bay Bay and Hill (and Kevin Cone).

And, then you want to switch the argument up again by going from your argument about Fridge to Gailey and Calvin. I'm done.
OH...I'm the one switching arguments. Nice.

Don't get personal man. It's unbecoming.
 

thwgjacket

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Messages
969
Haha...can't prove your point so you get into name calling. That's true intelligence.
1997- Leading rusher has 567 yards. Top 3 rushers average under 4 yards a carry.
1998- Leading rusher has less than 500 yards
1999-Leading Rusher has 837
2000-908 but only averages 4 yards per carry.

2008-1395
2009-1395 and 1037
2010- 1316
2011- 987
Keep in mind that in these last 4 years CPJ has had multiple guys over 500 yards underneath the guys with a thousand. And every year a top A-Back averages between 9-12 yards per carry.

It's not a fair comparison. Even with Fridge having arguably the best player in Georgia Tech history.
 

70Jacket

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
79
Ok so we're going to hold one of the best years a WR has ever had at Tech as the standard for all receivers under CPJ? You said it yourself, the offense maximized what DT could do. The offense developed his numbers.

Not what I said at all!
 

thwgjacket

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Messages
969
Not what I said at all!
DT was the primary receiver for (im guessing on this one) 90+ percent of all pass attempts; a combination of safeties cheating and DT's ability to beat man coverage resulted in huge success- having Dwyer in the backfield caused defenses to pick their poison, stopping the run or doubling DT, neither worked out well for most defenses.

That is you saying how the offense maximized what DT could do, is it not? Listen, on another thread you were advocating for Chris Hatcher and ignoring the fact that he inherited Jayson Foster in order to fit some agenda you have. I really can't take you seriously at all. I mean, Chris Hatcher, smh.
 

vamosjackets

GT Athlete
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Messages
2,126
OH...I'm the one switching arguments. Nice.

Don't get personal man. It's unbecoming.
Just a frustrating argument. You stepped into the middle and changed direction of the original intent of the posts.

Being serious here: One of the things inherently challenging about internet communication is that you can't see the person on the other side of the words. It would help to know more about a person when engaging with them. You engage differently with a woman vs a man, a 90 year old vs a 40 year old, etc; and those differing ways of engagement are often cultural ways of showing respect for differences. I'm truly wondering how old you are. It's totally fine to be young, it would just change the way I would engage with you. I would probably be able to show you more respect if I knew more about you. I'm sorry if I've offended. If you're not young, that's cool too, and I'm sorry I insinuated wrongly. If you don't want to reveal that, that's totally understandable.
 
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