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AE 87

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AE87, just because you disagree with something doesn't make it a rant. I liked his post and thought it brought value.

I disagree with many posts without calling them rants. So, the facts don't support your assumption. I called it a rant because of its emotionally angry tone.

I agreed with some of his concerns but disagreed with his thesis that our system ruins QBs as passers. Just because somebody says something you want to be true doesn't mean they've added value.
 
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166

Whiskey_Clear

Banned
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10,487
You said "developed" earlier, not recruited. It's not like Thomas was just awesome when he came in and the coaching staff didn't have to do anything. I would say a big reason for his success in college was going against man coverage 95% of the time.
I do recall some articles indicating D.Thomas was turning heads as a true frosh and had lots of talent. Not enuf to burn a shirt tho and I agree he improved greatly year to year.
 

33jacket

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I disagree with many posts without calling them rants. So, the facts don't support your assumption. I called it a rant because of its emotionally angry tone.

I agreed with some of his concerns but disagreed with his thesis that our system ruins QBs as passers. Just because somebody says something you want to be true doesn't mean they've added value.

if mine is a rant then you have the equivalent amount of rants. I shared my opinion, I do believe the system ruins QBs as passers. Its my opinion. Disagree or Agree, I am good with either but its not a rant, its an opinion. I would love to know how the angry tone comes out of text too. Here is a classic case of eye of the reader....I can get some of you boys so riled up with a post. Its great. Its amazing how serious fonts take these messages and boards. some specific posters i know exactly what buttons to push ha! :)
 

33jacket

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Ok so if you think he can learn the playbook (I do too) do you think that's on Stephen Hill more than CPJ? It hasn't hurt DT and I remember a big knock on Stephen Hill while at tech was work ethic from a mental standpoint.

No what I am saying is Hill has such a HUGE learning curve coming purely from our O with no proset basis it is hard for him to learn it in time (mornigwheg runs a reallly complex O) to make a splash on the NFL timetable

The NFL timetable for a player is 2 to 3 years at the most. This fact, is that hill can't seem to learn it in the very quick and unforgiving NFL timeframe. This isn't a topic of intelligence. Its a topic of the fact Hill has had no similar WR playbook or baseline to build off of or at least relate to comparing his Jets playbook to his prior schoolings....making his learning timetable much longer, harder etc. Baybay had the benefit of 2 full years running a more similar proset O. It gave him some baseline to relate too...it really did. He ran slot stuff outside stuff etc etc...the comparisons aren't the same or fair.

Look guys you can't have it both ways. You can't say how creative our run game is and it runs 80% of the time, then state it doesn't hurt WR, WR development, the passing game maturation etc. It does in my opinion. Can GT have an effective pass game. TOTALLY. I want us to be like auburn. Not run 80/20, but run 65/35 with a more effective and a tad more complex passing offense. True 3 and 4 wr sets, bigger bodies working the middle zone (how many times have you seen Waller work the middle and squat in the zone??? ZERO, this a classic NFL route...we dont' do it ....at all...its a read LB/S covg zone squat and we don't do it. How many times you see julio jones, CJ etc do it over the middle?? A ton....Now you have to learn to read the D covg pre and post snap, adjust your route and squat in the proper spot in 2.3 seconds. You have to do this with multiple sets, d alignments etc etc...a ton to learn in the NFL when you never did it.)

But my point is back to what I was trying to convey from the get go. GT will never have a pass game we can consistently rely on for production. It will always be a luxury, a big play shot here and there etc. Its the way the system is designed. Does that mean its wrong? Does it mean its bad? Nope. It just means what it means. Its designed that way. Its not passer friendly. Its hard to pass out of and hard to block using some of our schemes and so it hurts QBs IMO

Personally its wrong for me because I think we do need more balance (auburn levels) and variety in the pass complexity. But for many of you it may be just fine and thats fine.
 
Last edited:

70Jacket

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
79
No what I am saying is Hill has such a HUGE learning curve coming purely from our O with no proset basis it is hard for him to learn it in time (mornigwheg runs a reallly complex O) to make a splash on the NFL timetable

The NFL timetable for a player is 2 to 3 years at the most. This fact, is that hill can't seem to learn it in the very quick and unforgiving NFL timeframe. This isn't a topic of intelligence. Its a topic of the fact Hill has had no similar WR playbook or baseline to build off of or at least relate to comparing his Jets playbook to his prior schoolings....making his learning timetable much longer, harder etc. Baybay had the benefit of 2 full years running a more similar proset O. It gave him some baseline to relate too...it really did. He ran slot stuff outside stuff etc etc...the comparisons aren't the same or fair.

Look guys you can't have it both ways. You can't say how creative our run game is and it runs 80% of the time, then state it doesn't hurt WR, WR development, the passing game maturation etc. It does in my opinion. Can GT have an effective pass game. TOTALLY. I want us to be like auburn. Not run 80/20, but run 65/35 with a more effective and a tad more complex passing offense. True 3 and 4 wr sets, bigger bodies working the middle zone (how many times have you seen Waller work the middle and squat in the zone??? ZERO, this a classic NFL route...we dont' do it ....at all...its a read LB/S covg zone squat and we don't do it. How many times you see julio jones, CJ etc do it over the middle?? A ton....Now you have to learn to read the D covg pre and post snap, adjust your route and squat in the proper spot in 2.3 seconds. You have to do this with multiple sets, d alignments etc etc...a ton to learn in the NFL when you never did it.)

But my point is back to what I was trying to convey from the get go. GT will never have a pass game we can consistently rely on for production. It will always be a luxury, a big play shot here and there etc. Its the way the system is designed. Does that mean its wrong? Does it mean its bad? Nope. It just means what it means. Its designed that way. Its not passer friendly. Its hard to pass out of and hard to block using some of our schemes and so it hurts QBs IMO

Personally its wrong for me because I think we do need more balance (auburn levels) and variety in the pass complexity. But for many of you it may be just fine and thats fine.

33- well said!

If they don't comprehend the message now it's because they don't want to face the reality.
 

AE 87

Helluva Engineer
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12,967
if mine is a rant then you have the equivalent amount of rants. I shared my opinion, I do believe the system ruins QBs as passers. Its my opinion. Disagree or Agree, I am good with either but its not a rant, its an opinion. I would love to know how the angry tone comes out of text too. Here is a classic case of eye of the reader....I can get some of you boys so riled up with a post. Its great. Its amazing how serious fonts take these messages and boards. some specific posters i know exactly what buttons to push ha! :)

Seriously? Do you have to be a jerk about everything? I'm shaking my head in sadness not anger. There are several guys on here who are still kids and act like it. I try to change there opinions with facts, but I know they are too immature. You're grown. I expected more from you than cheap potshots. Just sad.
 

33jacket

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AE relax man, don't be so hurt here, its a message board. I am not being a jerk, even if you read it that way. I don't recall any cheap potshots at all. In fact I had none til u called me a ranter!

FYI I am not sure if you are flipping out our computer is just continually posting the same response. Gosh I hope its the latter otherwise seriously man chill...

I know the facts, I also know what I know about the game etc. Combine the two and I formulate my position. Neither in a vacuum prove anything. The facts (if you mean stats) are always misleading if looked at in a vacuum. You have to look on the field too....regardless of what the stat says...both ways.
 

Longestday

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Hill had the measurables but not the talent. I thought the whole reason they took him was to block, but they never installed Tim. Does anyone here think he is as talented as Smelter?

GT does not usually get the high end WR recruits and the NFL should only take the best of the best. I love all our GT WRs, and I think Smelter is one of the only high end athletically talented WR I have seen in the last few years. Waller has measurables and speed, but he seems to be missing what Smelter has... it could be confidence or meanness. I will say I saw glimpses of Waller's possible potential last year.

If you have talent or can develop that talent and have the measurables, I think you can get in the NFL through GT. Ebron, Sammy, or the WR from Maryland all would have made the NFL going through GT. Can the diamond in the rough... well Hill made it to the NFL.

GT could not pass block at all last year. Pass blocking was even worse than 2012. I did not know that was possible. I think pre snap pressure really gets to Vad when he knows the big monsters are coming for him. I do not think he was a great passer, but he would have been much better had he had a little more confidence in some protection. If he was worried about being hit on the run, do you think he was worried like crazy about being hit in the pocket? JT's knockout proved what Vad knew in the Miami game.

We need someone with confidence and can read the field before the snap, read the after snap field in <3 seconds, and make the best decision of pass, throw off, or scramble. Add in some better touch as well.
 

dressedcheeseside

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I don't think learning NFL routes, etc is as complicated and as dependent on "baseline" experience as 33 thinks. For one, the kid isn't in college anymore, he doens't go to classes, he doesn't have projects to complete, he doesn't have a limited number of practice hours per week. IT'S HIS JOB, now. He can devote every waking hour to getting better and learning what he needs to learn. It ain't rocket science.

I don't think the route running is his problem anyway, it's catching the damn ball.
 

33jacket

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I don't think learning NFL routes, etc is as complicated and as dependent on "baseline" experience as 33 thinks. For one, the kid isn't in college anymore, he doens't go to classes, he doesn't have projects to complete, he doesn't have a limited number of practice hours per week. IT'S HIS JOB, now. He can devote every waking hour to getting better and learning what he needs to learn. It ain't rocket science.

I don't think the route running is his problem anyway, it's catching the damn ball.

routes are a big problem for Hill. What does running routes mean. Does it mean physically going out 10 yards and cutting one way or another? That is 10% of running routes. In fact running routes are so much an issue for hill, he is basically been relegated to a clear out role. Go deep and free up the d for the under route. Time after time last year that is all he did. In fact so much so, you can literally google it and people online analyzed/talked about it.

What else is involved? launch points. DB inside outside tech and how to set him up based on your route. Reading coverage mid route. Reading coverage presnap. Body position in relation to S/CB zone. Body position in relation to passing windows the QB has to use. Then knowing all of this based on x,y,z position, multiple formations etc. And you have to do all this, identical to what the QB would read and react to. Plays in the NFL are all option routes....or largely option routes. WR predictability for a QB is THE number one goal...and it all comes down to running routes

If you don't think a baseline in doing much of this helps before you get into the NFL you are way off man. Its why some WR come in NFL ready and others don't.Same with QBs, ones who play in a more mature check and progression read system are more nfl ready vs others.
 

dressedcheeseside

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routes are a big problem for Hill. What does running routes mean. Does it mean physically going out 10 yards and cutting one way or another? That is 10% of running routes. In fact running routes are so much an issue for hill, he is basically been relegated to a clear out role. Go deep and free up the d for the under route. Time after time last year that is all he did. In fact so much so, you can literally google it and people online analyzed/talked about it.

What else is involved? launch points. DB inside outside tech and how to set him up based on your route. Reading coverage mid route. Reading coverage presnap. Body position in relation to S/CB zone. Body position in relation to passing windows the QB has to use. Then knowing all of this based on x,y,z position, multiple formations etc.

If you don't think a baseline in doing much of this helps before you get into the NFL you are way off man. Its why some WR come in NFL ready and others don't.Same with QBs, ones who play in a more mature check and progression read system are more nfl ready vs others.
I know it helps, but if a kid has loads of natural talent, instincts, skill (can catch a ball), and work ethic.... he can learn all that stuff on the job. He has literally nothing else to do but that.
 

33jacket

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I know it helps, but if a kid has loads of natural talent, instincts, skill (can catch a ball), and work ethic.... he can learn all that stuff on the job. He has literally nothing else to do but that.

read this. Sure he can dedicate his time to the trade, and absolutely there is more to picking up the position than simply the NCAA offense he came from. But my premise of my post is playing in GTs puts him one more step behind the rest of the field than if he played lets say in UGA's, Bamas, or Stanfords more NFL traditional play selection. So because of this, his learning curve is steeper and longer...thats my point...

But just read the below. It is a huge learning curve and even moreso when coming from our O and a limited route tree compared to other colleges...let alone NFL. Article talks about how its already a hard transition...my opinion is coming from GTs is even harder...

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/05/02/nfl-draft-wide-receiver-deep-impact/
 

LongforDodd

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Our WRs often get high marks from NFL people for being tough and great blockers. That's a very important and overlooked aspect of being an NFL WR. It's a pretty good reason why Kevin Cone made the Falcons.

However, I'm not seeing in that article where a Jet executive, coach, or player said Hill was "well schooled" because of our offense. That was simply a nice "get to know Hill and his background" article for a high draft pick and the Jet's fan base. I wouldn't read too much into the headline when two high profile WRs (DT and Hill) are quoted about our offense in other places.
Agreed.



Maybe, but I am pretty sure that if you take a look back at the #47th ranked QB in each class in Scout's historical rankings, you are not going to find a lot of program changers. I could be wrong, but I would be surprised.



This is where we differ. I would say that GT wasn't lucky enough to have Vad take advantage of everything GT had in place for him to succeed.

I think we're both right. There was a lot for GT and PJ to work with but it's just not in PJ's DNA to have to work so hard to make a QB with Vad's skills mesh with what is truly in PJ's DNA. I have no idea what went on during Vad's recruitment but the 17/18 year old didn't understand whatever it was that PJ told him. Once he got on the field we all saw what Vad was capable of doing - good and bad - but at the end of the day there wasn't enough coaching and blocking to make it all work. Yes, Vad made some bad decisions on the field but he was continually trying to make decisions with defenders in places that he should be expected to see them so frequently.
 

LongforDodd

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1,810
Hill had the measurables but not the talent. I thought the whole reason they took him was to block, but they never installed Tim. Does anyone here think he is as talented as Smelter?

GT does not usually get the high end WR recruits and the NFL should only take the best of the best. I love all our GT WRs, and I think Smelter is one of the only high end athletically talented WR I have seen in the last few years. Waller has measurables and speed, but he seems to be missing what Smelter has... it could be confidence or meanness. I will say I saw glimpses of Waller's possible potential last year.

If you have talent or can develop that talent and have the measurables, I think you can get in the NFL through GT. Ebron, Sammy, or the WR from Maryland all would have made the NFL going through GT. Can the diamond in the rough... well Hill made it to the NFL.

GT could not pass block at all last year. Pass blocking was even worse than 2012. I did not know that was possible. I think pre snap pressure really gets to Vad when he knows the big monsters are coming for him. I do not think he was a great passer, but he would have been much better had he had a little more confidence in some protection. If he was worried about being hit on the run, do you think he was worried like crazy about being hit in the pocket? JT's knockout proved what Vad knew in the Miami game.

We need someone with confidence and can read the field before the snap, read the after snap field in <3 seconds, and make the best decision of pass, throw off, or scramble. Add in some better touch as well.

I think Hill's problem was his vision. He missed/dropped alot of passes that were coming right at him at opposed to coming at him at angles. It makes a bunch of difference in being able to locate the ball and being able to correctly put your hands on it within that split second. The old hand to eye coordination thing.
 
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