Exciting times just around the corner!

AlabamaBuzz

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Hartselle, AL (originally Rome, GA)
Open the link attached here: Link
Fast forward to 31:50 and watch the slow motion replay of that 3rd and 6 pass play....and listen to the commentators as they say "This is not a very good scheme. Having a 225 pound running back trying to block a 270 pound defensive end." There are some other interesting comments there, too but you guys will discount them because of who said them.

But a few things to note on that play:
- Vad takes a 5-step drop on the play. He is hit just after he plants his foot on the 5th step.
- We send 2 receivers into a 2-deep ZONE coverage; not man-to-man. Both safeties roll over to play side and we end up with 4 defenders covering 2 receivers. Even if Vad had time, there would have been no downfield receiver to throw it to.
- This isn't an exception in our blocking schemes. If you want to watch the entire game there, go ahead. You'll see our A- and B- backs try to block defenders (and miss) most of the night. If you also bother to do so, you'll see the same scheme used in many other games.

Edited:
You will also note that many of the better teams we play will play 2, 3, or 4 deep zones against us just as often, if not moreso, than they play man-to-man against us.


Yes, and the reason they can do this is because they have the horses up front to deal with our blocking (or lack of it). The better teams with better talent are able to only put 6 or 7 in the box....as long as they stick to their assignments.
 

IronJacket7

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,393
This.

JT's body of work is simply too small to conclusively say "he's a better fit for the offense" or that our offense will be better in his hands. He's flashed great potential on a few plays that have fans salivating to see what he can do full time....BUT you know who else had the fans doing the same thing in limited number of snaps in 2012? Vad.

We're heading into CPJ's 7th year (boy time flies!)...and I've seen this kind of talk about players potential to do this or that one too many times. People forget that there are other really good coaches and other really good players in this league (ACC was #2 in NFL players drafted BTW) that are going to try to stop JT (or TB) from making those plays. The more JT plays, the more DCs have film to scheme against him and CPJ...as we saw with Vad.

In all honesty, I'm more worried about our OL than I am about our QB
. JT or TB will be fine...QB has never really been a problem...even in 2013. OL play is pivotal for any offense, and that's what worries me about our 2014 edition. We're young and inexperienced. Not a good combo.

+1
 

ATL1

Helluva Engineer
Messages
7,377
Open the link attached here: Link
Fast forward to 31:50 and watch the slow motion replay of that 3rd and 6 pass play....and listen to the commentators as they say "This is not a very good scheme. Having a 225 pound running back trying to block a 270 pound defensive end." There are some other interesting comments there, too but you guys will discount them because of who said them.

But a few things to note on that play:
- Vad takes a 5-step drop on the play. He is hit just after he plants his foot on the 5th step.
- We send 2 receivers into a 2-deep ZONE coverage; not man-to-man. Both safeties roll over to play side and we end up with 4 defenders covering 2 receivers. Even if Vad had time, there would have been no downfield receiver to throw it to.
- This isn't an exception in our blocking schemes. If you want to watch the entire game there, go ahead. You'll see our A- and B- backs try to block defenders (and miss) most of the night. If you also bother to do so, you'll see the same scheme used in many other games.

Edited:
You will also note that many of the better teams we play will play 2, 3, or 4 deep zones against us just as often, if not moreso, than they play man-to-man against us.

I posted how VTech defends us zone not man to man.
 

ATL1

Helluva Engineer
Messages
7,377
I'm saying our offense often gives our WR's a much better chance at "beating their man" than other systems precisely because our offense IS "all about the ability to run". The DB's have no choice than to continually be focusing on their run support duties. Because our offense is run first, the DB's have to also be run first. So, when we pass we've got a huge advantage. That's why we've been able to have one of the top passing efficiency offenses in the nation with the QB's we've had. Our QB's under CPJ are probably on the lower end of raw throwing ability of all BCS QB's in the nation, I don't think anybody would question that. (Of course, I think we could've probably said the same for our QB's under many other regimes as well). And yet, we still have good efficiency stats. That's what our offense is about, that's what it does for us. Of course, it's also about using the passing game at the right time, and that is going to totally depend on our effectiveness in our running game. Which is why most of us are very excited about our offense refocusing on what it does best. When that stuff works, we're a scary team to defend. Ask any defensive coach.

That's fine but the better defenses don't play us man to man in the backfield.
http://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-football/2014/05/35605/film-study-defending-navy-flexbone
 

RamblinCharger

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Location
Alabama
For a while there CPJ tried to tell everyone that JT's arm was just as strong as Vad's...anyone that still has their sight could see that clearly was not the case. Not that arm strength makes you a great passer (see Danny Wuerfall), but we're going to lose the threat of a deep pass on any given play if JT doesn't have time to set his feet and put his weight behind throws where as Vad had the ability to flick his wrist and send the ball 40-50 yards down the field.

From JTs bio (senior season):



From Vad's bio (senior season):



Vad was more prolific in the air AND on the ground. That's not saying JT can't be a great passer on this level, but it does show that Vad was a high level and more accomplished passer coming out of HS.

I think JT will do well in this offense if he can stay healthy. I think the whole "fits the offense" thing is overplayed with some on this board. JT will probably do some things better than Vad, but I also think there are some things he won't do as well as Vad. There's going to be a give and take there. Vad did well as a first year starter, and probably would have done even better with more experience. JT will have to work behind an inexperienced and young OL...so he may be at a disadvantage as a first year starter (not that the OL Vad played behind was great either).

The one thing I am excited about JT is that a small crease in the defense can lead to a HUGE gain...it's just a matter of our guys giving him that small crease. If JT can get past the first level, that's where his magic comes in. The hope is that our guys can block well enough to get him to that second level.

Justins high school: roughly 2200 students and the best football program in the state of Alabama, which has one of the best high school football scenes in the country, and also Prattville happens to be one of the best football programs in the entire country period.

Hillside high: 1400 students, and none of the accolades for high schools in NC which is a basketball state.

These stats are pointless, justin is better and we'll all get to witness that soon.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,973
My replies regarding WR's in this thread were in response to a post that said our offense doesn't "develop" WR's. So, I'm saying the fact that we've had WR's become more successful coming out of this offense than any other in our history suggests otherwise.

Here's the original post from where my whole train of thought originated:


Bay Bay put up one of the best seasons by a GT WR ever (I think 2'nd best to CJ's last year) in 2009 in the CPJ system. And, Hill also put up a great season his last year (not sure where it would rank). Smelter has a good chance to continue that. Campbell, Dez, Watkins, Glover, even Smith... Those guys were good and excelled in Fridge's system. But, none had the success that Thomas and Hill have/will have, and perhaps Smelter as well, in the NFL. If we compare their numbers in college, none will have the success in college Bay Bay had. The best will probably be comparable to Hill's last year.

Anyway, again the whole thing was just a response to the "developing WR's" argument.
I think Fridge's group was awesome, and there's a good argument to be made that they were the best group at GT ever. But, the fact that it's even a debate makes my point - that CPJ's offense doesn't develop WR's is wrong.

I don't see how you can say "My replies regarding WR's in this thread were in response to a post that said our offense doesn't "develop" WR's. So, I'm saying the fact that we've had WR's become more successful coming out of this offense than any other in our history suggests otherwise."..and then defend your statement that "We've never had a better run of successful WR's under any previous coach/system." by using their pro career one of your defenses.

Once they're in the pros, it's the NFL that's taking over their development.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000...hill-working-on-routerunning-skills-with-jets
http://forums.denverbroncos.com/sho...s-Demaryius-Thomas-prepares-Jets-Hill-for-NFL

Don't forget, BeyBey spent 1 year in Gailey's pro offfense (2 years if you include the redshirt year), so I'm not sure you can say that CPJ gets 100% credit. There's a little grey area there. As for Stephen Hill...he got drafted in the 2nd round, but he's a candidate to get cut from the team this year because he hasn't shown the development they thought he'd have by now. Jets didn't draft 2 WRs for no reason:

http://sportsglory.com/nfl/jets-patience-wearing-thin-receiver-stephen-hill/17239

Just Calvin Johnson alone would neautralize your argument for against BeyBey in this system (in college and pros). Smelter is still TBD so I wouldn't really count that until his story is finished.
 

vamosjackets

GT Athlete
Featured Member
Messages
2,126
Open the link attached here: Link
Fast forward to 31:50 and watch the slow motion replay of that 3rd and 6 pass play....and listen to the commentators as they say "This is not a very good scheme. Having a 225 pound running back trying to block a 270 pound defensive end." There are some other interesting comments there, too but you guys will discount them because of who said them.

But a few things to note on that play:
- Vad takes a 5-step drop on the play. He is hit just after he plants his foot on the 5th step.
- We send 2 receivers into a 2-deep ZONE coverage; not man-to-man. Both safeties roll over to play side and we end up with 4 defenders covering 2 receivers. Even if Vad had time, there would have been no downfield receiver to throw it to.
- This isn't an exception in our blocking schemes. If you want to watch the entire game there, go ahead. You'll see our A- and B- backs try to block defenders (and miss) most of the night. If you also bother to do so, you'll see the same scheme used in many other games.

Edited:
You will also note that many of the better teams we play will play 2, 3, or 4 deep zones against us just as often, if not moreso, than they play man-to-man against us.
Here is a key part of my post, which you quoted, that pertains to all of exactly what you just typed.
Of course, it's also about using the passing game at the right time, and that is going to totally depend on our effectiveness in our running game. Which is why most of us are very excited about our offense refocusing on what it does best. When that stuff works, we're a scary team to defend. Ask any defensive coach.

Our offense is going to struggle a little more than others throwing in obvious passing situations. It's going to excel much more than others throwing in normal situations. That's why it makes all the sense in the world to focus on getting better at what we do.

If a defense can sit in 2 deep coverage all game, there's very little doubt we're going to get beat, unless our defense also dominates the opposition. There's no way a defense should be able to sit in a defense like that against our offense. If they dominate us that much up front, I'm not sure we would've stood much of a chance anyway, no matter what system we run or who is our coach. Obviously in a 3rd and 6, a team is likely to be in a more pass-oriented defense. In our best offensive seasons, we've been able to run for a first down even on 3rd and 6. BTW, most teams are going to struggle on 3rd and 6. That's why you hear people say all the time, we want to have manageable 3rd down situations. Or we want to get them in 3rd and long. When the defense can pin their ears back in rushing the passer and cover the quick routes, it's going to be tough. Best chance you have at converting a 3rd and long is to have a QB who is athletic enough to perhaps avoid that initial rush and extend the play. That's what a Manziel or a RGIII or Nick Marshall, or even Russell Wilson does for you. It should also be what our QB's can do for us sometimes too.
 

70Jacket

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
79
You said "developed" earlier, not recruited. It's not like Thomas was just awesome when he came in and the coaching staff didn't have to do anything. I would say a big reason for his success in college was going against man coverage 95% of the time.

DT had two years under Geis and practiced with CJ, he learned to read defenses from a pro style perspective with the primary objective being route running and catching the ball; cpj gets credit for the on field results but you can't discount the two years under Geis and CJ; man coverage against DT was high risk and he made-em pay, I would argue he developed technique for breaking man coverage during his two years with Geis. Transitioning to the WR blocking scheme in cpj offense was elementary for DT....... I do believe DT was exceptional when he arrived and both coaching staffs developed his talent to prove it, your right i said "developed;" you can't give cpj all the credit for DT's development.
 

Techster

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Messages
12,973
Justins high school: roughly 2200 students and the best football program in the state of Alabama, which has one of the best high school football scenes in the country, and also Prattville happens to be one of the best football programs in the entire country period.

Hillside high: 1400 students, and none of the accolades for high schools in NC which is a basketball state.

These stats are pointless, justin is better and we'll all get to witness that soon.

Um, did you even read the post?

I hope Justin is better for GT's offense NOW. He better be...as our QB goes so does our season.
 

vamosjackets

GT Athlete
Featured Member
Messages
2,126
I don't see how you can say "My replies regarding WR's in this thread were in response to a post that said our offense doesn't "develop" WR's. So, I'm saying the fact that we've had WR's become more successful coming out of this offense than any other in our history suggests otherwise."..and then defend your statement that "We've never had a better run of successful WR's under any previous coach/system." by using their pro career one of your defenses.

Once they're in the pros, it's the NFL that's taking over their development.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000...hill-working-on-routerunning-skills-with-jets
http://forums.denverbroncos.com/sho...s-Demaryius-Thomas-prepares-Jets-Hill-for-NFL

Don't forget, BeyBey spent 1 year in Gailey's pro offfense (2 years if you include the redshirt year), so I'm not sure you can say that CPJ gets 100% credit. There's a little grey area there. As for Stephen Hill...he got drafted in the 2nd round, but he's a candidate to get cut from the team this year because he hasn't shown the development they thought he'd have by now. Jets didn't draft 2 WRs for no reason:

http://sportsglory.com/nfl/jets-patience-wearing-thin-receiver-stephen-hill/17239

Just Calvin Johnson alone would neautralize your argument for against BeyBey in this system (in college and pros). Smelter is still TBD so I wouldn't really count that until his story is finished.
So, what did Fridge's WR's do in the NFL to prove how well they were "developed" in their college systems?
 

Techster

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12,973
So, what did Fridge's WR's do in the NFL to prove how well they were "developed" in their college systems?

That's my point...you can't use their pro careers as a defense for "We've never had a better run of successful WR's under any previous coach/system."

The large part of your argument is BeyBey...and BeyBey himself shot that down:

http://forums.denverbroncos.com/sho...s-Demaryius-Thomas-prepares-Jets-Hill-for-NFL

Coming from Georgia Tech, which ran a triple-option offense, New York Jets second-round wide receiver Stephen Hill faces that challenge this year, but he's getting some assistance from former Yellow Jackets teammate Demaryius Thomas, as well as Georgia Tech alum Calvin Johnson, Brian Costello of the New York Post reports.


"It was kind of tough because being in the triple-option, you’re in two receivers most of the time," Thomas said. "We didn’t have many routes to go over or combinations of routes. When I first got here and saw the playbook, it was kind of tough because you had all sorts of things thrown your way. You’ve got to get used to audibles. We never did audibles in college."

You're trying to justify CPJ's receivers by usuing pro careers...but is CPJ still coaching them in the pros? Not to mention, BeyBey spent as much time in Gailey's system than he did in CPJ's system.
 

AE 87

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,967
@33jacket your rant made a lot of good points, but I'm not sure why it was in this thread. I didn't see anyone complaining that Vad wasn't Case Keenum. At most, the complaint was that he wasn't JN or TW.

However, the facts don't support you, imo. The NCAA passer rating includes attempts, comp%, TDs and int, and still TWs 2011 passer rating would've been 13th in the country (too few att per game to count).

Also, if you just look at ypa, we were 1st or 2nd 3 of 6 and top 25 5 of 6.
 

John

Peacekeeper
Staff member
Messages
2,183
I like JT a lot. Whats not to like about an athlete of his caliber. However, I will wait until about 5 or 6 games into the season before I can truly say if I think he or TB is the right QB for us.

I just haven't seen enough yet from either of them.
Wish everyone did this when Vad got here. :unsure:
 

vamosjackets

GT Athlete
Featured Member
Messages
2,126
That's my point...you can't use their pro careers as a defense for "We've never had a better run of successful WR's under any previous coach/system."

The large part of your argument is BeyBey...and BeyBey himself shot that down:

http://forums.denverbroncos.com/sho...s-Demaryius-Thomas-prepares-Jets-Hill-for-NFL



You're trying to justify CPJ's receivers by usuing pro careers...but is CPJ still coaching them in the pros? Not to mention, BeyBey spent as much time in Gailey's system than he did in CPJ's system.
So, what do you want to use as your basis for determining how much a coach/offense "develops" WR's?
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,973
Ok, awesome. So, which of Fridge's WR's had better college production than Bay Bay under CPJ in 2009? Which of them even had better college production than Hill under CPJ in 2011?

Friedgen was OC 1997-2000

KELLY CAMBELL:
http://www.ramblinwreck.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/campbell_kelly00.html

DEZ WHITE:
http://www.ramblinwreck.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/white_dez00.html

That's two ALL-ACC Wrs there.

KERRY WATKINS:
http://www.ramblinwreck.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/watkins_kerry00.html

As the 3rd WR in Friedgen's 2000 offense, he had similar stats to Stephen Hill's last year here...and Hill was the #1 WR in our offense.
 

thwgjacket

Guest
Messages
969
DT had two years under Geis and practiced with CJ, he learned to read defenses from a pro style perspective with the primary objective being route running and catching the ball; cpj gets credit for the on field results but you can't discount the two years under Geis and CJ; man coverage against DT was high risk and he made-em pay, I would argue he developed technique for breaking man coverage during his two years with Geis. Transitioning to the WR blocking scheme in cpj offense was elementary for DT....... I do believe DT was exceptional when he arrived and both coaching staffs developed his talent to prove it, your right i said "developed;" you can't give cpj all the credit for DT's development.
500 yards his RS Freshman year. 600 yards his RS Sophomore year. Over 1000 and led the ACC his RS Junior year. Something clicked between 08 and 09 for him when CPJ was the coach. You can argue whatever you want but unless you were at the practices you have no evidence other than stats from games. The stats show a vast improvement after CPJ got here.
 

Techster

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12,973
500 yards his RS Freshman year. 600 yards his RS Sophomore year. Over 1000 and led the ACC his RS Junior year. Something clicked between 08 and 09 for him when CPJ was the coach. You can argue whatever you want but unless you were at the practices you have no evidence other than stats from games. The stats show a vast improvement after CPJ got here.

CPJ should absolutely get credit for developing BeyBey...but you can't dismiss the time he spent under Gailey either.
 

thwgjacket

Guest
Messages
969
CPJ should absolutely get credit for developing BeyBey...but you can't dismiss the time he spent under Gailey either.
Time spent not doing much from a stats perspective. Listen I'm not saying that Gailey didn't coach him up, I'm sure he did, but it's really hard to argue against the fact that something clicked for DT and his production soared. The click happened with CPJ as the coach and as such I think CPJ should get more credit.
 
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