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33jacket

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My post was in response to this, which I perceived as your thesis.



Now, it seems logical to me that comp% will be lower when you throw more lower % passes (long) and that you will have fewer pass yards when you throw fewer passes.

So please explain why these stats are better than passer rating for measuring whether a QBs ability to pass has been ruined. Why do you think the passer rating was invented if not for measuring ability to pass?

Or do you feel that TW was just a great QB and would've been top 5 rather than top 15 if not ruined by CPJs system?

Because the formula is based on the typical offense that passes more than us. In other words we have so few attempts and our only passing game is the deep ball if you miss 2 but hit one 60 yarder the formula rewards you. Now in a passing offense with many attempts this one hit of 60 yards is more hidden statistically. Passing efficiency is meant to portray and effective (which we can be) but also consistent passing game which we are not even close to being. And that is my point. We are not setup to ever have a consistent passing game period despite the efficiency numbers. When we hit a big play can it and is it effective. Yes. Can we still be productive on o for sure! But my points are based in the general fans desire to have a more consistent passing game and i am pointing out why thay will never be the case and the efficiency stat doesnt help either side of the argument. It just says we are effective when we hit a big pass. Ok yes we are. No biggy.

But we will never have a consistent rhythmic passing game with decent comp percentages by design. Again. Doesnt mean the o cant be fine it is real that we are not set up schematically to pass. Thats my point
 

GTRX7

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But we will never have a consistent rhythmic passing game with decent comp percentages by design. Again. Doesnt mean the o cant be fine it is real that we are not set up schematically to pass. Thats my point

So your point is just that our offense is set up schematically to run more than pass and we can be efficient and effective at passing but not prolific? Okay, I think we all agree with that.
 

GTRX7

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Vad, on the other hand, has much, more potential to be a very good passer. It's unfortunate for him that he got stuck at GT in PJ's system to where he obviously did not have a system, coaching, or surrounding cast for him to develop his passing skills in.

Here is what confuses me about the Vad hype. The ONLY reason he was considered a great QB prospect at Tech was because of our system, not in spite of it. Coming out of high school, he had offers to play QB for Duke and North Carolina, not Alabama and FSU. He was ranked by Scout as a 3* and the 47th best quarterback in his class. He was also a 3* on Rivals with no national or positional ranking. According to ESPN, where he was ranked highest, he was an athlete, not a quarterback. He may turn out to play well at James Madison, but lets not act like he was a highly ranked drop back pro style QB coming out of high school that CPJ just wasted.
 

AE 87

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Because the formula is based on the typical offense that passes more than us. In other words we have so few attempts and our only passing game is the deep ball if you miss 2 but hit one 60 yarder the formula rewards you. Now in a passing offense with many attempts this one hit of 60 yards is more hidden statistically. Passing efficiency is meant to portray and effective (which we can be) but also consistent passing game which we are not even close to being. And that is my point. We are not setup to ever have a consistent passing game period despite the efficiency numbers. When we hit a big play can it and is it effective. Yes. Can we still be productive on o for sure! But my points are based in the general fans desire to have a more consistent passing game and i am pointing out why thay will never be the case and the efficiency stat doesnt help either side of the argument. It just says we are effective when we hit a big pass. Ok yes we are. No biggy.

But we will never have a consistent rhythmic passing game with decent comp percentages by design. Again. Doesnt mean the o cant be fine it is real that we are not set up schematically to pass. Thats my point

Fair enough. I don't think you answered my question but @GTRX7 pretty much said what I would.
 

33jacket

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You don't think it has anything to do with the fact that Hill's hands are like two marble slabs? Also, could you link the article that talks about how Hill can't learn the playbook? Would be an interesting read.

Here is one about him struggling to learn
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...gled-with-whole-football-concept-last-season/

Here is another about him not knowing how to run routes and being used as a decoy for a variety of reasons
http://turnonthejets.com/2013/11/new-york-jets-passing-breakdown-week-9/

Here it talks about his mental mistakes and needing to learn the playbook more
http://thejetsblog.com/player-profile/2013-roster-countdown-84-stephen-hill/

Can he learn the playbook i am sure. Has he? nope. He is used as a clearout guy who still struggles with the route tree and mental side of the game.
 

LongforDodd

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Here is what confuses me about the Vad hype. The ONLY reason he was considered a great QB prospect at Tech was because of our system, not in spite of it. Coming out of high school, he had offers to play QB for Duke and North Carolina, not Alabama and FSU. He was ranked by Scout as a 3* and the 47th best quarterback in his class. He was also a 3* on Rivals with no national or positional ranking. According to ESPN, where he was ranked highest, he was an athlete, not a quarterback. He may turn out to play well at James Madison, but lets not act like he was a highly ranked drop back pro style QB coming out of high school that CPJ just wasted.

Vad was merely a very good athlete with the potential to be a very good QB whose skills never matured while he stopped over on North Ave. The NCAA is/was replete with QB's of his skill level that were very successful. GT wasn't lucky enough to have everything in place to take advantage of Vad.
 

vamosjackets

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Development of a wr to me does not mean single season stats as a proof. Production and development of your craft are not necessarily hand and hand.

As an example. Hill stinks in the nfl. Cant learn the playbook, plays slow and is having trouble picking the offense up. Why? As baybay points out in his quote is because they dont see a route tree or anything close to the nfl.

So then did paul develop hill? No. Hill was a great athlete that fit an aspect of the system that its designed for. The 9 route. And had good production his final year. But paul did not help hill in his craft much as shown in the nfl. And backed up by baybay saying that system didnt help him in his craft much either. Its just a fact.

Now did those two guys have two of the single best seasons. Sure. Did they also account for 70-80percent of the passing offense. Yup. But to say paul developed them is off imo. The difference in baybay and hill is simply laerning the nfl system quick. Fyi many with short memories forget baybays first two years were not that great and many were thinking he was a bust. Fact.
I actually totally agree ... NOTHING in this entire thread, including my own arguments prove anything about CPJ's development of WR's. It depends a whole lot on the raw material the athlete came in with. But, it at least should help disprove the original assertion that CPJ DOESN'T DEVELOP WR's. That's the original statement that started it all. And, there is absolutely no argument resembling objectivity that could come close to showing that.
 

GTRX7

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Vad was merely a very good athlete with the potential to be a very good QB whose skills never matured while he stopped over on North Ave.

Agreed.

The NCAA is/was replete with QB's of his skill level that were very successful.

Maybe, but I am pretty sure that if you take a look back at the #47th ranked QB in each class in Scout's historical rankings, you are not going to find a lot of program changers. I could be wrong, but I would be surprised.

GT wasn't lucky enough to have everything in place to take advantage of Vad.

This is where we differ. I would say that GT wasn't lucky enough to have Vad take advantage of everything GT had in place for him to succeed.
 

ATL1

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I'm lost are you
Here is an article from the Jets saying that Georgia Tech is preparing their WR's very well for the NFL (including Stephen Hill):

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2012/09/jets_rookie_receiver_stephen_h.html

The title of the article is:
Jets rookie receiver Stephen Hill has been well-schooled

They ate those words..
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...near-the-end-of-their-rope-with-stephen-hill/

http://www.rantsports.com/nfl/2014/04/22/stephen-hill-is-in-make-or-break-year-with-new-york-jets/
 

thwgjacket

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Here is one about him struggling to learn
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...gled-with-whole-football-concept-last-season/

Here is another about him not knowing how to run routes and being used as a decoy for a variety of reasons
http://turnonthejets.com/2013/11/new-york-jets-passing-breakdown-week-9/

Here it talks about his mental mistakes and needing to learn the playbook more
http://thejetsblog.com/player-profile/2013-roster-countdown-84-stephen-hill/

Can he learn the playbook i am sure. Has he? nope. He is used as a clearout guy who still struggles with the route tree and mental side of the game.
Ok so if you think he can learn the playbook (I do too) do you think that's on Stephen Hill more than CPJ? It hasn't hurt DT and I remember a big knock on Stephen Hill while at tech was work ethic from a mental standpoint.
 

vamosjackets

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Techster

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Here is an article from the Jets saying that Georgia Tech is preparing their WR's very well for the NFL (including Stephen Hill):

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2012/09/jets_rookie_receiver_stephen_h.html

The title of the article is:
Jets rookie receiver Stephen Hill has been well-schooled

Our WRs often get high marks from NFL people for being tough and great blockers. That's a very important and overlooked aspect of being an NFL WR. It's a pretty good reason why Kevin Cone made the Falcons.

However, I'm not seeing in that article where a Jet executive, coach, or player said Hill was "well schooled" because of our offense. That was simply a nice "get to know Hill and his background" article for a high draft pick and the Jet's fan base. I wouldn't read too much into the headline when two high profile WRs (DT and Hill) are quoted about our offense in other places.
 

Boomergump

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Wow, did this thread blow up. Thanks Cheese!

A couple of thoughts to throw in there:

1. GT's current pass offense will only be as successful as her run offense. Two deep zone only happens when D's don't respect the option OR down and distance dictate it. We run first. It is no secret. The pass is our "change up" so to speak. It is true that we struggle to pass WHEN WE HAVE TO. That is a natural byproduct. Pretty much every offense has a "go to" aspect about it and other ways to keep defenses "off balance". We have been very good, in terms of pass efficiency, but those numbers were achieved because we were good at running. We sucked at the option portion last year and you saw what it did to passing.

2. Pass protection, or the improvement thereof, is very important to us, but, IMHO, it pales in comparison to the importance of our running efficiency, in terms of net effect to the passing game. If we can run and execute the option, the passing game will be good. Count on it.

3. Comparing CPJ's development of WR's to Fridge's is a stretch. The offenses are too different. One area I feel sure NFL teams respect about about our WR development is blocking. Don't laugh. The league puts a huge emphasis on that and it is considered very important. Route trees? Not as much, but not as bad as some think.

4. I am optimistic that JT (the original subject of the thread, believe it or not) will turn out to be a pretty effective passer in our scheme. There are a couple reasons. First, his ability to keep plays alive with his feet, regardless of protection, and second, he apparently sees the field well, keeping his eyes down range while moving. His arm strength is a lot closer to that of VL than most would give him credit for, he throws comfortably on the run, and he has a little bit of touch. He is no slouch. Nobody who runs an NFL scheme would be interested in JT, but he is pretty good, in the passing component, for what we do. He still has to prove it, but I know what I have seen with my own eyes on film. I am way more worried about the reckless nature of his ball carrying and pitch decisions than his throwing prowess, fwiw.

5. The key for us in 2014 on offense, is more about how consistent we are on down one and down two, than how great we are at passing and imposing our will through the air. If we can't force defenses to cheat, in order to offset the man advantage created in the option, then we may as well hang it up.
 

LibertyTurns

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DT is on record saying he didn't learn how to run routes until after Peyton arrived. Most teams don't have a QB of Peyton's calibre or a WR coach that really knows how to coach.

SH was inexperienced as a route runner when drafted. He went to a team that sucks. The coaches suck, the QBs suck, everybody on the Jets suck. Sucks for him. He's making a $1m bucks or more. Surely he could afford to hire an expert to train him, have the dedication to study and learn his play book so he could maximize his earning potential in his profession.

Time to stop making excuses for lazy GT professional athletes whether it be for lack of study, effort or lack of self-control passing on the donuts. If you want to be good, you put in the time and effort like I do at my job. I've never blamed Ma Tech or anyone else for anything that's my responsibility.
 
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