Exciting times just around the corner!

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JT is gonna be the real deal folks. I know most of you are extremely gun shy to get on board with our new signal caller after the Vad fiasco, but JT is much better suited to our O than Vad ever was. I know what this sounds like, but I liked the Justin signing way more than I liked the Vad signing and that says a lot because I really liked the Vad signing.

When I go back and look at both Vad and Justin in high school, I get two distinctly different impressions. Vad gave me hope for what our offense could turn into, while Justin gives me hope for taking our offense as it is to a whole new level. Justin is a runner first, thrower second, Vad... the opposite. What is our offense....? You got it, run first.

The weird thing is I really like Byerly, too. (mini Joshua?)

Once JT gets a full grasp of the offense and becomes the instinctual player he was in high school, we'll see him making plays like he did back then. And I'm talking making defenders look silly. The complexities of the offense are preventing that right now, but it won't be long.

Instinctive? :) Unless Justin can throw the ball downfield efficiently and effectively enough to take some pressure off of our rushing game, I don't think we will be nearly as exciting as you foresee. I hope you are right.
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
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13,618
Vad was a terrible passer in college. What the hell happened? As far as flicking his wrist and not stepping into his throws, that's the very last thing we needed him doing as the only time he was accurate was when he stepped into his throws. I'm really stretching my brain to think of one aspect of his game that we're gonna miss, it's very hard. Deep passing, nope, JT's is just as strong. Decision making, nope. Reading defenses, nope. Pitching, nope. Keeping, nope. Attacking the pitch key, nope. Leadership under pressure, nope. Command of the offense, nope. What's left??? I will miss his off the field character, though. He's a really good guy.

Btw, my original post was more to the point of JT better fitting what we used to do. That's what we had success with and that's what we're getting back to. I, for one, am damn glad about it.

So you're saying JT is better than Vad at all of that already based on the limited number of snaps we've seen with JT? I hope so. We'll see in a few months.
 

ATL1

Helluva Engineer
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7,377
Well, another way to look at how our system affects the passing game with a basketball analogy is that it gives the QB a free throw instead of a highly contested shot. Our WR's are often WAYYYYY more open than a WR in other systems. Plus the QB usually won't have to read coverages to the degree that other QB's do because it's almost always going to be man to man. All they have to do is give our guy a chance and the offensive guy has the advantage.

That assumes that the WR has the ability to beat his man. WR's need to get into rhythm too. Both need timing. I agree with 33 after watching this offense for 6 years now, the passing game is "cute" to CPJ it's all about the ability to run. The better the qb, aback, bback are at being runners the better the efficiency of the offense.
 

vamosjackets

GT Athlete
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Friedgen's WRs weren't as physically gifted as BeyBey/Smelter/Hill and CJ...but they put up some prolific numbers.
I agree. We had a great run of WR's with O'leary/Fridge. With Johnson and his system, we've had guys who proved to be even more successful than the ones from Fridge's group.
 

ATL1

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I agree. We had a great run of WR's with O'leary/Fridge. With Johnson and his system, we've had guys who proved to be even more successful than the ones from Fridge's group.

I wouldn't say Smelter or Hill have been/were more successful in college as O'Leary's troop of Wideouts.
 

thwgjacket

Guest
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The funny thing is that our fans are so negative about the offense, and the passing game, but we continue to get highly rated QB recruits. If Ratliffe stays committed, and it really looks like he will, then that is three 4-star recruits in 4 years. 2 of which are ESPN 300 guys.

The problem is that both Vad Lee and Josh Nesbitt had very strong arms but zero accuracy. I remember the first play of the game against Ole Miss in the bowl and CPJ calls a pass play and he promptly throws it 20 yards over the WR's head. This idea that Nesbitt and Lee would have been prolific passers in another offense is getting old. They clearly have/had little accuracy.
 

70Jacket

Georgia Tech Fan
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Friedgen's WRs weren't as physically gifted as BeyBey/Smelter/Hill and CJ...but they put up some prolific numbers.

I would not put Hill in the prolific group; Smelter had a good first season but needs to back it and show improvement to make the prolific group; BeyBey was inherited-definitely prolific; Calvin was long gone before cpj arrived- CJ Xprolific.
 

turfjacket

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
281
I like JT a lot. Whats not to like about an athlete of his caliber. However, I will wait until about 5 or 6 games into the season before I can truly say if I think he or TB is the right QB for us.

I just haven't seen enough yet from either of them.
I totally agree. I just don't get all the hype about a player that hasn't taken a significant snap yet. I hope he ends up being our best QB of all time, but I can't give him that crown until he earns it.
 

thwgjacket

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I wouldn't say Smelter or Hill have been/were more successful in college as O'Leary's troop of Wideouts.
Hard to quantify because we don't throw the ball as much. It would be like saying CPJ has had more successful RB's than any other coach.
 

thwgjacket

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I would not put Hill in the prolific group; Smelter had a good first season but needs to back it and show improvement to make the prolific group; BeyBey was inherited-definitely prolific; Calvin was long gone before cpj arrived- CJ Xprolific.
You said "developed" earlier, not recruited. It's not like Thomas was just awesome when he came in and the coaching staff didn't have to do anything. I would say a big reason for his success in college was going against man coverage 95% of the time.
 

vamosjackets

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That assumes that the WR has the ability to beat his man. WR's need to get into rhythm too. Both need timing. I agree with 33 after watching this offense for 6 years now, the passing game is "cute" to CPJ it's all about the ability to run. The better the qb, aback, bback are at being runners the better the efficiency of the offense.
I'm saying our offense often gives our WR's a much better chance at "beating their man" than other systems precisely because our offense IS "all about the ability to run". The DB's have no choice than to continually be focusing on their run support duties. Because our offense is run first, the DB's have to also be run first. So, when we pass we've got a huge advantage. That's why we've been able to have one of the top passing efficiency offenses in the nation with the QB's we've had. Our QB's under CPJ are probably on the lower end of raw throwing ability of all BCS QB's in the nation, I don't think anybody would question that. (Of course, I think we could've probably said the same for our QB's under many other regimes as well). And yet, we still have good efficiency stats. That's what our offense is about, that's what it does for us. Of course, it's also about using the passing game at the right time, and that is going to totally depend on our effectiveness in our running game. Which is why most of us are very excited about our offense refocusing on what it does best. When that stuff works, we're a scary team to defend. Ask any defensive coach.
 

GTRX7

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Cheese you guys need to see that our scheme ruins QBs ability to pass. Alot of reasons. First they have lose confidence quickly in our pass protection schemes. They get happy feet. Second they run the option 80% of the time, getting punched in the shoulders, then are asked to complete a 35 yard bomb. This is the equivalent to riding the pine all game then being asked to him a 3 pointer with no warmup in a game. We get into NO PASSING RHYTHM as a team. We have very little intermediate passing game to establish a rhythm. We use odd dropbacks on occasion totally different than what our QBs do all their career until tech. Often the QB first pass is a bomb to catch the D. Low percentage.

We employ no big body over the middle of the field called a TE. Any good passing QB will tell you this is invaluable in a scheme.

We never run more than 2 true WR any given play. Think about that.

We have a very basic trips/twins AB WR route combo package. Very simple. We do very little combo/rub route style plays, most are 9 routes with a flats or comeback under it. Its just so simple to defend and gameplan against. The creativity in the route combos is not there. Its 1980s offense.

QB's get hot like shooters....they need rhythm, they need tools, they need blockers, they need to have confidence in the guys and scheme around them to be prolific.

There is nothing about this offense that HELPs a QB. NOTHING. I can't think of a scheme in all of football that is harder on a QB to be successful passing the ball then ours. The list is so long I could keep typing but I won't.

The only thing this scheme helps with for our QB is the element of pure shock. We run so much, that when we pass the D falls asleep so we hope. But of course that also is the reasons for all the stuff above. Then that also assumes our OT can block, which out of a 3 pt stance vs bigtime DE is almost impossible too.

Our best hope in the Paul era is a GREAT RB. A Great QB running the option, and a really strong D. Passing is and always will be a joke under paul at tech and we should stop wondering why after 3 QBs, now 4 we can't pass. Its a system thing...lets get over it and start supporting running the ball more and better.

33, I actually agree with a lot of what you say, but not necessarily your implied conclusion that that means we will never have good passing under CPJ. As others have pointed out, while the system does not lend itself to good completion percentages, it does lend itself to pretty good QB efficiency ratings. In fact, Tevin Washington (who I think we all agree was not a 5 star QB recruit), finished Tech with 3rd in career pass efficiency and with the 2nd best season in the history of GT in 2011 with an efficiency rating of 155.4. In that year, he also completed about 56% of his passes, which is pretty comparable to what the three guys we had before CPJ did (Reggie Ball, Taylor Bennett, and A.J. Suggs). Thomas also finished just 48 yards short of Calvin's single season passing yards record of 1202 in 2009. That he did it with 30 less receptions speaks to the increased efficiency possible in the system.

I agree that our system probably makes it tougher for any given QB to be consistent, but that doesn't mean we can't have one that is really effective. I think your point about our line needing better protection is the most important thing we need to improve.
 

ATL1

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The funny thing is that our fans are so negative about the offense, and the passing game, but we continue to get highly rated QB recruits. If Ratliffe stays committed, and it really looks like he will, then that is three 4-star recruits in 4 years. 2 of which are ESPN 300 guys.

The problem is that both Vad Lee and Josh Nesbitt had very strong arms but zero accuracy. I remember the first play of the game against Ole Miss in the bowl and CPJ calls a pass play and he promptly throws it 20 yards over the WR's head. This idea that Nesbitt and Lee would have been prolific passers in another offense is getting old. They clearly have/had little accuracy.

We'll see what Vad does at James Madison.
But the question is if that is a function of reps, practice, and scheme as opposed to just the ability of the QB. Can a QB be developed into becoming more accurate, I believe so. In this offense however I doubt it.
I like what I saw out of Ratliff as well.
 

Techster

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I would not put Hill in the prolific group; Smelter had a good first season but needs to back it and show improvement to make the prolific group; BeyBey was inherited-definitely prolific; Calvin was long gone before cpj arrived- CJ Xprolific.

I'm just curious why Vamos would make the statment "We've never had a better run of successful WR's under any previous coach/system."

With Kerry Watkins, Dez White, and Kelly Cambell...GT had some pretty good WRs there. All were All-ACC selections and saw time in the NFL. Friedgen had other secondary and tertiary receivers that put up bigger numbers than CPJ's main recievers.

Like I said, GT has had some really good WR, but numbers-wise that statement just doesn't add up.
 

vamosjackets

GT Athlete
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In terms of?
My replies regarding WR's in this thread were in response to a post that said our offense doesn't "develop" WR's. So, I'm saying the fact that we've had WR's become more successful coming out of this offense than any other in our history suggests otherwise.

Here's the original post from where my whole train of thought originated:
the system does not develop receivers for many of the same points, the mental conditioning is on executing blocks first, with the exception of Smelter catching passes has been poor since DT left- run baby run!

Bay Bay put up one of the best seasons by a GT WR ever (I think 2'nd best to CJ's last year) in 2009 in the CPJ system. And, Hill also put up a great season his last year (not sure where it would rank). Smelter has a good chance to continue that. Campbell, Dez, Watkins, Glover, even Smith... Those guys were good and excelled in Fridge's system. But, none had the success that Thomas and Hill have/will have, and perhaps Smelter as well, in the NFL. If we compare their numbers in college, none will have the success in college Bay Bay had. The best will probably be comparable to Hill's last year.

Anyway, again the whole thing was just a response to the "developing WR's" argument.
I think Fridge's group was awesome, and there's a good argument to be made that they were the best group at GT ever. But, the fact that it's even a debate makes my point - that CPJ's offense doesn't develop WR's is wrong.
 

AlabamaBuzz

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Well, I could say a lot of optimistic things, and it could make us all FEEL better, but the truth is, "I don't see it". I hope I see it on the field, and I get to provide a mea culpa about my negativity.

I do believe PJ and TR will do more with what they have than most would do, but it is not enough in my opinion with the talent and depth we currently have on the roster to beat the big boys.

Just as I will be surprised if Johnny Football can stay healthy in the NFL, I am very concerned with JT's ability to take the hits he will have to absorb this season and stay on the field. I agree with everyone that, given a small opening, he can make huge plays for us. I don't believe any of us will be praising the passing game this coming season with JT at the helm, but it might not be any worse than the previous couple of years.
 

daBuzz

Ramblin' Wreck
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965
I'm saying our offense often gives our WR's a much better chance at "beating their man" than other systems precisely because our offense IS "all about the ability to run". The DB's have no choice than to continually be focusing on their run support duties. Because our offense is run first, the DB's have to also be run first. So, when we pass we've got a huge advantage. That's why we've been able to have one of the top passing efficiency offenses in the nation with the QB's we've had. Our QB's under CPJ are probably on the lower end of raw throwing ability of all BCS QB's in the nation, I don't think anybody would question that. (Of course, I think we could've probably said the same for our QB's under many other regimes as well). And yet, we still have good efficiency stats. That's what our offense is about, that's what it does for us. Of course, it's also about using the passing game at the right time, and that is going to totally depend on our effectiveness in our running game. Which is why most of us are very excited about our offense refocusing on what it does best. When that stuff works, we're a scary team to defend. Ask any defensive coach.

Open the link attached here: Link
Fast forward to 31:50 and watch the slow motion replay of that 3rd and 6 pass play....and listen to the commentators as they say "This is not a very good scheme. Having a 225 pound running back trying to block a 270 pound defensive end." There are some other interesting comments there, too but you guys will discount them because of who said them.

But a few things to note on that play:
- Vad takes a 5-step drop on the play. He is hit just after he plants his foot on the 5th step.
- We send 2 receivers into a 2-deep ZONE coverage; not man-to-man. Both safeties roll over to play side and we end up with 4 defenders covering 2 receivers. Even if Vad had time, there would have been no downfield receiver to throw it to.
- This isn't an exception in our blocking schemes. If you want to watch the entire game there, go ahead. You'll see our A- and B- backs try to block defenders (and miss) most of the night. If you also bother to do so, you'll see the same scheme used in many other games.

Edited:
You will also note that many of the better teams we play will play 2, 3, or 4 deep zones against us just as often, if not moreso, than they play man-to-man against us.
 
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