Exciting times just around the corner!

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
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14,024
JT is gonna be the real deal folks. I know most of you are extremely gun shy to get on board with our new signal caller after the Vad fiasco, but JT is much better suited to our O than Vad ever was. I know what this sounds like, but I liked the Justin signing way more than I liked the Vad signing and that says a lot because I really liked the Vad signing.

When I go back and look at both Vad and Justin in high school, I get two distinctly different impressions. Vad gave me hope for what our offense could turn into, while Justin gives me hope for taking our offense as it is to a whole new level. Justin is a runner first, thrower second, Vad... the opposite. What is our offense....? You got it, run first.

The weird thing is I really like Byerly, too. (mini Joshua?)

Once JT gets a full grasp of the offense and becomes the instinctual player he was in high school, we'll see him making plays like he did back then. And I'm talking making defenders look silly. The complexities of the offense are preventing that right now, but it won't be long.
 

danny daniel

Helluva Engineer
Messages
2,473
JT is gonna be the real deal folks. I know most of you are extremely gun shy to get on board with our new signal caller after the Vad fiasco, but JT is much better suited to our O than Vad ever was. I know what this sounds like, but I liked the Justin signing way more than I liked the Vad signing and that says a lot because I really liked the Vad signing.

When I go back and look at both Vad and Justin in high school, I get two distinctly different impressions. Vad gave me hope for what our offense could turn into, while Justin gives me hope for taking our offense as it is to a whole new level. Justin is a runner first, thrower second, Vad... the opposite. What is our offense....? You got it, run first.

The weird thing is I really like Byerly, too. (mini Joshua?)

Once JT gets a full grasp of the offense and becomes the instinctual player he was in high school, we'll see him making plays like he did back then. And I'm talking making defenders look silly. The complexities of the offense are preventing that right now, but it won't be long.

I hope you are right about JT and I know you are right about TB. I believe both have a role to play this season (JT dominant role) and we will be pleasantly surprised with our QB play.
 

daBuzz

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
965
JT looked like a better passer in HS than Vad.

If you think so, that's fine. But watching highlights from Vad's senior season in HS, they won a state championship on his arm and he looked pretty good throwing it.
 

Techster

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Messages
17,657
If you think so, that's fine. But watching highlights from Vad's senior season in HS, they won a state championship on his arm and he looked pretty good throwing it.

For a while there CPJ tried to tell everyone that JT's arm was just as strong as Vad's...anyone that still has their sight could see that clearly was not the case. Not that arm strength makes you a great passer (see Danny Wuerfall), but we're going to lose the threat of a deep pass on any given play if JT doesn't have time to set his feet and put his weight behind throws where as Vad had the ability to flick his wrist and send the ball 40-50 yards down the field.

From JTs bio (senior season):

completed 66 percent of his passes this season for 1,652 yards and 13 touchdowns and rushed for 896 yards and seven TDs

From Vad's bio (senior season):

rushed for 1,300 yards and passed for 3,223 in 2010

Vad was more prolific in the air AND on the ground. That's not saying JT can't be a great passer on this level, but it does show that Vad was a high level and more accomplished passer coming out of HS.

I think JT will do well in this offense if he can stay healthy. I think the whole "fits the offense" thing is overplayed with some on this board. JT will probably do some things better than Vad, but I also think there are some things he won't do as well as Vad. There's going to be a give and take there. Vad did well as a first year starter, and probably would have done even better with more experience. JT will have to work behind an inexperienced and young OL...so he may be at a disadvantage as a first year starter (not that the OL Vad played behind was great either).

The one thing I am excited about JT is that a small crease in the defense can lead to a HUGE gain...it's just a matter of our guys giving him that small crease. If JT can get past the first level, that's where his magic comes in. The hope is that our guys can block well enough to get him to that second level.
 

AE 87

Helluva Engineer
Messages
13,015
If you think so, that's fine. But watching highlights from Vad's senior season in HS, they won a state championship on his arm and he looked pretty good throwing it.

I agree. In my post, I was focused on throwing motion.
 

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
Messages
14,024
For a while there CPJ tried to tell everyone that JT's arm was just as strong as Vad's...anyone that still has their sight could see that clearly was not the case. Not that arm strength makes you a great passer (see Danny Wuerfall), but we're going to lose the threat of a deep pass on any given play if JT doesn't have time to set his feet and put his weight behind throws where as Vad had the ability to flick his wrist and send the ball 40-50 yards down the field.

From JTs bio (senior season):



From Vad's bio (senior season):



Vad was more prolific in the air AND on the ground. That's not saying JT can't be a great passer on this level, but it does show that Vad was a high level and more accomplished passer coming out of HS.

I think JT will do well in this offense if he can stay healthy. I think the whole "fits the offense" thing is overplayed with some on this board. JT will probably do some things better than Vad, but I also think there are some things he won't do as well as Vad. There's going to be a give and take there. Vad did well as a first year starter, and probably would have done even better with more experience. JT will have to work behind an inexperienced and young OL...so he may be at a disadvantage as a first year starter (not that the OL Vad played behind was great either).

The one thing I am excited about JT is that a small crease in the defense can lead to a HUGE gain...it's just a matter of our guys giving him that small crease. If JT can get past the first level, that's where his magic comes in. The hope is that our guys can block well enough to get him to that second level.
Vad was a terrible passer in college. What the hell happened? As far as flicking his wrist and not stepping into his throws, that's the very last thing we needed him doing as the only time he was accurate was when he stepped into his throws. I'm really stretching my brain to think of one aspect of his game that we're gonna miss, it's very hard. Deep passing, nope, JT's is just as strong. Decision making, nope. Reading defenses, nope. Pitching, nope. Keeping, nope. Attacking the pitch key, nope. Leadership under pressure, nope. Command of the offense, nope. What's left??? I will miss his off the field character, though. He's a really good guy.

Btw, my original post was more to the point of JT better fitting what we used to do. That's what we had success with and that's what we're getting back to. I, for one, am damn glad about it.
 

GT Man

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
898
It's so hard to judge a QB. We just have to wait and see if the linemen will block, if the defense respects our run game, if the WRs can catch etc...
JT will do just fine! Just look what Tevin accomplished with half the talent. What we need is STABILITY at this position.
 

Ash

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
766
but we're going to lose the threat of a deep pass on any given play

Honestly, I don't mind that much. Sometimes it seems like we only have two pass routes: 5 yard button hook and a burner flag route. Opening things up closer in might not be a bad thing. Let the receivers get some YAC in that soft single coverage.
 

33jacket

Helluva Engineer
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4,634
Location
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Vad was a terrible passer in college. What the hell happened? As far as flicking his wrist and not stepping into his throws, that's the very last thing we needed him doing as the only time he was accurate was when he stepped into his throws. I'm really stretching my brain to think of one aspect of his game that we're gonna miss, it's very hard. Deep passing, nope, JT's is just as strong. Decision making, nope. Reading defenses, nope. Pitching, nope. Keeping, nope. Attacking the pitch key, nope. Leadership under pressure, nope. Command of the offense, nope. What's left??? I will miss his off the field character, though. He's a really good guy.

Btw, my original post was more to the point of JT better fitting what we used to do. That's what we had success with and that's what we're getting back to. I, for one, am damn glad about it.

Cheese you guys need to see that our scheme ruins QBs ability to pass. Alot of reasons. First they have lose confidence quickly in our pass protection schemes. They get happy feet. Second they run the option 80% of the time, getting punched in the shoulders, then are asked to complete a 35 yard bomb. This is the equivalent to riding the pine all game then being asked to him a 3 pointer with no warmup in a game. We get into NO PASSING RHYTHM as a team. We have very little intermediate passing game to establish a rhythm. We use odd dropbacks on occasion totally different than what our QBs do all their career until tech. Often the QB first pass is a bomb to catch the D. Low percentage.

We employ no big body over the middle of the field called a TE. Any good passing QB will tell you this is invaluable in a scheme.

We never run more than 2 true WR any given play. Think about that.

We have a very basic trips/twins AB WR route combo package. Very simple. We do very little combo/rub route style plays, most are 9 routes with a flats or comeback under it. Its just so simple to defend and gameplan against. The creativity in the route combos is not there. Its 1980s offense.

QB's get hot like shooters....they need rhythm, they need tools, they need blockers, they need to have confidence in the guys and scheme around them to be prolific.

There is nothing about this offense that HELPs a QB. NOTHING. I can't think of a scheme in all of football that is harder on a QB to be successful passing the ball then ours. The list is so long I could keep typing but I won't.

The only thing this scheme helps with for our QB is the element of pure shock. We run so much, that when we pass the D falls asleep so we hope. But of course that also is the reasons for all the stuff above. Then that also assumes our OT can block, which out of a 3 pt stance vs bigtime DE is almost impossible too.

Our best hope in the Paul era is a GREAT RB. A Great QB running the option, and a really strong D. Passing is and always will be a joke under paul at tech and we should stop wondering why after 3 QBs, now 4 we can't pass. Its a system thing...lets get over it and start supporting running the ball more and better.
 
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IronJacket7

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Messages
2,544
I like JT a lot. Whats not to like about an athlete of his caliber. However, I will wait until about 5 or 6 games into the season before I can truly say if I think he or TB is the right QB for us.

I just haven't seen enough yet from either of them.
 

SidewalkJacket

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,655
There is nothing about this offense that HELPs a QB. NOTHING. I can't think of a scheme in all of football that is harder on a QB to be successful passing the ball then ours. The list is so long I could keep typing but I won't.

It all depends on your perspective. The offense is definitely NOT built for a guy to get into a passing rhythm and complete 17-20. It is built to ensure that we can ALWAYS rush for a 1st down. If we can do this, then our passing success is based on completing a few BIG passes a game. 6-14 is a terrible completion %, and definitely doesn't indicate the "rhythm" you're referring to, but if it nets us 130 yards and a TD, it could be considered a success (as long as we're running it with success).

I've said it before, but I don't care if we run, pass, or roll the ball down the field, as long as we are scoring and winning. Some folks are never going to like our offense because, at the end of the day, they want to see the ball in the air.

I like JT a lot. Whats not to like about an athlete of his caliber. However, I will wait until about 5 or 6 games into the season before I can truly say if I think he or TB is the right QB for us.

I just haven't seen enough yet from either of them.

That's EXACTLY how I feel going into this season. I am optimistic, but cautiously optimistic. So glad we have TB behind JT.
 

70Jacket

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
79
Cheese you guys need to see that our scheme ruins QBs ability to pass. Alot of reasons. First they have lose confidence quickly in our pass protection schemes. They get happy feet. Second they run the option 80% of the time, getting punched in the shoulders, then are asked to complete a 35 yard bomb. This is the equivalent to riding the pine all game then being asked to him a 3 pointer with no warmup in a game. We get into NO PASSING RHYTHM as a team. We have very little intermediate passing game to establish a rhythm. We use odd dropbacks on occasion totally different than what our QBs do all their career until tech. Often the QB first pass is a bomb to catch the D. Low percentage.

We employ no big body over the middle of the field called a TE. Any good passing QB will tell you this is invaluable in a scheme.

We never run more than 2 true WR any given play. Think about that.

We have a very basic trips/twins AB WR route combo package. Very simple. We do very little combo/rub route style plays, most are 9 routes with a flats or comeback under it. Its just so simple to defend and gameplan against. The creativity in the route combos is not there. Its 1980s offense.

QB's get hot like shooters....they need rhythm, they need tools, they need blockers, they need to have confidence in the guys and scheme around them to be prolific.

There is nothing about this offense that HELPs a QB. NOTHING. I can't think of a scheme in all of football that is harder on a QB to be successful passing the ball then ours. The list is so long I could keep typing but I won't.

The only thing this scheme helps with for our QB is the element of pure shock. We run so much, that when we pass the D falls asleep so we hope. But of course that also is the reasons for all the stuff above. Then that also assumes our OT can block, which out of a 3 pt stance vs bigtime DE is almost impossible too.

Our best hope in the Paul era is a GREAT RB. A Great QB running the option, and a really strong D. Passing is and always will be a joke under paul at tech and we should stop wondering why after 3 QBs, now 4 we can't pass. Its a system thing...lets get over it and start supporting running the ball more and better.

All good points; I would add the system does not develop receivers for many of the same points, the mental conditioning is on executing blocks first, with the exception of Smelter catching passes has been poor since DT left- run baby run!
 

dressedcheeseside

Helluva Engineer
Messages
14,024
Cheese you guys need to see that our scheme ruins QBs ability to pass. Alot of reasons. First they have lose confidence quickly in our pass protection schemes. They get happy feet. Second they run the option 80% of the time, getting punched in the shoulders, then are asked to complete a 35 yard bomb. This is the equivalent to riding the pine all game then being asked to him a 3 pointer with no warmup in a game. We get into NO PASSING RHYTHM as a team. We have very little intermediate passing game to establish a rhythm. We use odd dropbacks on occasion totally different than what our QBs do all their career until tech. Often the QB first pass is a bomb to catch the D. Low percentage.

We employ no big body over the middle of the field called a TE. Any good passing QB will tell you this is invaluable in a scheme.

We never run more than 2 true WR any given play. Think about that.

We have a very basic trips/twins AB WR route combo package. Very simple. We do very little combo/rub route style plays, most are 9 routes with a flats or comeback under it. Its just so simple to defend and gameplan against. The creativity in the route combos is not there. Its 1980s offense.

QB's get hot like shooters....they need rhythm, they need tools, they need blockers, they need to have confidence in the guys and scheme around them to be prolific.

There is nothing about this offense that HELPs a QB. NOTHING. I can't think of a scheme in all of football that is harder on a QB to be successful passing the ball then ours. The list is so long I could keep typing but I won't.

The only thing this scheme helps with for our QB is the element of pure shock. We run so much, that when we pass the D falls asleep so we hope. But of course that also is the reasons for all the stuff above. Then that also assumes our OT can block, which out of a 3 pt stance vs bigtime DE is almost impossible too.

Our best hope in the Paul era is a GREAT RB. A Great QB running the option, and a really strong D. Passing is and always will be a joke under paul at tech and we should stop wondering why after 3 QBs, now 4 we can't pass. Its a system thing...lets get over it and start supporting running the ball more and better.
33, I can buy into all of what you just said. However, you did omit one important advantage our scheme affords our passers....

Man Coverage.

Not just on the outside, but on the seam routes with our Abacks. Now, this is dependent on our running game sucking the safeties in, so we gotta be good on the ground. It also requires that we pass with play action on running downs and not only on 3rd and long. I think JT gives us a better chance to be good on the ground and do just that.

My intent with the OP was to point out that "exciting" times are just ahead. I didn't really want to spark a debate about the effectiveness of our passing attack. Notice that I did not say we were necessarily going to win a bunch of games. Justin's style of play is exciting! Not just his athletic prowess, which is amazing, but the way he always attacks a defense... and the way he carries the damn ball. For better or worse.... he's an exciting player. He'll be fun to watch and maddening at times, too, I'm sure.

I also think he'll attract so much attn from the defenses we play that it will naturally open up things for our other guys. We already know Smelter can go up and get the damn ball in a crowd. We know Laskey's gonna get us 2 to 5 every carry with an occasional 15+. He's actually a little faster than I originally thought. I'm also looking forward to what Leggitt brings to the table. We also have more beef on the OL. What I imagine is finally being able to establish the dive and inside keepers in order to set up the pitches and outside keepers and then bam, the deep ball. You know, run the offense how it was originally designed and conceived!
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
17,657
I like JT a lot. Whats not to like about an athlete of his caliber. However, I will wait until about 5 or 6 games into the season before I can truly say if I think he or TB is the right QB for us.

I just haven't seen enough yet from either of them.

This.

JT's body of work is simply too small to conclusively say "he's a better fit for the offense" or that our offense will be better in his hands. He's flashed great potential on a few plays that have fans salivating to see what he can do full time....BUT you know who else had the fans doing the same thing in limited number of snaps in 2012? Vad.

We're heading into CPJ's 7th year (boy time flies!)...and I've seen this kind of talk about players potential to do this or that one too many times. People forget that there are other really good coaches and other really good players in this league (ACC was #2 in NFL players drafted BTW) that are going to try to stop JT (or TB) from making those plays. The more JT plays, the more DCs have film to scheme against him and CPJ...as we saw with Vad.

In all honesty, I'm more worried about our OL than I am about our QB. JT or TB will be fine...QB has never really been a problem...even in 2013. OL play is pivotal for any offense, and that's what worries me about our 2014 edition. We're young and inexperienced. Not a good combo.
 

vamosjackets

GT Athlete
Featured Member
Messages
2,147
Cheese you guys need to see that our scheme ruins QBs ability to pass. Alot of reasons. First they have lose confidence quickly in our pass protection schemes. They get happy feet. Second they run the option 80% of the time, getting punched in the shoulders, then are asked to complete a 35 yard bomb. This is the equivalent to riding the pine all game then being asked to him a 3 pointer with no warmup in a game. We get into NO PASSING RHYTHM as a team. We have very little intermediate passing game to establish a rhythm. We use odd dropbacks on occasion totally different than what our QBs do all their career until tech. Often the QB first pass is a bomb to catch the D. Low percentage.

We employ no big body over the middle of the field called a TE. Any good passing QB will tell you this is invaluable in a scheme.

We never run more than 2 true WR any given play. Think about that.

We have a very basic trips/twins AB WR route combo package. Very simple. We do very little combo/rub route style plays, most are 9 routes with a flats or comeback under it. Its just so simple to defend and gameplan against. The creativity in the route combos is not there. Its 1980s offense.

QB's get hot like shooters....they need rhythm, they need tools, they need blockers, they need to have confidence in the guys and scheme around them to be prolific.

There is nothing about this offense that HELPs a QB. NOTHING. I can't think of a scheme in all of football that is harder on a QB to be successful passing the ball then ours. The list is so long I could keep typing but I won't.

The only thing this scheme helps with for our QB is the element of pure shock. We run so much, that when we pass the D falls asleep so we hope. But of course that also is the reasons for all the stuff above. Then that also assumes our OT can block, which out of a 3 pt stance vs bigtime DE is almost impossible too.

Our best hope in the Paul era is a GREAT RB. A Great QB running the option, and a really strong D. Passing is and always will be a joke under paul at tech and we should stop wondering why after 3 QBs, now 4 we can't pass. Its a system thing...lets get over it and start supporting running the ball more and better.
Well, another way to look at how our system affects the passing game with a basketball analogy is that it gives the QB a free throw instead of a highly contested shot. Our WR's are often WAYYYYY more open than a WR in other systems. Plus the QB usually won't have to read coverages to the degree that other QB's do because it's almost always going to be man to man. All they have to do is give our guy a chance and the offensive guy has the advantage.
 

ibeattetris

Helluva Engineer
Messages
3,537
There is nothing about this offense that HELPs a QB. NOTHING. I can't think of a scheme in all of football that is harder on a QB to be successful passing the ball then ours.

I would think that consistently having 1 on 1 coverage (and a lot of time A backs running free) would be an aspect of our offense that helps a QB. Several passes a game come down to the QB finding the guy running free rather than putting the ball in a tight window. How much rhythm do you need to hit a guy that's wide open?
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
17,657
Honestly, I don't mind that much. Sometimes it seems like we only have two pass routes: 5 yard button hook and a burner flag route. Opening things up closer in might not be a bad thing. Let the receivers get some YAC in that soft single coverage.

Our routes are dependent on coverage...our passing concepts are derived from Run-N-Shoot staples (Choice, Go, Switch, etc) and we've also used some Air Raid concepts (Mesh...the go ahead play against VT in 2012, 4 Verts). All of those concepts take a lot of time (practice reps) to get the QB and WR on the same page in terms of reading what the defense is giving us.

Our running game is an advantage for our passing game in terms of how teams have to defend us. If you look at our passing tape, there is ALWAYS a man open, a lot of times multiple receivers open. It's just a matter of our OL giving our QB time, and our QB finding the open guy.

I'm not as versed as some others on here in regards to what we've been doing lately, but it does seem like the staff has implemented some shorter combo routes.
 

vamosjackets

GT Athlete
Featured Member
Messages
2,147
All good points; I would add the system does not develop receivers for many of the same points, the mental conditioning is on executing blocks first, with the exception of Smelter catching passes has been poor since DT left- run baby run!
We've never had a better run of successful WR's under any previous coach/system.
 
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