CPJ sez...

Northeast Stinger

Northeast Stinger

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Ash said:
I think it's recruiting bigger linemen. Somewhere along the line the coaching staff looked at the results smaller, quicker linemen we getting against teams like Clemson and UGA and drew a conclusion. We can do both now, and that more than anything has made a difference in our offensive production IMO.
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Disagree.
Coaches have always tried to get the best linemen available. Sometimes they had to settle for smaller and faster rather than bigger and more sluggish. But the average weights for the offensive line recruits have not been substantially different. The average weight for our offensive line recruits in the 2014 were actually the smallest sense CPJ has been at Tech.
 
dressedcheeseside

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Ash said:
I think it's recruiting bigger linemen. Somewhere along the line the coaching staff looked at the results smaller, quicker linemen we getting against teams like Clemson and UGA and drew a conclusion. We can do both now, and that more than anything has made a difference in our offensive production IMO.
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"Fast is good. Big and fast is better."
 
DrJacket

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On being picked to win the Coastal-- "I hope they finally got it right for once....You know by now we didn't pay a whole lot of attention to that stuff last year when we were picked to finish fifth. And, we're not gonna pay a whole lot of attention to where we've been picked this year."

On the Atl sports media-- "They're always tearing somebody up. This year, the Falcons took our place. You just gotta not be that one."

Asked if the Coastal Division was "gaining" on the Atlantic--"Well, I don't believe the Coastal has to GAIN on the Atlantic..."
 
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“What was it coach (George) O’Leary said? You can’t be Harvard Monday through Friday and Alabama on Saturday. Now, sometimes you can. But to suggest you can do it consistently probably isn’t going to happen.”
 

33jacket

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Northeast Stinger said:
I know one thing. Our offensive line is much better now than it was when CPJ was relying more on Gailey recruits.
As for bigger, not necessarily, but definitely better. Perhaps Tech linemen are faster now and have more muscle. They definitely are more skilled.

Looking at listed weights for rosters here are the averages:

2008 slightly over 290 on offensive line
2009 slightly over 287 on offensive line
2014 289.8 on offensive line (remove Shamire DeVine and the average drops to 277)
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08 and 09 were not primarily pauls guys....where we saw the issues arise in the OL was in those middle years. In 2008 paul had an OL comprised of a 2 NFL players in cord howard and Garnder who was at or over 300 plus a bunch of zone guys at or over 300.

Instead of doing the average size for all the OL on the roster, why not just look at the starting 5? Those are who play and matter. A walkon OL that weighs 260 skews the data and I don't see how that matters much. Really what we are talking about is who the prime talent is and makes the field.

Listed weights are also a trap but I realize its all one can go on. Jay Finch was listed at 280 or 285 and I know for a fact scaled at 265 mid season his senior year. Our starting center was Sean bedford...who may lurk here but I am not sure every played much over 280....probably when dropping weight mid season was more like 270 or 275.

But I judge alot on the eye check. IMO Our OL are taller, bigger, and better frames than they were in 2010 and 2011/12. Its obvious to me when you look body to body. Sean Bedford and Jay finch are a lot smaller than Burden. ALOT. That Center is responsible for that A gap push.... between 20-35 lbs lighter and shorter. Mason and Uzzi is a wash. Joe @ 6-3 313 is bigger than whoever was there on the right side. Braun is taller, wider and more put together than Jackson who struggled to break 280 until his senior year and he was right at 280 despite his list at 290. Trey Braun is a legit 295 maybe 300. Will Jackson was a legit 275 or 280 most his playing career. Chamberlain is also a legit 295...these guys are 6-5 range not 6-2/3 like they were. We had a beno at 6-1 and 290 there on the left side.

Every one of our OL today are at the 300 mark legit. In the past 3 of 5 were at the 280 mark. All our OL are taller now. We are in the 6-4 range plus now. In the past, the guys are 6-1, 6-2, 6-3. Our tallest OL in 2012 was 6-3.

Our starting OL right now goes 295, 295, 302, 360, 313. That average is 313. There isn't one class close to that under paul. In 2014 the average starter was right at/over 300 lbs. In 2012 the starting OL was 285 range. The size difference is there...and its true...its not just a insignificant wash of data. We are 15+lbs bigger across the board per guy today.

I just disagree with the notion our OL is not much bigger. It is and you can see it IMO. Its a bunch better too. That OL from 2012 4 of the 5 would not start on this team. The team now also does not cut on the OL as much as they did in 2011 and 2012 too. There is a fundamental shift in the body and style of the OL play the last 2 years.
 

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33jacket said:
I just disagree with the notion our OL is not much bigger. It is and you can see it IMO. Its a bunch better too. That OL from 2012 4 of the 5 would not start on this team. The team now also does not cut on the OL as much as they did in 2011 and 2012 too. There is a fundamental shift in the body and style of the OL play the last 2 years.
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Good work on the listed weights, and from eyes-on-TV only they look bigger now, though I assume the Gailey years were also packed with players listed way over their actual weight. We might be surprised if every SEC and ACC team somehow was required to list the actual weigh-in weights. That being said, and again only from eyes-on-TV, it was painfully obvious to me in the first two bowl games of Johnson's tenure, against Iowa and LSU, we were clearly and unmistakably smaller, across the board. And particularly against LSU, way less athletic across the board. Using only those matchups, I don't think there is any doubt Johnson and his recruiting staff have found and sign bigger and faster O lineman and it shows in the rushing yards ... Thomas & Co. aren't doing it in a vacuum. Now, about that D line ...
 

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Skeptic said:
Good work on the listed weights, and from eyes-on-TV only they look bigger now, though I assume the Gailey years were also packed with players listed way over their actual weight. We might be surprised if every SEC and ACC team somehow was required to list the actual weigh-in weights. That being said, and again only from eyes-on-TV, it was painfully obvious to me in the first two bowl games of Johnson's tenure, against Iowa and LSU, we were clearly and unmistakably smaller, across the board. And particularly against LSU, way less athletic across the board. Using only those matchups, I don't think there is any doubt Johnson and his recruiting staff have found and sign bigger and faster O lineman and it shows in the rushing yards ... Thomas & Co. aren't doing it in a vacuum. Now, about that D line ...
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well. The thing is Cord Howard was truly about 300...in 2008 as proven by NFL weights. Gardner was truly at 300 also shown by NFL measurements. In 2008 our center, was at 300. The issue in 2008 was 1 of our tackles. One was a converted TE/DE. The other gaurd was not that good. In 2008 I still don't view size as any issue. I view player fit to the system, newness of a system, bad fit at tackle, and 3 of the 5 OL starters...lets face it...were not that good.

In 2010, 2011, 2012, I do view size, and the line getting a bit smaller as one of the issues. In fact, if you recall...many of us on the boards in 2011 and 2012 were complaining that the OL was worse then than it was in 08 and 09. We all thought that Paul now has his guys...the OL will be fine...and it was not. We perceived that it took a step back from 2008 and 2009. So I think we need to be careful here with revisionist history.

That 2009 team didn't do great vs Iowa. But pushed around some damn, and I mean DAMN good DL's; in Clemson twice, VT, FSU. For me I have no issues with the 09 OL. 2008 just was new and some not great fits.

Anyway we can debate this. But for me the lines today are alot bigger than they EVER have been since paul has been here, and more talented for his system too. Call it what you want, timing, recruiting, a little of both..but thats my thought.
 
Northeast Stinger

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33jacket said:
I just disagree with the notion our OL is not much bigger. It is and you can see it IMO. Its a bunch better too. That OL from 2012 4 of the 5 would not start on this team. The team now also does not cut on the OL as much as they did in 2011 and 2012 too. There is a fundamental shift in the body and style of the OL play the last 2 years.
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On some points we will have to agree to disagree.
I took averages of players on rosters rather than taking starting five averages for a reason, not just to prove a point. The reason for this is that when one recruits players one does not automatically know which ones are going to end up being starters. Players like Finch and Sean Bedford are examples of smaller players who beat out larger players. Thus looking at the total roster, which may contain larger players than the starters, indicates that no deliberate attempt was made to recruit smaller players. I still contend that CPJ has been entirely clear about what he is looking for in an offensive linemen and size is secondary to his primary requirement of being athletic.

A second mitigating factor is this. Most players we recruit for the offensive line (even this last class) do not come out of high school having the size you want to be a starter. You pick them for athletic ability and for a frame that you hope they can grow into. Sometimes a player does not fill out like you would like or they have another problem which is inability to keep weight on during the season. I could be wrong but my guess is these things are hard to predict. Devine seems to be the exception to this rule which is a player who has trouble keeping weight off. I am convinced CPJ went after him because he was convinced he could be molded into the right size. So far that has not happened, proving that size alone is not the most important thing to CPJ.

The original argument was that CPJ was going after much bigger linemen in recruiting. Or that he was purposefully going after smaller linemen. I still see no evidence of that if taken as a running average. One can also check this out simply by going back and looking at the size of offensive linemen in each recruiting class using their high school measurements. And this squares with everything I have ever heard CPJ say.

Now if the argument is about the line improving and being much better, there is no argument. That is undoubtedly the case. I tend to think we are getting better players now at almost every position but the reasons for that are an entirely different discussion. I just remained unconvinced that this had anything to do with a conscious decision on CPJ's part to change how he was recruiting. He even said something this week about how Tech's current winning ways do not change the fact that he keeps doing the same things he has always done at Tech and it is what it is. But we can agree to disagree on this.
 
dressedcheeseside

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33jacket said:
well. The thing is Cord Howard was truly about 300...in 2008 as proven by NFL weights. Gardner was truly at 300 also shown by NFL measurements. In 2008 our center, was at 300. The issue in 2008 was 1 of our tackles. One was a converted TE/DE. The other gaurd was not that good. In 2008 I still don't view size as any issue. I view player fit to the system, newness of a system, bad fit at tackle, and 3 of the 5 OL starters...lets face it...were not that good.

In 2010, 2011, 2012, I do view size, and the line getting a bit smaller as one of the issues. In fact, if you recall...many of us on the boards in 2011 and 2012 were complaining that the OL was worse then than it was in 08 and 09. We all thought that Paul now has his guys...the OL will be fine...and it was not. We perceived that it took a step back from 2008 and 2009. So I think we need to be careful here with revisionist history.

That 2009 team didn't do great vs Iowa. But pushed around some damn, and I mean DAMN good DL's; in Clemson twice, VT, FSU. For me I have no issues with the 09 OL. 2008 just was new and some not great fits.

Anyway we can debate this. But for me the lines today are alot bigger than they EVER have been since paul has been here, and more talented for his system too. Call it what you want, timing, recruiting, a little of both..but thats my thought.
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The '11 offense was one of the best offenses we've had since CPJ took over and with a "game manager" at qb. The majority of the skill guys were not studs, either. I don't see how that is possible with, as you put it, an "OL was worse then than it was in 08 and 09."

In '11 our offense was ranked #11 in yards per play. In '08 and '09, with all those playmakers and "big" OL's, we were #22 and #25, respectively.

https://www.teamrankings.com/college-football/stat/yards-per-play?date=2010-01-08
 
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Northeast Stinger

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33jacket said:
Anyway we can debate this. But for me the lines today are alot bigger than they EVER have been since paul has been here, and more talented for his system too. Call it what you want, timing, recruiting, a little of both..but thats my thought.
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Do not entirely disagree. My disagreement was with those who act like CPJ has changed the type of player he is going after. Again, on average, most of these guys coming out of high school fall into a fairly narrow range of height and weight. Whether they fill out as expected or whether they can maintain the proper weight during the season, is perhaps a crap shoot. We are much better now in virtually every area of recruiting but that has little to do with overhauling our recruiting philosophy. I think we get the best we can get, given all the parameters of what it takes to attract and get qualified players for Tech. Some years that works out better than other years.
 
dressedcheeseside

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Northeast Stinger said:
Do not entirely disagree. My disagreement was with those who act like CPJ has changed the type of player he is going after. Again, on average, most of these guys coming out of high school fall into a fairly narrow range of height and weight. Whether they fill out as expected or whether they can maintain the proper weight during the season, is perhaps a crap shoot. We are much better now in virtually every area of recruiting but that has little to do with overhauling our recruiting philosophy. I think we get the best we can get, given all the parameters of what it takes to attract and get qualified players for Tech. Some years that works out better than other years.
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I agree in that our target size has not changed over time, what has changed is who we've been able to sign. I think we've wanted big OL's from the get go.
 
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Back to favorite CPJ quote: I don't have the exact wording but something like

"I'm happy to be coming to Georgia Tech as their new head coach" ~ December 2007
 
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