COVID at CWS

[ramblinwreckguru]

The NC St players that didn't get vaccinated get the privilege of knowing that they took away the opportunity for themselves and their teammates and fans to make a run to win the CWS. Granted, it does not guarantee that if they had been vaccinated that they would have beaten Vanderbilt to make it to the championship round. Unfortunately, we will never know.

Are you saying that playing baseball is a good reason to go against your better judgment if you really do not trust a particular medical treatment that hasn't gotten FDA approval? You sound like you're on a really high horse there dictating what adults should do medically in order to make the ncaa happy.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I hope we can continue to discuss Covid as adults. So far so good.

I think our trouble with this topic in the past is partly due to a politicized atmosphere around Covid that is being pushed to some degree by forces beyond our control.

As for the freedom/personal choice/personal responsibility/sacrifice for the greater good/community responsibility/team effort dialectic, I think if this were around any other topic we would not have quite as “sticky” a conversation.

Back in the day (I am dating myself) coaches used to tell us not to have sex or masturbate so many days before a big game. The belief was that this drained your strength and stamina. Then along came Paul Hornung who would break training rules, stay out carousing all night and show up hungover for the big game only to be the game’s MVP.

Hornung got away with this for at least three reasons: 1. He was an amazingly physical and gifted athlete who could get away with pre-game debauchery. 2. He never got caught breaking the rules by his coaches. 3. Later science undermined the notion of strict sexual abstinence for athletes.

Today a coach may impose curfews or similar rules on an athlete for the good of the team. A player may violate those rules and we can have a variety of responses:
1. If the player was out all night and was not able to give his best on game day and the team lost as a result, we may criticize the player for not being a team player. 2. If no harm was done on game day but the player was later dismissed from the team for violating team rules, we might say it was a dumb rule. 3. We may say, regardless of whether the rule was dumb or fair, that the player was selfish to let his behavior jeopardize the entire team. 4. We may celebrate his free spirit, as well as his determination to not be oppressed by an unjust system.

My point is that if you take COVID out of the equation and have a conversation about any other type of conflict between individual desires and team requirements, we can have a variety of opinions but we will see these differences as understandable. Inject Covid, and because of prior politicization, suddenly these differences can drift into personal attack, conspiracy, idiotic non-scientific beliefs, partisanship, failure of character and in-American activity.

 

[ramblinwreckguru]

My problem is when people try to demonize college baseball players for choosing what is best for them regarding an experimental vaccine. I don't see anyone demonizing the vaccinated players like I do those who choose not to get the vaccine at this time. I think a lot of posters here are doing it without even realizing in their passive agressive style. Taking care of one's body is much more important that doing something against your best interests just to be a team player.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

My problem is when people try to demonize college baseball players for choosing what is best for them regarding an experimental vaccine. I don't see anyone demonizing the vaccinated players like I do those who choose not to get the vaccine at this time. I think a lot of posters here are doing it without even realizing in their passive agressive style. Taking care of one's body is much more important that doing something against your best interests just to be a team player.

Taking care of your body is precisely why health professionals recommend getting the vaccine.

 

[orientalnc]

Are you saying that playing baseball is a good reason to go against your better judgment if you really do not trust a particular medical treatment that hasn't gotten FDA approval? You sound like you're on a really high horse there dictating what adults should do medically in order to make the ncaa happy.

At 16-3/4 hands, would Secretariat be considered a high horse?

 

[Deleted member 2897]

According to the Jerusalem Post one third of the new cases in Israel are in children 12-15 years of age. They had never vaccinated that group. That article was a week old, so take that for what it is.

In a highly vaccinated country, that’s exactly what you would expect. They’re basically the only ones left. A lot of Europe used the AstraZeneca vaccine, which is only about 60% effective. So they have much lower protection than shots like Pfizer which runs 96%.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

I hope we can continue to discuss Covid as adults. So far so good.

I think our trouble with this topic in the past is partly due to a politicized atmosphere around Covid that is being pushed to some degree by forces beyond our control.

As for the freedom/personal choice/personal responsibility/sacrifice for the greater good/community responsibility/team effort dialectic, I think if this were around any other topic we would not have quite as “sticky” a conversation.

Back in the day (I am dating myself) coaches used to tell us not to have sex or masturbate so many days before a big game. The belief was that this drained your strength and stamina. Then along came Paul Hornung who would break training rules, stay out carousing all night and show up hungover for the big game only to be the game’s MVP.

Hornung got away with this for at least three reasons: 1. He was an amazingly physical and gifted athlete who could get away with pre-game debauchery. 2. He never got caught breaking the rules by his coaches. 3. Later science undermined the notion of strict sexual abstinence for athletes.

Today a coach may impose curfews or similar rules on an athlete for the good of the team. A player may violate those rules and we can have a variety of responses:
1. If the player was out all night and was not able to give his best on game day and the team lost as a result, we may criticize the player for not being a team player. 2. If no harm was done on game day but the player was later dismissed from the team for violating team rules, we might say it was a dumb rule. 3. We may say, regardless of whether the rule was dumb or fair, that the player was selfish to let his behavior jeopardize the entire team. 4. We may celebrate his free spirit, as well as his determination to not be oppressed by an unjust system.

My point is that if you take COVID out of the equation and have a conversation about any other type of conflict between individual desires and team requirements, we can have a variety of opinions but we will see these differences as understandable. Inject Covid, and because of prior politicization, suddenly these differences can drift into personal attack, conspiracy, idiotic non-scientific beliefs, partisanship, failure of character and in-American activity.

Not a single person has said anything political or partisan until now. I didn’t either last time around and still got threatened to be kicked off the site. So my advice is to not talk about those things or even hint at them. Hell I’m still confused about how all this works at all.

 

[orientalnc]

In a highly vaccinated country, that’s exactly what you would expect. They’re basically the only ones left. A lot of Europe used the AstraZeneca vaccine, which is only about 60% effective. So they have much lower protection than shots like Pfizer which runs 96%.

Israel uses the Pfizer & Moderna vaccines and 59% are vaccinated. 62% have at least one shot. I could not find the % of adults.

From my former colleague, "Restaurants, beaches and synagogues are crowded up to pre-pandemic levels in recent weeks."

 

[ramblinwreckguru]

Taking care of your body is precisely why health professionals recommend getting the vaccine.

Until the FDA puts their liability on the line and gives approval for any covid vaccine, your statement has no teeth.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Israel uses the Pfizer & Moderna vaccines and 59% are vaccinated. 62% have at least one shot. I could not find the % of adults.

From my former colleague, "Restaurants, beaches and synagogues are crowded up to pre-pandemic levels in recent weeks."

Wikipedia says 27% are under age 14. So that means 90% of those over 14 have gotten at least one shot.

 

[orientalnc]

Until the FDA puts their liability on the line and gives approval for any covid vaccine, your statement has no teeth.

Would the FDA have any additional liability if they gave the vaccines full approval? Their EUA has, essentially, been the same as full approval and is being treated as such nationwide. Under what law would their risk increase? I am not being argumentative. I have wondered why they have withheld full approval for this long.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Until the FDA puts their liability on the line and gives approval for any covid vaccine, your statement has no teeth.

That’s a canard and a useless statement given the hundreds of millions of vaccines that have been given.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Not a single person has said anything political or partisan until now. I didn’t either last time around and still got threatened to be kicked off the site. So my advice is to not talk about those things or even hint at them. Hell I’m still confused about how all this works at all.

I think most of us know the line but a few can’t help themselves and they don’t even know they’re doing it. It comes out when we have exhausted our differences of opinion and someone feels that these differences are based on some fundamental character flaw, lack of scientific literacy or unAmerican attitude.

 

[orientalnc]

Several posts in this thread are VERY close to personal attacks. This is the only COVID thread still alive. Other mods wanted to shut it down and have humored me in agreeing to allow this discussion. Let's focus on the issues and not the members. Please, do not attack another's opinion. Counter with facts, if you must.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Several posts in this thread are VERY close to personal attacks. This is the only COVID thread still alive. Other mods wanted to shut it down and have humored me in agreeing to allow this discussion. Let's focus on the issues and not the members. Please, do not attack another's opinion. Counter with facts, if you must.

Exactly this.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Which is why if we were talking team rules about curfews, cannabis use, free t-shirts or anything else I don’t think we would be having this problem. But Covid was politicized some 16 months ago and we still can’t quite shake the collective trauma our nation has been through.

 

[MWBATL]

Israel uses the Pfizer & Moderna vaccines and 59% are vaccinated. 62% have at least one shot. I could not find the % of adults.

From my former colleague, "Restaurants, beaches and synagogues are crowded up to pre-pandemic levels in recent weeks."

The issue that remains un-discussed imho is whether the Delta variant is in fact far less lethal. Surges in case counts are almost meaningless. I should hope we would ALL realize by now that covid will be with us forever, just as the Spanish flu has mutated and is still with us every flu season. Some info:
“There are reasons to be hopeful — we’re not seeing a big trend in hospital admissions — but it’s early days,” James Naismith, a structural biologist and the director of Britain’s Rosalind Franklin Institute, a medical research center, told The New York Times (June 8)
and a chart to see this:

UK: Daily new hospital admissions for COVID-19

Hospital data is available for individual UK nations, and English data by NHS Region. Figures are not comparable between nations as Wales includes suspected COVID-19 patients while the other nations only include confirmed cases.

ourworldindata.org

At some point, we have to stop with scare mongering over the word "covid" and relax if someone catches a cold or the normal flu. I agree with @Northeast Stinger that covid has been politicized and wish we could just stick to facts, but I do think our media has found it profitable to scare the bejeesus out of folks with continuing coverage of the latest covid scare. There are tons and tons of scary articles out there about the Delta variant with clarion calls warning of impending doom (my words, but the implications are there..) I don't actually consider this politicalization of covid as much as I see it as the commercialization of the pandemic to drive clicks, readership and viewership. If the disease mutates into a range of mortality that is similar to the normal flu, do you still expect mask mandates and/or lockdowns?

I am not sure we are quite there yet, but to over-react out of fear until the facts are in on this variant is not wise, imho.

Much of the debate on this thread now is really about whether the rules of the NCAA. were overly strict and overly cautious given the science as we know it. I think everyone accepts that the path N C State chose was risky given the published rules and that it came back to bite them. I do not think they were singled out or mishandled in any way given the rules that were known in advance, so in that sense they have no one to blame but themselves.

The question remains whether said NCAA rules were over reactions, given the science.

 

[MWBATL]

I think what you say is on the same track but I did read an article (source forgotten since I read so many) that referred to Israel and Australia as beginning lockdowns due to the Delta variant. Australia was understandable, according to the article, because of the high number of unvaccinated people and the evidence that this population is at high risk for serious adverse effects from Delta. Israel’s motives were not clear to me in the article.

Sharing facts....from yesterday's Jerusalem Post:
Prime Minister Naftali Bennett said Sunday that he hoped not to impose new restrictions despite a rise in the number of new virus cases, citing the lack of increase in the number of patients hospitalized.

“There is an increase in the number of cases but at the moment there is no increase in the number of people hospitalized,” Bennett said at the start of the weekly cabinet meeting. “Our strategy is the maximum protection of Israeli citizens with the minimum violation of routine.”

“Masks instead of restrictions, vaccines instead of lockdowns,” Bennett said.

Let's all hope that this remains true (the no uptick in hospitalizations) for the world's benefit.....

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Sharing facts....from yesterday's Jerusalem Post:
Prime Minister Naftali Bennett said Sunday that he hoped not to impose new restrictions despite a rise in the number of new virus cases, citing the lack of increase in the number of patients hospitalized.

“There is an increase in the number of cases but at the moment there is no increase in the number of people hospitalized,” Bennett said at the start of the weekly cabinet meeting. “Our strategy is the maximum protection of Israeli citizens with the minimum violation of routine.”

“Masks instead of restrictions, vaccines instead of lockdowns,” Bennett said.

Let's all hope that this remains true (the no uptick in hospitalizations) for the world's benefit.....

Sounds good. I also read that their policy now involves what they call “stop light” protocols. Each neighborhood community gets a weekly report from which they enact a series of protocols from lock down to no restrictions using the color code red, orange, yellow or green. Our state department recommends that you check locally on restrictions prior to travel based on what town or neighborhood you are in.

But nation-wide lockdowns have ended for now (as of February) as long as this neighborhood approach works.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

The issue that remains un-discussed imho is whether the Delta variant is in fact far less lethal. Surges in case counts are almost meaningless. I should hope we would ALL realize by now that covid will be with us forever, just as the Spanish flu has mutated and is still with us every flu season. Some info:
“There are reasons to be hopeful — we’re not seeing a big trend in hospital admissions — but it’s early days,” James Naismith, a structural biologist and the director of Britain’s Rosalind Franklin Institute, a medical research center, told The New York Times (June 8)
and a chart to see this:

UK: Daily new hospital admissions for COVID-19

Hospital data is available for individual UK nations, and English data by NHS Region. Figures are not comparable between nations as Wales includes suspected COVID-19 patients while the other nations only include confirmed cases.

ourworldindata.org

At some point, we have to stop with scare mongering over the word "covid" and relax if someone catches a cold or the normal flu. I agree with @Northeast Stinger that covid has been politicized and wish we could just stick to facts, but I do think our media has found it profitable to scare the bejeesus out of folks with continuing coverage of the latest covid scare. There are tons and tons of scary articles out there about the Delta variant with clarion calls warning of impending doom (my words, but the implications are there..) I don't actually consider this politicalization of covid as much as I see it as the commercialization of the pandemic to drive clicks, readership and viewership. If the disease mutates into a range of mortality that is similar to the normal flu, do you still expect mask mandates and/or lockdowns?

I am not sure we are quite there yet, but to over-react out of fear until the facts are in on this variant is not wise, imho.

Much of the debate on this thread now is really about whether the rules of the NCAA. were overly strict and overly cautious given the science as we know it. I think everyone accepts that the path N C State chose was risky given the published rules and that it came back to bite them. I do not think they were singled out or mishandled in any way given the rules that were known in advance, so in that sense they have no one to blame but themselves.

The question remains whether said NCAA rules were over reactions, given the science.

Well said.

To clarify what I meant by Covid having been politicized, early in the pandemic, there were politicians who withheld information, or said it was a hoax, or said it was no worse than the flu, or said it was a Chinese plot, or said it would just go away on its own, or said it was just an attempt to defeat a candidate, or get elected, or scare the public. This was followed late last year with scare stories about the vaccine or that chips were being implanted by the government and on and on.

As a result, I think people listen to discussions about Covid now on “red alert.” People may not be engaging in the earlier politicizing, but they are sensitive to certain words or lines of argument, even if these are legitimate lines of investigation.

So, yes, some news headlines and even stores make me furious because they are misleading and even when they get the facts right they put a scary spin on things. Frustrating.

But the politicizing that was done early on, I fear, has effected our collective psyches. Trust level is very low, whether with scientists, the medical community, the media, government, social institutions or each other. That’s why I think Covid discussions are difficult except with people you know well and with whom you have built in trust.