COVID at CWS

[LibertyTurns]

As an FYI, you can also test positive and not be contageous.

Also, you can test positive and not be positive if they run too many cycles on your test.

 

[FredJacket]

George P Burdell has tested positive 38* times.

....& was fully vaccinated 8* different times too.

*numbers approximate.

 

[MWBATL]

What happened to the concept of "take one for the team?" These guys put their individual freedom before the good of the team and now they are all sitting home instead of playing for a national championship. I was always taught that the Team is more important than the individual.

Part of the reason threads like this break down is when one side or the other passes judgement over decisions made by others. It becomes a “shaming” exercise, which can quickly rub folks the wrong way.

Neither you nor I know why these young men made their decisions the way they did. But some folks have genuine concern about possible long term issues with the vaccine, and they know COVID is almost never lethal for someone like them.

The NCAA rules are what they are, so it cost N C State. But there can be genuine arguments that the NCAA rules were too restrictive given the low health risk to young people and the fact that the stands are full of folks whom you have no idea about...

 

[ncjacket79]

As an FYI, you can also test positive and not be contageous.

Yep, or at least much less contagious.

 

[WreckinGT]

Part of the reason threads like this break down is when one side or the other passes judgement over decisions made by others. It becomes a “shaming” exercise, which can quickly rub folks the wrong way.

Neither you nor I know why these young men made their decisions the way they did. But some folks have genuine concern about possible long term issues with the vaccine, and they know COVID is almost never lethal for someone like them.

The NCAA rules are what they are, so it cost N C State. But there can be genuine arguments that the NCAA rules were too restrictive given the low health risk to young people and the fact that the stands are full of folks whom you have no idea about...

If the rules were too restrictive then we would have seen many more teams impacted across all sports and significant backlash from NCAA members. The truth is, its not that restrictive and it was very easy for every other program in the CWS to not get eliminated for the same reason. At this point choosing not to get vaccinated is a business decision as much as a personal decision for many. NC State's players and Jon Rahm figured this out the hard way. NFL players who choose to not get vaccinated are going to have a much tougher season in 2021 than those who choose to get vaccinated. That is just how the world works now. You are still obviously free to make any personal decision that you want but you have to live with the consequences depending on what organization and society you are trying to be a part of.

 

[BonafideJacket]

If the rules were too restrictive then we would have seen many more teams impacted across all sports and significant backlash from NCAA members. The truth is, its not that restrictive and it was very easy for every other program in the CWS to not get eliminated for the same reason. At this point choosing not to get vaccinated is a business decision as much as a personal decision for many. NC State's players and Jon Rahm figured this out the hard way. NFL players who choose to not get vaccinated are going to have a much tougher season in 2021 than those who choose to get vaccinated. That is just how the world works now. You are still obviously free to make any personal decision that you want but you have to live with the consequences depending on what organization and society you are trying to be a part of.

Good points, but I don't believe anyone is arguing the rules have been too restrictive from the outset. They served their purpose at the height of the pandemic through this past spring. However, other than baseball, the only other sports that people pay enough attention to care about ended in March. The reality on the ground has changed a lot since then, hence why TD Ameritrade was packed with 100% capacity. The argument is that the NCAA is either a) too slow to adapt to the current conditions, b) acting with malice towards or against certain teams or individuals due to institutional bias, or c) incompetent. I tend to believe it's (c) (Hanlon's Razor).

Also haven't seen many folks arguing that NC State should have been given some sort of pass. I have concerns about the NCAA's discretion and authority under existing protocol to test the entire team, including vaccinated players, without evidence of true community spread, but the unvaccinated players clearly knew the rules and accepted the risk. We can agree that they should play by the rules clearly communicated to them, but that shouldn't keep us from questioning the rules themselves. And if they need changing or updating, it should be done quickly and effectively. The NCAA (or any other org like the NFL) telling folks "them's the breaks" without regular reassessment and reevaluation of the rules and consequences is at best lazy or stupid.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Part of the reason threads like this break down is when one side or the other passes judgement over decisions made by others. It becomes a “shaming” exercise, which can quickly rub folks the wrong way.

Neither you nor I know why these young men made their decisions the way they did. But some folks have genuine concern about possible long term issues with the vaccine, and they know COVID is almost never lethal for someone like them.

The NCAA rules are what they are, so it cost N C State. But there can be genuine arguments that the NCAA rules were too restrictive given the low health risk to young people and the fact that the stands are full of folks whom you have no idea about...

You’re not wrong about the general tone. So I almost hate to reply because I agree with so much of it.

But, for the sake of clarifying this “shamming tone…”

One slight issue I have is that so many of these “personal decisions” are based on faulty information. I have yet to see any solid research indicating that getting the vaccine is more hazardous to your health than getting Covid.

In the end, the NCAA (boo-hiss) has to make the best decision they can under the circumstances and then enforce the rules. We can agree all day about their maddeningly poor choices and inconsistent enforcement but I still wish some of the players had made better decisions.

I remember a discussion years ago in which some were advocating football players play without helmets, like rugby players, and suggesting this would be safer. If a football player sited this as reason why he should not be required to wear a helmet I think most of us would say, “Too bad, the rules are the rules; you have to wear a helmet.”

 

[WreckinGT]

Good points, but I don't believe anyone is arguing the rules have been too restrictive from the outset. They served their purpose at the height of the pandemic through this past spring. However, other than baseball, the only other sports that people pay enough attention to care about ended in March. The reality on the ground has changed a lot since then, hence why TD Ameritrade was packed with 100% capacity. The argument is that the NCAA is either a) too slow to adapt to the current conditions, b) acting with malice towards or against certain teams or individuals due to institutional bias, or c) incompetent. I tend to believe it's (c) (Hanlon's Razor).

Also haven't seen many folks arguing that NC State should have been given some sort of pass. I have concerns about the NCAA's discretion and authority under existing protocol to test the entire team, including vaccinated players, without evidence of true community spread, but the unvaccinated players clearly knew the rules and accepted the risk. We can agree that they should play by the rules clearly communicated to them, but that shouldn't keep us from questioning the rules themselves. And if they need changing or updating, it should be done quickly and effectively. The NCAA (or any other org like the NFL) telling folks "them's the breaks" without regular reassessment and reevaluation of the rules and consequences is at best lazy or stupid.

The NCAA has reassessed the rules. At the end of April they reassessed their guidance with regards to fully vaccinated athletes and testing policies. In May they reassessed their policies with regards to fan capacity, masks, and social distancing by allowing local health authorities to set guidelines for events. That's why TD Ameritrade was packed. Because the local health authorities said it could be. If they are still very careful, possibly overly careful when it comes to the health and safety of student athletes, that is just something athletes are going to have to deal with for a while. The NCAA is going to make sure they are covered from any liability and create the appearance of a safe competing environment.

 

[MWBATL]

The NCAA is going to make sure they are covered from any liability and create the appearance of a safe competing environment.

This.

And it's my only real complaint, at the end of the day. I feel way too many decisions in Western societies are based on "not getting sued" as opposed to what may be the best, most logical course of action. Just my opinion. I still am of the opinion that...based on current knowledge and understanding, the risks associated with covid within the team...in a sport played outside amongst young men...is hardly worse than a cold or the flu itself. It is not lethal in that age range. More guys in that age range died in auto accidents last year, iirc. I think the decision making stinks when it is driven by "what saves the NCAA's a$$ from being sued" as opposed to what is best for the student athletes themselves.

 

[MWBATL]

You’re not wrong about the general tone. So I almost hate to reply because I agree with so much of it.

But, for the sake of clarifying this “shamming tone…”

One slight issue I have is that so many of these “personal decisions” are based on faulty information. I have yet to see any solid research indicating that getting the vaccine is more hazardous to your health than getting Covid.

In the end, the NCAA (boo-hiss) has to make the best decision they can under the circumstances and then enforce the rules. We can agree all day about their maddeningly poor choices and inconsistent enforcement but I still wish some of the players had made better decisions.

I remember a discussion years ago in which some were advocating football players play without helmets, like rugby players, and suggesting this would be safer. If a football player sited this as reason why he should not be required to wear a helmet I think most of us would say, “Too bad, the rules are the rules; you have to wear a helmet.”

I don't believe there is any. Generally, from what I understand (hey, I've been vaccinated so what do I know?), the fear of the vaccine is based on what MIGHT occur 3-5 years down the line. Not data driven, but fear driven.

The only place we disagree is that I think your analogy of the football helmet is wrong. The worst thing that happens to 99% of young people who get covid is that the feel lousy for a couple of days. It is generally NOT going to permanently affect them the way playing without a helmet would. I do think we sometimes might make the mistake of thinking that covid...which can be so dangerous and deadly to older folks (like me) is somehow dangerous to younger folks. As far as the data I have seen, it simply...isn't. But if you have other data, I'd love to see it.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I don't believe there is any. Generally, from what I understand (hey, I've been vaccinated so what do I know?), the fear of the vaccine is based on what MIGHT occur 3-5 years down the line. Not data driven, but fear driven.

The only place we disagree is that I think your analogy of the football helmet is wrong. The worst thing that happens to 99% of young people who get covid is that the feel lousy for a couple of days. It is generally NOT going to permanently affect them the way playing without a helmet would. I do think we sometimes might make the mistake of thinking that covid...which can be so dangerous and deadly to older folks (like me) is somehow dangerous to younger folks. As far as the data I have seen, it simply...isn't. But if you have other data, I'd love to see it.

Nothing to argue with here, just the usual nuance.

The “what might happen 3-4 years” concern is a more valid concern for young people who contract Covid. The research isn’t definitive yet but it is an on-going area of investigation because of the significant amount of anecdotal evidence that athletes can suffer permanent heart damage. A simple Google search will bring this up.

The analogy of the football helmet was to make two points. The first was that one can find arguments for not wearing one (wearing one restricts field of vision causing more unexpected collisions; helmets give a false sense of security; helmets can be inadvertently weaponized; helmets make players less concerned about their heads when blocking or tackling etc.) and these arguments are far more data driven than the arguments that getting a vaccine is dangerous.

Yes, I would still wear a helmet so let’s not miss the forest for the trees.

The second point of the analogy was simply that the NCAA came up with a rule about helmets, which some disagree with, but even if a player claimed personal choice in not wearing a helmet, we are all so conditioned to accept helmets that we would just tell the athlete to wear a helmet or not play and be done with it.

Also, helmets are not politicized like Covid and vaccines so we can see the issue more clearly I think.

But I actually don’t disagree with you in principle I just hate having to choose between an incompetent NCAA versus praising an athlete for making what I think was a really stupid decision that cost a chance at a championship.

In the long run the more of us who get vaccinated the more likely we are to create dead ends in which the virus can no longer spread and mutate. Any leverage that makes this more likely is not necessarily all bad.

 

[WreckinGT]

This.

And it's my only real complaint, at the end of the day. I feel way too many decisions in Western societies are based on "not getting sued" as opposed to what may be the best, most logical course of action. Just my opinion. I still am of the opinion that...based on current knowledge and understanding, the risks associated with covid within the team...in a sport played outside amongst young men...is hardly worse than a cold or the flu itself. It is not lethal in that age range. More guys in that age range died in auto accidents last year, iirc. I think the decision making stinks when it is driven by "what saves the NCAA's a$$ from being sued" as opposed to what is best for the student athletes themselves.

The problem here is that the best logical course of action is still pretty subjective. If you were to create a list of guidelines the NCAA should follow it would likely look different than what many public health experts would suggest, especially with respect to the emerging Delta variant that caused all of the NC State cases. No matter what the NCAA decides on its guidelines, they are going to be criticized for it. It makes no sense for them not to go the safest route. That doesn’t really absolve them from how they handled the NC State case though. That was more of a fiasco then it should have been.

 

[GT_EE78]

The “what might happen 3-4 years” concern is a more valid concern for young people who contract Covid.

It is also a valid concern (myocarditis) for any young people who take a mRNA injection. (links below)
That is why the CDC has added a heart inflammation warning for the Moderna and Pfizer injections(links below)
Yes they are still saying it is worth the risk to take them.
.
I do not think the helmut analogy is relevant to this issue.In fact I do not think it is appropriate at all.
Each person needs to consider their own health status, age and risk from both the virus and the EUA drugs before deciding.
If that analogy actually influenced someone you could be inadvertently contributing toward someone or their child getting heart disease.
.
"U.S. health regulators last week added a warning to the literature that accompanies those mRNA vaccines to flag the rare risk of heart inflammation"

Heart inflammation after COVID-19 shots higher than expected in study of U.S. military

Members of the U.S. military who were vaccinated against COVID-19 showed higher-than-expected rates of heart inflammation, although the condition was still extremely rare, according to a study released on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

"Since April 2021, there have been more than a thousand reports to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) of cases of inflammation of the heart—called myocarditis and pericarditis—happening after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination (i.e., Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna) in the United States."

COVID-19 Vaccination

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.

www.cdc.gov

"(CDC) safety panel said there is a "likely association" of mild heart inflammation in adolescents and young adults after they were vaccinated with an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine..The agency said there have been 267 cases of myocarditis or pericarditis reported after receiving one dose of the mRNA vaccines and 827 reported cases after two doses through June 11. "

CDC panel finds ‘likely’ link between mild heart inflammation in adolescents and COVID-19 vaccine

A Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) safety panel said there is a “likely association” of mild heart inflammation in adolescents and young adults after they were vaccinate…

thehill.com

 

[TampaBuzz]

4 out of 6 of “the sick” were vaccinated so obviously the opinion that having the team fully vaccinated would have kept them in the tournament is what the NCAA & others want us to believe. However, the odds were better of not getting “sick” if you weren’t vaccinated.

I still support vaccination & believe it’s a good thing, but it’s a personal choice. Unfortunately, the facts in this case don’t represent what a lot of people want to believe, it didn’t afford the level of protection desired, etc & acting like the facts don’t matter doesn’t change the facts. People are going to be more skeptical of the supposed experts if they see one thing happening & are told another.

If understand correctly, folks that had not been vaccinated were the only people regularly tested during the event. Those positives triggered testing of the entire team that then picked up the vaccinated folks. If that is correct, then having the entire team vaccinated prior would have eliminated all testing of the team and they would not have lost the opportunity to play for the title.

This is from the NCAA protocol:
▪ The NCAA says fully vaccinated players and other Tier 1 individuals with no COVID-19-like symptoms may be exempt from routine testing.
▪ Players and other Tier 1 participants who are not vaccinated must continue to undergo testing at NCAA championships.

 

[MWBATL]

If understand correctly, folks that had not been vaccinated were the only people regularly tested during the event. Those positives triggered testing of the entire team that then picked up the vaccinated folks. If that is correct, then having the entire team vaccinated prior would have eliminated all testing of the team and they would not have lost the opportunity to play for the title.

This is from the NCAA protocol:
▪ The NCAA says fully vaccinated players and other Tier 1 individuals with no COVID-19-like symptoms may be exempt from routine testing.
▪ Players and other Tier 1 participants who are not vaccinated must continue to undergo testing at NCAA championships.

That's my understanding as well.

 

[MWBATL]

The problem here is that the best logical course of action is still pretty subjective. If you were to create a list of guidelines the NCAA should follow it would likely look different than what many public health experts would suggest, especially with respect to the emerging Delta variant that caused all of the NC State cases. No matter what the NCAA decides on its guidelines, they are going to be criticized for it. It makes no sense for them not to go the safest route. That doesn’t really absolve them from how they handled the NC State case though. That was more of a fiasco then it should have been.

I agree with absolutely everything you said. except the bolded part.

I know I am railing against the tide, so to speak. But again, just to go the safest route is not always the best answer. It is in our litigious society which is over-run with litigation attorneys looking for work. So, in that sense, you are correct.

But this is not a life threatening issue for young men that age, so in that sense, the safety is not much of a concern. If they allowed these teams to take buses to the stadium, they probably had as much risk as they would from a covid outbreak. From a PR perspective, the NCAA wants to look like they are "doing something". But that isn't the 'right' answer for the young men involved, imho.

And so my beef remains with an NCAA that would rather CYA than do what is best for the athletes.

I do get your point that what they did was the thing most would do, and certainly what every major corporation would do. Still doesn't make it 'right' in my eyes.

Just my opinion.

 

[LibertyTurns]

@TampaBuzz I hear you but after the 2 unvaccinated got sick and were tested they tested every single unvaccinated player and nobody was sick. Not a single unvaccinated player was sick. No further action was required. Additionally the NCAA refused to make
minor changes to the schedule to let ncst play at near full strength. Then seizing an advantage Vandy demanded the entire team of vaccinated players be tested and the NCAA bent over. That led to 4 vaccinated players being found to be sick and ncst being cancelled from the CWS. Not sure why these facts are so contentious, they’re just facts. Ultimately the vaccinated sick players caused the cancellation not the 2 unvaccinated and NCAA and Vandy drove this. I’m glad they lost. Vandy should have shown good sportsmanship instead of acting like they did.

 

[orientalnc]

@TampaBuzz I hear you but after the 2 unvaccinated got sick and were tested they tested every single unvaccinated player and nobody was sick. Not a single unvaccinated player was sick. No further action was required. Additionally the NCAA refused to make
minor changes to the schedule to let ncst play at near full strength. Then seizing an advantage Vandy demanded the entire team of vaccinated players be tested and the NCAA bent over. That led to 4 vaccinated players being found to be sick and ncst being cancelled from the CWS. Not sure why these facts are so contentious, they’re just facts. Ultimately the vaccinated sick players caused the cancellation not the 2 unvaccinated and NCAA and Vandy drove this. I’m glad they lost. Vandy should have shown good sportsmanship instead of acting like they did.

Were the vaccinated players who tested positive actually sick? I thought they played in the 3-1 loss Friday.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

It is also a valid concern (myocarditis) for any young people who take a mRNA injection. (links below)
That is why the CDC has added a heart inflammation warning for the Moderna and Pfizer injections(links below)
Yes they are still saying it is worth the risk to take them.
.
I do not think the helmut analogy is relevant to this issue.In fact I do not think it is appropriate at all.
Each person needs to consider their own health status, age and risk from both the virus and the EUA drugs before deciding.
If that analogy actually influenced someone you could be inadvertently contributing toward someone or their child getting heart disease.
.
"U.S. health regulators last week added a warning to the literature that accompanies those mRNA vaccines to flag the rare risk of heart inflammation"

Heart inflammation after COVID-19 shots higher than expected in study of U.S. military

Members of the U.S. military who were vaccinated against COVID-19 showed higher-than-expected rates of heart inflammation, although the condition was still extremely rare, according to a study released on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

"Since April 2021, there have been more than a thousand reports to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) of cases of inflammation of the heart—called myocarditis and pericarditis—happening after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination (i.e., Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna) in the United States."

COVID-19 Vaccination

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.

www.cdc.gov

"(CDC) safety panel said there is a "likely association" of mild heart inflammation in adolescents and young adults after they were vaccinated with an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine..The agency said there have been 267 cases of myocarditis or pericarditis reported after receiving one dose of the mRNA vaccines and 827 reported cases after two doses through June 11. "

CDC panel finds ‘likely’ link between mild heart inflammation in adolescents and COVID-19 vaccine

A Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) safety panel said there is a “likely association” of mild heart inflammation in adolescents and young adults after they were vaccinate…

thehill.com

This is straining at gnats to swallow camels. The inflammation has been temporary with no damage and occurs in less than 0.005 cases. Covid is still by far the greatest threat for myocarditis.

 

[GT_EE78]

This is straining at gnats to swallow camels. The inflammation has been temporary with no damage and occurs in less than 0.005 cases. Covid is still by far the greatest threat for myocarditis.

LOL...not enough data yet for either virus or vax to be certain.