COVID at CWS

[Northeast Stinger]

Yea that's juicy isn't it. Who gives AF what a team asks? You either follow the rules or you don't. Why would they want a bunch of vaccinated players to be tested? LOL.

Juicy enough that I ALMOST hope it is true.

Sometimes I wonder if my life is empty

 

[BonafideJacket]

Tell me if there is different news, but Jarrett and Justice were both ill and tested positive. That allowed the NCAA to require testing of the entire team. Neither were vaccinated.

The bolded is where the rub seems to lie with many NCSU folks. The protocols in place permitted testing of unvaccinated players. Testing of vaccinated players would only occur when there was evidence of "substantial or high transmission in the community," a definition which linked to CDC guidance which indicates a threshold of 8-10% of positive tests. I think it's a bit of a stretch to call two positive tests "substantial or high transmission in the community," but apparently that's the way the NCAA went. Perhaps they defined "community" as the "NCSU Baseball team" and not the actual Omaha community.

See "Testing strategies for remaining championships" at https://www.ncaa.org/sport-science-institute/championships-safety-overview

 

[orientalnc]

The bolded is where the rub seems to lie with many NCSU folks. The protocols in place permitted testing of unvaccinated players. Testing of vaccinated players would only occur when there was evidence of "substantial or high transmission in the community," a definition which linked to CDC guidance which indicates a threshold of 8-10% of positive tests. I think it's a bit of a stretch to call two positive tests "substantial or high transmission in the community," but apparently that's the way the NCAA went. Perhaps they defined "community" as the "NCSU Baseball team" and not the actual Omaha community.

See "Testing strategies for remaining championships" at https://www.ncaa.org/sport-science-institute/championships-safety-overview

I live amongst a lot of State fans and alumni here in eastern NC. Even they are split on this issue.

Here is the key paragraph in that link you provided:

"The testing schedule for Tier 1 individuals is outlined in the chart below. Fully vaccinated student-athletes and other Tier 1 individuals with no COVID-19-like symptoms may be exempt from routine testing. Student-athletes and other Tier 1 participants who are not vaccinated must continue to undergo testing at NCAA championships." The bolding is mine. The NCAA always retained the responsibility/authority to require testing of vaccinated individuals.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

Like him or hate him, it doesn't matter, but Dave Portnoy nails it when he says there was an entire stadium full of untested (unknown vax status too, I might add) people, and they ruin an entire season because of a couple of kids on the field??? I am no NCSU fan at all, but I think they got screwed, and the way it happened is disgusting.

 

[BonafideJacket]

Here is the key paragraph in that link you provided:

"The testing schedule for Tier 1 individuals is outlined in the chart below. Fully vaccinated student-athletes and other Tier 1 individuals with no COVID-19-like symptoms may be exempt from routine testing. Student-athletes and other Tier 1 participants who are not vaccinated must continue to undergo testing at NCAA championships." The bolding is mine. The NCAA always retained the responsibility/authority to require testing of vaccinated individuals.

I read the "may" there as referring to the possibility of testing vaxxed players when there is community spread as detailed later on in the protocol, not that the NCAA has carte blanche to test whomever and whenever they want. If that is the case, then the exception swallows the rule and makes the whole thing pointless. It's poorly written that's for sure.

 

[LibertyTurns]

People can debate the merits of Covid policy but two things are clear. The NCAA permitted an opponent to dictate policy which is just absurd AND the bigger item- the NCAA lied about the facts. Why do you lie when the facts are in your side? What’s the motivation for lying? Makes no sense but here we are and there’s no accountability for the liars. The only honest group got the shaft in the dead of the night without even the benefit of a reach around. We’ll at least the CWS is now over.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

People can debate the merits of Covid policy but two things are clear. The NCAA permitted an opponent to dictate policy which is just absurd AND the bigger item- the NCAA lied about the facts. Why do you lie when the facts are in your side? What’s the motivation for lying? Makes no sense but here we are and there’s no accountability for the liars. The only honest group got the shaft in the dead of the night without even the benefit of a reach around. We’ll at least the CWS is now over.

Imagine if the NCAA cared as much about wiretapped recorded conversations of coaches paying players and of live video of people handing money out to players on the field.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

The easy way to unite everyone on this thread is go after the NCAA. Low hanging fruit.

 

[armeck]

I live amongst a lot of State fans and alumni here in eastern NC. Even they are split on this issue.

Here is the key paragraph in that link you provided:

"The testing schedule for Tier 1 individuals is outlined in the chart below. Fully vaccinated student-athletes and other Tier 1 individuals with no COVID-19-like symptoms may be exempt from routine testing. Student-athletes and other Tier 1 participants who are not vaccinated must continue to undergo testing at NCAA championships." The bolding is mine. The NCAA always retained the responsibility/authority to require testing of vaccinated individuals.

That policy is just like last month when the PGA pulled Rahm after the third round. Had he been vaxxed he would have never been tested. All players who were not vaxxed were tested regularly.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

That policy is just like last month when the PGA pulled Rahm after the third round. Had he been vaxxed he would have never been tested. All players who were not vaxxed were tested regularly.

I don't see the connection - the NC State vaccinated players were actually tested. They didn't just remove the two unvaccinated guys who tested positive - they tested the vaccinated players too and kicked out the whole team. I mean I see the connection in terms of 'get vaccinated', but the NCAA took this beyond the PGA. This would be akin to the PGA canceling that tournament and sending all the golfers home because Rahm tested positive.

 

[armeck]

I don't see the connection - the NC State vaccinated players were actually tested. They didn't just remove the two unvaccinated guys who tested positive - they tested the vaccinated players too and kicked out the whole team. I mean I see the connection in terms of 'get vaccinated', but the NCAA took this beyond the PGA. This would be akin to the PGA canceling that tournament and sending all the golfers home because Rahm tested positive.

This part is the same:
"Student-athletes and other Tier 1 participants who are not vaccinated must continue to undergo testing at NCAA championships."

Had they been vaxxed, and even had the virus, they would have been most likely asymptomatic, not triggered the testing protocol and nobody would have known. They weren't vaxxed, got sick and sunk everyone else.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

This part is the same:
"Student-athletes and other Tier 1 participants who are not vaccinated must continue to undergo testing at NCAA championships."

Had they been vaxxed, and even had the virus, they would have been most likely asymptomatic, not triggered the testing protocol and nobody would have known. They weren't vaxxed, got sick and sunk everyone else.

It's the "sunk everyone else" part that is totally different. As @SnidelyWhiplash said, using that approach, then the PGA should have entirely canceled that tournament. And as Dave Portnoy pointed out, there was far more potential harm done by any (probably many) positive-tested and unvaccinated fans in the stands than by those tow YOUNG players on that or any baseball team.

 

[FredJacket]

Yes. Will be interesting how this is covered over next few days during the live broadcasts of the this final series.

The optics....
a stadium packed with unmasked, [quite a few] high-risk [looking] fans [insert SEC joke here]
...all while a predominantly well above average (health-wise) team poised to make their run was sent home...

....is bad optics.

We'll see if anybody notices.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Yes. Will be interesting how this is covered over next few days during the live broadcasts of the this final series.

The optics....
a stadium packed with unmasked, [quite a few] high-risk [looking] fans [insert SEC joke here]
...all while a predominantly well above average (health-wise) team poised to make their run was sent home...

....is bad optics.

We'll see if anybody notices.

The NCAA has never cared about how stupid, inconsistent, hypocritical, and biased they look. They won't care this time either.

 

[MWBATL]

On my to-do list, if I can drum up enough interest, is to investigate why Israel, who was praised as a world leader in vaccination rate, is now recommending lockdowns.

If Israel is recommending lockdowns, I would enjoy seeing those links.

I know they are reacting to the Delta variant, which has caused cases to rise again. But apparently hospitalizations and deaths have not (they have had one death in the last two weeks total). I do believe they have reintroduced a mask mandate out of caution. (Is that what you meant?)

My current understanding is that, as with so many viruses that spread and mutate, it (the Delta variant) is more infectious than previous strains, but less lethal. Rises in cases in immaterial, but we need to keep an eye on hospitalizations.

 

[slugboy]

From reading the D1 baseball article, the impression I got was

1. Some of NCST’s players started showing symptoms
2. Avent mentions a player having a “bug” in a press conference
3. A player “PlayerA” tests positive. His roommate PlayerB goes into quarantine because of tracing
4. PlayerB tries to test out; shows positive and he’s definitely out. NCST now has two cases
5. Two more players show symptoms. They test positive
6. At that point, the NCAA sees this as a trend, and limits NCST to playing only vaccinated players—both less likely to get seriously ill, less likely to catch the virus, and less likely to spread the virus. This knocks out half the team.
7. The NCAA tests everyone to see how widespread the virus is. They find four more players testing positive.
8. It takes until around midnight for the results to come back. NCST is livid with the communication, but the tests probably just took a long time to process.
9. The NCAA looked at the growing numbers and said “the infection is not under control”. Postponing for a day or two would probably not be enough time to change the course of the outbreak. They’re not going to postpone for a week. At this point, the NCAA calls a forfeit.

When I’ve read NCAA rules, the rule book is large, but the rules are short. They give a general understanding, but there’s a lot of room for interpretation, and the NCAA does the interpreting. I’ve given the NCAA a lot of flak over the past few years, but this looks like a strict and lawyerly act by the NCAA and not a capricious one. I guess my question is “would they have treated Mississippi State or Vandy the same way?”

I’m pretty sure at least MSU would have gotten the same treatment.

If 3/4ths of NCST’s team was vaccinated instead of 1/2, they probably play for the title. It would have changed the players available for game 1, and probably for game 2. That could have taken the decision out of the hands of the NCAA.

You can blame a horse for running away, but you have to shoulder some of the blame if you left the stable door wide open. NCST has to shoulder at least some of the blame for letting this slip away. The question is how much? Is it 50/50? Is it majority NCST?

PS: I think the NCAA is capricious for giving us an NCAA basketball ban while LSU still has a basketball coach, or any number of examples of uneven enforcement and penalties.

PPS: I’d have been happy if our players could have been fully vaccinated before the NCAAs. We could have been in the Sweet 16.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

From reading the D1 baseball article, the impression I got was

1. Some of NCST’s players started showing symptoms
2. Avent mentions a player having a “bug” in a press conference
3. A player “PlayerA” tests positive. His roommate PlayerB goes into quarantine because of tracing
4. PlayerB tries to test out; shows positive and he’s definitely out. NCST now has two cases
5. Two more players show symptoms. They test positive
6. At that point, the NCAA sees this as a trend, and limits NCST to playing only vaccinated players—both less likely to get seriously ill, less likely to catch the virus, and less likely to spread the virus. This knocks out half the team.
7. The NCAA tests everyone to see how widespread the virus is. They find four more players testing positive.
8. It takes until around midnight for the results to come back. NCST is livid with the communication, but the tests probably just took a long time to process.
9. The NCAA looked at the growing numbers and said “the infection is not under control”. Postponing for a day or two would probably not be enough time to change the course of the outbreak. They’re not going to postpone for a week. At this point, the NCAA calls a forfeit.

When I’ve read NCAA rules, the rule book is large, but the rules are short. They give a general understanding, but there’s a lot of room for interpretation, and the NCAA does the interpreting. I’ve given the NCAA a lot of flak over the past few years, but this looks like a strict and lawyerly act by the NCAA and not a capricious one. I guess my question is “would they have treated Mississippi State or Vandy the same way?”

I’m pretty sure at least MSU would have gotten the same treatment.

If 3/4ths of NCST’s team was vaccinated instead of 1/2, they probably play for the title. It would have changed the players available for game 1, and probably for game 2. That could have taken the decision out of the hands of the NCAA.

You can blame a horse for running away, but you have to shoulder some of the blame if you left the stable door wide open. NCST has to shoulder at least some of the blame for letting this slip away. The question is how much? Is it 50/50? Is it majority NCST?

PS: I think the NCAA is capricious for giving us an NCAA basketball ban while LSU still has a basketball coach, or any number of examples of uneven enforcement and penalties.

PPS: I’d have been happy if our players could have been fully vaccinated before the NCAAs. We could have been in the Sweet 16.

I think your 50/50 offer is a pretty fair take. There is no data that spread happens in any appreciable amount outdoors if you're not in crowds...per the CDC. Covid is less deadly for people this age than the flu...per the CDC. We've been below the total number of expected deaths from all causes in this country for 3 1/2 months meaning we're not in a pandemic...per the CDC. Baseball is played outdoors without close contact, which means it can be played safely...per the CDC. Anybody who is asymptomatic could even wear a mask if people cared. The entire rules they are going by now were contrary to the science we knew close to a year ago. But at the same time as we've all said here, you don't give a dysfunctional idiotic organization like the NCAA who has already tried to shut down sports like football before and then didn't learn anything from their mistake a chance to mess you up. Half the team doesn't want to get vaccinated? Well so be it, the vaccine isn't fully approved yet - but you better run your team in a separated bubble both internally and externally to protect yourselves from the NCAA being able to pull something like this. How NC State was treated honestly doesn't surprise me one bit, and it shouldn't surprise them either.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

If Israel is recommending lockdowns, I would enjoy seeing those links.

I know they are reacting to the Delta variant, which has caused cases to rise again. But apparently hospitalizations and deaths have not (they have had one death in the last two weeks total). I do believe they have reintroduced a mask mandate out of caution. (Is that what you meant?)

My current understanding is that, as with so many viruses that spread and mutate, it (the Delta variant) is more infectious than previous strains, but less lethal. Rises in cases in immaterial, but we need to keep an eye on hospitalizations.

I think what you say is on the same track but I did read an article (source forgotten since I read so many) that referred to Israel and Australia as beginning lockdowns due to the Delta variant. Australia was understandable, according to the article, because of the high number of unvaccinated people and the evidence that this population is at high risk for serious adverse effects from Delta. Israel’s motives were not clear to me in the article.

 

[orientalnc]

According to the Jerusalem Post one third of the new cases in Israel are in children 12-15 years of age. They had never vaccinated that group. That article was a week old, so take that for what it is.

 

[awbuzz]

The NC St players that didn't get vaccinated get the privilege of knowing that they took away the opportunity for themselves and their teammates and fans to make a run to win the CWS. Granted, it does not guarantee that if they had been vaccinated that they would have beaten Vanderbilt to make it to the championship round. Unfortunately, we will never know.