Coronavirus Thread

[Deleted member 2897]

Crazy - both Italy and Spain set new records with about 1,000 deaths each in the last 24 hours. Europe is about 2 weeks ahead of us - it’s hard to believe nobody over there still shows any sign of an ease.

 

[GT_EE78]

If there were a control group of 80 people observed during the same study, the results probably would not have been very different. If this was an actual test, and these are the actual results, it probably isn't much different than without medication. Also, it still is not a randomized study to determine if the drugs actually do work. If this is indeed another study by Raoult, you would think that he would actually start acting scientifically.

Dr Ronjohn, if you had 80 sick,dying and infected patients, then would you take the time to randomly give half of them a placebo, in order to upgrade the quality of the test?

 

[RonJohn]

Dr Ronjohn, if you had 80 sick,dying and infected patients, then would you take the time to randomly give half of them a placebo, in order to upgrade the quality of the test?

I haven't stated that I am a doctor. I also remind you that I have not posted links to what is at all appearances a FAKE website.

Did you read the article you linked to, or did you only read the headline? Does the fact that the mortality rate in their study is either equal to or twice the expected mortality rate not bother you? I would highly recommend that you not believe everything you see on the internet, especially when the people giving you the information won't even tell you who they are.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

I haven't stated that I am a doctor. I also remind you that I have not posted links to what is at all appearances a FAKE website.

Did you read the article you linked to, or did you only read the headline? Does the fact that the mortality rate in their study is either equal to or twice the expected mortality rate not bother you? I would highly recommend that you not believe everything you see on the internet, especially when the people giving you the information won't even tell you who they are.

While there is questionable data in that study for sure, the mortality assumptions you are making are false. Look up what the mortality rate for people in serious condition in the ICU with Coronavirus is. You might be shocked to learn that while the numbers vary by country and region, it’s often well over 10%. That gets at EEs point - if you have a bunch of gravely ill people, what have we got to lose?

 

[dtm1997]

We are now testing 100,000 PER DAY for COVID-19. Big League.

We’re at 101,000 cases now.

I haven't been able to keep up with this thread and I haven't read the details here yet, but there's this good new.

 

[RonJohn]

While there is questionable data in that study for sure, the mortality assumptions you are making are false. Look up what the mortality rate for people in serious condition in the ICU with Coronavirus is. You might be shocked to learn that while the numbers vary by country and region, it’s often well over 10%. That gets at EEs point - if you have a bunch of gravely ill people, what have we got to lose?

The data presented on that fake website did not state that the people were critically ill when given the medicine. The mortality rates have been all over the map. The same group in the UK had models in which one predicted over 3% and another predicted 0.02%. The numbers available now are not good enough to state actual mortality rates. Most experts I have seen, including Dr. Fauci, believe it will be about 1%. They don't know, they are just making educated guesses.

If you have gravely ill people, you want to give them something that works. Does chloroquine work? Nobody knows for sure. Should they stop testing for other medicines before it is proven that chloroquine works simply because a political activist wrote a Google Doc claiming that it does, while using fraudulent credentials and fraudulently claiming co-writers who never worked with him and don't endorse his document? Should they stop testing other medicines because a website that won't tell you who they are or who is writing their stories says that chloroquine is the answer?

 

[Deleted member 2897]

I haven't been able to keep up with this thread and I haven't read the details here yet, but there's this good new.

The best thing out of all of this has been the FDA and the CDC simply getting out of the way.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

The data presented on that fake website did not state that the people were critically ill when given the medicine. The mortality rates have been all over the map. The same group in the UK had models in which one predicted over 3% and another predicted 0.02%. The numbers available now are not good enough to state actual mortality rates. Most experts I have seen, including Dr. Fauci, believe it will be about 1%. They don't know, they are just making educated guesses.

If you have gravely ill people, you want to give them something that works. Does chloroquine work? Nobody knows for sure. Should they stop testing for other medicines before it is proven that chloroquine works simply because a political activist wrote a Google Doc claiming that it does, while using fraudulent credentials and fraudulently claiming co-writers who never worked with him and don't endorse his document? Should they stop testing other medicines because a website that won't tell you who they are or who is writing their stories says that chloroquine is the answer?

Hasn't Dr Fauci said that chloroquine MIGHT work, and that it is being looked more into?

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

The best thing out of all of this has been the FDA and the CDC simply getting out of the way.

AMEN !!!

 

[Deleted member 2897]

The data presented on that fake website did not state that the people were critically ill when given the medicine. The mortality rates have been all over the map. The same group in the UK had models in which one predicted over 3% and another predicted 0.02%. The numbers available now are not good enough to state actual mortality rates. Most experts I have seen, including Dr. Fauci, believe it will be about 1%. They don't know, they are just making educated guesses.

If you have gravely ill people, you want to give them something that works. Does chloroquine work? Nobody knows for sure. Should they stop testing for other medicines before it is proven that chloroquine works simply because a political activist wrote a Google Doc claiming that it does, while using fraudulent credentials and fraudulently claiming co-writers who never worked with him and don't endorse his document? Should they stop testing other medicines because a website that won't tell you who they are or who is writing their stories says that chloroquine is the answer?

The point is when you have a gravely ill group of people who show promising results, shouldn’t we keep helping a controllable group of more gravely ill people in a method that will prove efficacy and safety? I mean the Rest of the world typically says yes while our FDA and others say no. But given we’re in a global pandemic, hopefully we can get them to shut up for a minute.

 

[RonJohn]

The point is when you have a gravely ill group of people who show promising results, shouldn’t we keep helping a controllable group of more gravely ill people in a method that will prove efficacy and safety? I mean the Rest of the world typically says yes while our FDA and others say no. But given we’re in a global pandemic, hopefully we can get them to shut up for a minute.

But then you will complain when the medicine doesn't work but others do that it should have been investigated more. The same as you complained that the FDA was putting too many restrictions on tests, then complained when non-working tests entered the market.

 

[RonJohn]

Hasn't Dr Fauci said that chloroquine MIGHT work, and that it is being looked more into?

Might is the key word there. He also said that over 60 different medicines are being studied that MIGHT work.

What he has basically said is that a non-scientific person saying hopefully that a medicine shows promise is not mutually exclusive of a scientific person saying that the treatment hasn't been proven to work. Anecdotal evidence isn't enough to stop scientific testing of the treatment or of other potential treatments.

The current hysteria over chloroquine isn't really different than Forsythia in the movie Contagion. People in general seem to believe that COVID-19 is the end of the world. It isn't. People then want to believe that there is some magical panacea. There might be, but none has been proven to this point. I guess I am just low-keyed, but I think people would be much better off if they didn't get to frantic about this disease, and then didn't get to hopeful about a magical cure. Be vigilant about protecting yourself: maintain social distance, wash your hands, don't touch your face. Pay attention to medical people about treatment and research. Don't watch 24 hour news stations of any political tilt.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

Might is the key word there. He also said that over 60 different medicines are being studied that MIGHT work.

What he has basically said is that a non-scientific person saying hopefully that a medicine shows promise is not mutually exclusive of a scientific person saying that the treatment hasn't been proven to work. Anecdotal evidence isn't enough to stop scientific testing of the treatment or of other potential treatments.

The current hysteria over chloroquine isn't really different than Forsythia in the movie Contagion. People in general seem to believe that COVID-19 is the end of the world. It isn't. People then want to believe that there is some magical panacea. There might be, but none has been proven to this point. I guess I am just low-keyed, but I think people would be much better off if they didn't get to frantic about this disease, and then didn't get to hopeful about a magical cure. Be vigilant about protecting yourself: maintain social distance, wash your hands, don't touch your face. Pay attention to medical people about treatment and research. Don't watch 24 hour news stations of any political tilt.

Well, one thing's for sure. The governors of Nevada and Michigan and (I think) the mayor of LA saying doctors can't prescribe it is not going to get us anywhere.

 

[takethepoints]

Dr Ronjohn, if you had 80 sick,dying and infected patients, then would you take the time to randomly give half of them a placebo, in order to upgrade the quality of the test?

It's the old Harvard Med School story.

A famous surgeon is addressing a class of aspiring surgeons. He describes a new technique that he says is working to help his previously terminal patients.

A student in the back asks, "What were your controls?"

The surgeon responds, glowering, "Do you mean did I divide my patients into two groups and only give the treatment to half of them?"

The student says, "Well … yes, that is what I mean."

The surgeon slams his fist on the lecture and bellows, "That would mean condemning half of them to death!!"

A small voice responds, "Which half?"

Yep. The answer is yes. We are already doing RCTs on the disease and probably not enough.

 

[RonJohn]

Well, one thing's for sure. The governors of Nevada and Michigan and (I think) the mayor of LA saying doctors can't prescribe it is not going to get us anywhere.

I didn't know that they had. I am staying as far away from political information as possible, mainly looking a societal and medical information. Political arguments are just US vs THEM. WE are right and THEY are wrong. Scientific evidence matters very little, just that WE have to get back at THEM. I have grown extremely tired of people from across the political spectrum arguing with pieces of evidence that support their side's argument while ignoring all other evidence. If you step back and look at it from the outside, all sides are completely irrational.

A question for you. Why would you want chloroquine if you were diagnosed with COVID-19 vs any other medicine that is being studied? Is it because one study "cured" six people while allowing one to die? Is it because a political activist wrote a paper about it and appeared on TV until it was found out that his credentials and co-writers were fraudulent? Is it because a troll website posted an article that it is a cure? Is it because people on Facebook say that it is a cure?

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

I didn't know that they had. I am staying as far away from political information as possible, mainly looking a societal and medical information. Political arguments are just US vs THEM. WE are right and THEY are wrong. Scientific evidence matters very little, just that WE have to get back at THEM. I have grown extremely tired of people from across the political spectrum arguing with pieces of evidence that support their side's argument while ignoring all other evidence. If you step back and look at it from the outside, all sides are completely irrational.

A question for you. Why would you want chloroquine if you were diagnosed with COVID-19 vs any other medicine that is being studied? Is it because one study "cured" six people while allowing one to die? Is it because a political activist wrote a paper about it and appeared on TV until it was found out that his credentials and co-writers were fraudulent? Is it because a troll website posted an article that it is a cure? Is it because people on Facebook say that it is a cure?

The governor of Michigan threatens to revoke the license of any doctor who prescribes chloroquine. Democratic Nevada Gov. Stephen Sisolak signed an emergency order Tuesday barring the use of the anti-malaria drugs chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine for treating coronavirus patients who have not been admitted to a hospital. Since when does ANY politician know more than a doctor?

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

I didn't know that they had. I am staying as far away from political information as possible, mainly looking a societal and medical information. Political arguments are just US vs THEM. WE are right and THEY are wrong. Scientific evidence matters very little, just that WE have to get back at THEM. I have grown extremely tired of people from across the political spectrum arguing with pieces of evidence that support their side's argument while ignoring all other evidence. If you step back and look at it from the outside, all sides are completely irrational.

A question for you. Why would you want chloroquine if you were diagnosed with COVID-19 vs any other medicine that is being studied? Is it because one study "cured" six people while allowing one to die? Is it because a political activist wrote a paper about it and appeared on TV until it was found out that his credentials and co-writers were fraudulent? Is it because a troll website posted an article that it is a cure? Is it because people on Facebook say that it is a cure?

I would be willing to do whatever the doctor ordered. I certainly don't possess enough information to make that decision.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

BTW, I DID hear early on in this case that some people have violent reactions to chloroquine, but again, I would assume that a doctor would have that information and at the very least keep me closely monitored if he prescribed it.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

But then you will complain when the medicine doesn't work but others do that it should have been investigated more. The same as you complained that the FDA was putting too many restrictions on tests, then complained when non-working tests entered the market.

What? LOLOLOLOL

 

[FredJacket]

The governor of Michigan threatens to revoke the license of any doctor who prescribes chloroquine. Democratic Nevada Gov. Stephen Sisolak signed an emergency order Tuesday barring the use of the anti-malaria drugs chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine for treating coronavirus patients who have not been admitted to a hospital. Since when does ANY politician know more than a doctor?

According to this article "barring" is wrong word. It is hard to keep up with ground truth these days. I'm not saying this is actually ground truth either. I hate idea governors are dictating prescription drugs... but this is a significant difference than "barring" a drug IMO.. under the circumstances.

https://m.lasvegassun.com/news/2020/mar/24/sisolak-bars-malaria-drugs-for-coronavirus-patient/