Coronavirus Thread

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The death in Placer County CA was a man who got sick on a Mexican Riviera cruise (Grand Princess), debarked in San Francisco on 2/21 & didn't get medical care until just a couple of days ago. How the hell do you get sick on a cruise & not tell the medical staff? How the hell do you let yourself come through the port of San Fran and not tell somebody? Complete negligence on the part of that passenger and his traveling companion.
Although, I guess we should be more aware of things now, in light of the virus, I figure most people are like me and just don't worry about what appears, at least initially, to be simple cold symptoms. Are we now supposed to get tested every time we get the sniffles or cough a few times?
 

GT_EE78

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Although, I guess we should be more aware of things now, in light of the virus, I figure most people are like me and just don't worry about what appears, at least initially, to be simple cold symptoms. Are we now supposed to get tested every time we get the sniffles or cough a few times?
That's a good question. I haven't read anything regarding who or when one should get tested. I'd guess test resources must remain limited. (or we'd already be hearing about it)The 15,00o test kits that got sent out over the weekend isn't a lot for 300 mil people. That may be ramped up since by an order of magnitude . Info seems irregular
 

jwsavhGT

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It's long but interesting. This is a blogger from my neck of the woods.
http://www.enkiops.org/blog/

Dissecting COVID19 Statistics: what they really mean.
Posted on March 5, 2020
Everybody in the media seems to have become experts in epidemiology and statistics, talking about cases, R0, and mortality rates. Here’s what all these numbers mean to you: Not much. Wash your hands, don’t touch your face, don’t freak out. The best sources of practical information are at the CDC web site, and the DHS/FEMA “ready.gov” site. Essentially, these are common sense actions. But, since a 100 word post just isn’t in my nature, here a thousand or so more words on what we seem to know about COVID19 statistics from a public policy, economics, and emergency management perspective.

If you’re curious, my background on this comes from doing post-disaster disease spread and biological warfare studies. As an aside, I’m perfectly comfortable around nukes or chemical weapons; I’m afraid of bio-agents, if that tells you anything. I’m not an MD or epidemiologist, but I use data from those fields to create impact estimates. I posed an interesting question to someone who is an expert in those fields. If we did not have the ability to do genetic testing on this virus and identify it as a new strain, would we have noticed it at this point? The answer is complex, but it seems maybe not. Let’s crunch some numbers.

Globally, on average there are 389 thousand deaths due to respiratory complications from influenza. The 2009 influenza pandemic had an all-cause mortality rate of 9.2 per 100,000 in China, but was several times higher in other countries, 10 to 20 per 100,000. The current mortality rate for COVID-19 in China is around 5.1 per 100,000 at worst. So even if they are being deceptive over the total rate, it could be twice as high and still not terribly unusual. The end result is that while they would never admit it for political reasons, it may well be that by the time the quarantines were put in place, it had already spread, and China damaged their economy (and the world for that matter) for no good reason. Other countries are reacting to what China did as much as to the direct threat of the disease itself. And those measures may well have a lot more to do with China’s internal politics than the virus.

What about those mortality rates – WHO says 3.4%, CDC said 16% in “older populations.” Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, and colleagues wrote an editorial in the New England Journal of Medicine and said it was likely “under 1%.” What should you make of that? Nothing – see the first paragraph above ! The bottom line is all of these statistics are based on “cases” – and that definition is really sketchy. Again, a mortality rate is dependent on two variables: the number of deaths (the “numerator” in math language), and the population at risk (the “denominator”). We sort of know the numerator because people dying with the right symptoms are being tested. But we have NO IDEA what the denominator is. Only a few thousand people in the US have actually been tested. Right now testing is so confused that we really don’t have good numbers. But given what we know, and have seen in other countries including China, the rates are well below 1% – and are likely “just” fractions of a percent.

That’s not to say COVID19 isn’t a problem – but it is apparently on the same scale of threat (maybe even a bit less) than influenza. And given the bias towards more severe respiratory issues for those hit hard by it, the health care community is right to be concerned about ICU resources. But saying “on par with influenza” raises another issue: we really don’t take influenza as seriously as we should. It kills tens of thousands of people every year, and we could prevent many of those by taking simple precautions. Under 40% of people get flu shots. How hard is it to properly wash your hands? And don’t get me started on our society that encourages (even demands) that people go to work or send their kids to school sick. If a normal flu season (much less a pandemic season like 2009 or even 2017) was given the publicity that the COVID19 is being given, people would be in a continual state of panic (or numb to it).

Which leaves me where I was two weeks ago: the panic will likely be far worse than the pandemic. The economic damage being done, and that will likely be done, by politicians wanting to get out in front of public opinion and “do something” may be turning a manageable situation into a catastrophe. To paraphrase something I heard astronaut John Young say, “there are very few situations you can’t make worse by doing something.”

Bottom line: We really do need to try to limit the spread, especially to vulnerable populations like those over 65 and those with health problems. But we know how to do that. It’s not glamorous, and doesn’t require massive government action, quarantines or wrecking our economy. It’s very simple: good hygiene.
 

armeck

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ESWps68XYAAYEyq
 

RonJohn

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It's long but interesting. This is a blogger from my neck of the woods.
http://www.enkiops.org/blog/

Dissecting COVID19 Statistics: what they really mean.
Posted on March 5, 2020
Everybody in the media seems to have become experts in epidemiology and statistics, talking about cases, R0, and mortality rates. Here’s what all these numbers mean to you: Not much. Wash your hands, don’t touch your face, don’t freak out. The best sources of practical information are at the CDC web site, and the DHS/FEMA “ready.gov” site. Essentially, these are common sense actions. But, since a 100 word post just isn’t in my nature, here a thousand or so more words on what we seem to know about COVID19 statistics from a public policy, economics, and emergency management perspective.

If you’re curious, my background on this comes from doing post-disaster disease spread and biological warfare studies. As an aside, I’m perfectly comfortable around nukes or chemical weapons; I’m afraid of bio-agents, if that tells you anything. I’m not an MD or epidemiologist, but I use data from those fields to create impact estimates. I posed an interesting question to someone who is an expert in those fields. If we did not have the ability to do genetic testing on this virus and identify it as a new strain, would we have noticed it at this point? The answer is complex, but it seems maybe not. Let’s crunch some numbers.

Globally, on average there are 389 thousand deaths due to respiratory complications from influenza. The 2009 influenza pandemic had an all-cause mortality rate of 9.2 per 100,000 in China, but was several times higher in other countries, 10 to 20 per 100,000. The current mortality rate for COVID-19 in China is around 5.1 per 100,000 at worst. So even if they are being deceptive over the total rate, it could be twice as high and still not terribly unusual. The end result is that while they would never admit it for political reasons, it may well be that by the time the quarantines were put in place, it had already spread, and China damaged their economy (and the world for that matter) for no good reason. Other countries are reacting to what China did as much as to the direct threat of the disease itself. And those measures may well have a lot more to do with China’s internal politics than the virus.

What about those mortality rates – WHO says 3.4%, CDC said 16% in “older populations.” Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, and colleagues wrote an editorial in the New England Journal of Medicine and said it was likely “under 1%.” What should you make of that? Nothing – see the first paragraph above ! The bottom line is all of these statistics are based on “cases” – and that definition is really sketchy. Again, a mortality rate is dependent on two variables: the number of deaths (the “numerator” in math language), and the population at risk (the “denominator”). We sort of know the numerator because people dying with the right symptoms are being tested. But we have NO IDEA what the denominator is. Only a few thousand people in the US have actually been tested. Right now testing is so confused that we really don’t have good numbers. But given what we know, and have seen in other countries including China, the rates are well below 1% – and are likely “just” fractions of a percent.

That’s not to say COVID19 isn’t a problem – but it is apparently on the same scale of threat (maybe even a bit less) than influenza. And given the bias towards more severe respiratory issues for those hit hard by it, the health care community is right to be concerned about ICU resources. But saying “on par with influenza” raises another issue: we really don’t take influenza as seriously as we should. It kills tens of thousands of people every year, and we could prevent many of those by taking simple precautions. Under 40% of people get flu shots. How hard is it to properly wash your hands? And don’t get me started on our society that encourages (even demands) that people go to work or send their kids to school sick. If a normal flu season (much less a pandemic season like 2009 or even 2017) was given the publicity that the COVID19 is being given, people would be in a continual state of panic (or numb to it).

Which leaves me where I was two weeks ago: the panic will likely be far worse than the pandemic. The economic damage being done, and that will likely be done, by politicians wanting to get out in front of public opinion and “do something” may be turning a manageable situation into a catastrophe. To paraphrase something I heard astronaut John Young say, “there are very few situations you can’t make worse by doing something.”

Bottom line: We really do need to try to limit the spread, especially to vulnerable populations like those over 65 and those with health problems. But we know how to do that. It’s not glamorous, and doesn’t require massive government action, quarantines or wrecking our economy. It’s very simple: good hygiene.

That is an interesting question about genetic testing. If we were not able to tell that this is a new strain, would it cause as much panic?
 

slugboy

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New cases in Nashville, Vegas, etc.

If it gets loose in Vegas, it could be bad. Lots of travelers, lots of restaurants and service workers, and lots of people who can’t afford to take a day off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Techster

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If it gets loose in Vegas, it could be bad. Lots of travelers, lots of restaurants and service workers, and lots of people who can’t afford to take a day off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas....

False. STDs, and now the Corona virus will now follow you out of Vegas.
 

Deleted member 2897

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On a somewhat silly side note, 0.01% of the Icelandic population has been diagnosed with Coronavirus. If that rate were present here, we'd have over 3 million people with the virus.
 

CuseJacket

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The death in Placer County CA was a man who got sick on a Mexican Riviera cruise (Grand Princess), debarked in San Francisco on 2/21 & didn't get medical care until just a couple of days ago. How the hell do you get sick on a cruise & not tell the medical staff? How the hell do you let yourself come through the port of San Fran and not tell somebody? Complete negligence on the part of that passenger and his traveling companion.
Bingo. Just like many cases of flu, measles and others, the real root cause of death is negligence in treating otherwise harmless illnesses. But there's no code for that in the database.

(Not saying that applies in all cases e.g., elderly and immunocompromised)
 

BuzzStone

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On a somewhat silly side note, 0.01% of the Icelandic population has been diagnosed with Coronavirus. If that rate were present here, we'd have over 3 million people with the virus.

That is a very interesting comparison. We will know in a few weeks how many are diagnosed with it here in the US
 

Deleted member 2897

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That is a very interesting comparison. We will know in a few weeks how many are diagnosed with it here in the US

20 more diagnosed in the US so far today, including the Pensacola area. Looking globally, I see another 20% sequential increase in diagnosis day over day in most of Europe (UK 20%, Germany 20%, France 30%, Spain 25%). Iran had 500 new diagnoses yesterday. Italy has doubled to 4,000 in less than a week. South Korea cracked 6,000.

China (if the data is accurate) has hardly budged in the last 2 weeks in terms of new cases. So that may be what to look for - about 2 months of runaway spread, then a plateau?
 

RonJohn

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20 more diagnosed in the US so far today, including the Pensacola area. Looking globally, I see another 20% sequential increase in diagnosis day over day in most of Europe (UK 20%, Germany 20%, France 30%, Spain 25%). Iran had 500 new diagnoses yesterday. Italy has doubled to 4,000 in less than a week. South Korea cracked 6,000.

China (if the data is accurate) has hardly budged in the last 2 weeks in terms of new cases. So that may be what to look for - about 2 months of runaway spread, then a plateau?

There is no possible way to determine if the increase is an accurate picture of the spread of the disease, or if it is an indication of the spread of detection of the disease.(accurately tracking the disease itself or only tracking the availability of test kits) It is possible that there are hundreds of thousands of cases in the US already, but people without major symptoms aren't reacting. Even people with major symptoms but no recent travel being treated for flu and not being tested for COVID-19.

The data, while it can be interesting, is not an accurate picture of how many have the virus today because not 100% of people are tested. It also isn't an accurate picture of how fast the virus is spreading because as more tests are available, more people will show up as infected.
 

Deleted member 2897

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There is no possible way to determine if the increase is an accurate picture of the spread of the disease, or if it is an indication of the spread of detection of the disease.(accurately tracking the disease itself or only tracking the availability of test kits) It is possible that there are hundreds of thousands of cases in the US already, but people without major symptoms aren't reacting. Even people with major symptoms but no recent travel being treated for flu and not being tested for COVID-19.

The data, while it can be interesting, is not an accurate picture of how many have the virus today because not 100% of people are tested. It also isn't an accurate picture of how fast the virus is spreading because as more tests are available, more people will show up as infected.

Right, but its the best we've got. It may have a delay, because we're effectively reporting where we were maybe 1-2 weeks ago, but it is what it is.
 

GT_EE78

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On a somewhat silly side note, 0.01% of the Icelandic population has been diagnosed with Coronavirus. If that rate were present here, we'd have over 3 million people with the virus.
On most days I would have guessed that 1% of 300 million = 3 million
i think you meant 30K
 

BuzzStone

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I work for a large German company and we have suspended almost all travel in and out of all of our plants across the globe. Germany doubling their cases overnight has really changed the outlook for us as a company.
 
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