Coaching Carousel 5 - You have to look through the rain to see the rainbow

[slugboy]

Here's a bit of GT staff-agnostic info. There's a bigger picture issue that needs to be solved for the long-term, rather than the here & now.

@Peacone36 : I wouldn’t want you to tell me specifically who you polled, or give up too much confidentiality, but was it other people like you that watch other programs, or people in athletic programs, or AAU people?
The results make sense to me; I’m just curious where it comes from.



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[dtm1997]

@Peacone36 : I wouldn’t want you to tell me specifically who you polled, or give up too much confidentiality, but was it other people like you that watch other programs, or people in athletic programs, or AAU people?
The results make sense to me; I’m just curious where it comes from.



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Not to speak for him, but he's mentioned to me separately that all three of those categories were covered.

 

[Fatmike91]

Here's a bit of GT staff-agnostic info. There's a bigger picture issue that needs to be solved for the long-term, rather than the here & now.

This shouldn’t be that hard to solve. This profile leads to hiring a young up and coming coach.

If we have some success we pay more.

If we can’t pay then our successful coach gets poached and instead of paying multiple layers of buyouts for 10 years we get a clean start (and maybe some cash) and do it again.

Still rooting for Pastner but rooting for no more buyouts above all else.

/

 

[Vespidae]

This shouldn’t be that hard to solve. This profile leads to hiring a young up and coming coach.

If we have some success we pay more.

If we can’t pay then our successful coach gets poached and instead of paying multiple layers of buyouts for 10 years we get a clean start (and maybe some cash) and do it again.

Still rooting for Pastner but rooting for no more buyouts above all else.

/

This was the recipe for Cremins. Cremins had McGuire who showed him how to recruit in NY.

I wonder if Pastner has even spoken to Cremins, much less, asked for help. Josh is a nice guy, but his version of a basketball program is as exciting as a dish rag.

 

[dtm1997]

This was the recipe for Cremins. Cremins had McGuire who showed him how to recruit in NY.

I wonder if Pastner has even spoken to Cremins, much less, asked for help. Josh is a nice guy, but his version of a basketball program is as exciting as a dish rag.

Coach Cremins did great things at GT, but let's not forget how things ended for him at GT with several recruiting missteps as the college hoops landscape changed around him.

Also, he's been around the program plenty. That doesn't mean he's the be all, end all of coaching mentoring.

 

[Vespidae]

. That doesn't mean he's the be all, end all of coaching mentoring.

I don’t think I made that assertion. But that’s fine. I made my point. Feel free to disagree.

 

[dtm1997]

This shouldn’t be that hard to solve. This profile leads to hiring a young up and coming coach.

If we have some success we pay more.

If we can’t pay then our successful coach gets poached and instead of paying multiple layers of buyouts for 10 years we get a clean start (and maybe some cash) and do it again.

Still rooting for Pastner but rooting for no more buyouts above all else.

/

Program Budget does not equal head coach's salary. I say that agreeing with the idea that, next go around, we hire a young, up & coming coach that potentially uses us as a stepping stone

To attract that coach though, what about the ancillary resources & facilities we need to make the job attractive?

• Competitive budget for bench coaches, as well as support staff
• Locker room & players lounge improvements (This one is actually on the way)
• Higher recruiting budget, including private planes to cover more recruiting area and identify/scout more high academic players
• GT Athletics support staff expansion, resulting in dedicated staff & resources for strength & conditioning, nutrition, mental health, expanded tutoring, marketing/branding/social media

These aren't even things that would qualify as the bells & whistles some think spoil "S/As with their sense of entitlement". These are some of the things that are needed to make the job attractive to a coach, let alone higher end recruits.

GT has this history & pride in doing "more with less". That mentality is a dinosaur going extinct at this point. Doing more with less has been replaced with "doing more with average" and we're below average.

So tell me... how do we solve the biggest negative of "program budget"? By kicking in as much as we can when the hat gets passed around, but too many fans seem to think that's not their problem to deal with.

 

[dtm1997]

I don’t think I made that assertion. But that’s fine. I made my point. Feel free to disagree.

The question to ask/point to make - Has Pastner sought advice on what he can do to improve himself and, in turn, results?

I certainly agree with asking that.

I'd have expected a broader frame on which to lay that point rather than a post that myopically focused on Cremins. Especially, when considering two of Josh's mentors are highly accomplished coaches, Lute Olsen & John Calipari.

 

[Vespidae]

So tell me... how do we solve the biggest negative of "program budget"? By kicking in as much as we can when the hat gets passed around, but too many fans seem to think that's not their problem to deal with.

I’m an engineer. So I think about systems and processes to manage things. I ran several companies. And I ran two United Way campaigns, setting records for both, at two different publicly held companies.

I say that because there a good, systematic ways to raise money vs. random one time marathons.

I’ve opined on this before. Tech has no organized effort “at scale” to raise money. If Tech would put the systems in place, then fans could be pulled into the effort. But until Tech organizes an effort, I think we’re just not going to be very effective.

Tech HAS done this on the academic side.

I think TStan is going after the major donors and that’s probably right. But a longer term strategy would include more small donation contributions which would provide a certain stability to the plan.

BTW .. I’m a STH and donated to AT for years. No one needs to prod me. But I do think GTAA needs to provide the process and then ... the fans need to provide the help.

 

[Vespidae]

The question to ask/point to make - Has Pastner sought advice on what he can do to improve himself and, in turn, results?

I certainly agree with asking that.

I'd have expected a broader frame on which to lay that point rather than a post that myopically focused on Cremins. Especially, when considering two of Josh's mentors are highly accomplished coaches, Lute Olsen & John Calipari.

My point on Cremins was specific to Cremins. Why? He turned to his mentor, Frank McGuire who in turn, helped him open up recruiting, esp in NY.

If Pastner has mentors, great. But are they helping him just in game planning? Or helping him with a pipeline? I don’t know the answer to that.

Again, I personally think Josh has a very boring approach that isn’t working. We had an exciting program at one time. What worked and why?

 

[lv20gt]

This shouldn’t be that hard to solve. This profile leads to hiring a young up and coming coach.

If we have some success we pay more.

If we can’t pay then our successful coach gets poached and instead of paying multiple layers of buyouts for 10 years we get a clean start (and maybe some cash) and do it again.

Still rooting for Pastner but rooting for no more buyouts above all else.

/

Sure it isn't hard to solve when you can throw out half baked ideas with no recourse for being wrong.

Both your scenarios assume success. If there isn't success, which is the most likely outcome, we are in the same position as we are now, because your pipe dream of no buyouts is just that. That is just not reality.

The last time around we tried the up and coming rout going after Bryce Drew. Unfortunately we were outbid by Vandy who reportedly gave him a top 15 contract in terms of average annual pay. Up and coming coaches are not the cheap route that people think. More realistically, the cheap option isn't an up and coming coach. It's an relatively inexperienced low tier program coach who we would hope we are getting before they go on to become one of those up and coming coaches. That's not something that anyone should look forward to. Oh, and for what it's worth, Drew was fired after 3 years and a winless conference record after year 3, so that path is both expensive and not a sure fire upgrade.

The fact is, there isn't a good solution when you don't have money. And there is no reason to make a move right now unless we have a for sure upgrade lined up. We had to make a move with gregory because he was losing the entire team and bringing in a 2 man class. We've not reached that point with Pastner where keeping him is going to do more long term damage to the program. If he completely whiffs on the next recruiting class maybe, but we aren't there yet. Otherwise, making a move just to make a move changes nothing.

We had an exciting program at one time. What worked and why?

What worked was the way Cremins recruited and the why was because it was before the era of players leaving early consistently. He could bring in the top players, and reliably get 3 years out of them. Unfortunately things changed, and there is a reason why Cremins only made 1 NCAAT in his last 7 years here. Hell, compare his last 4 years here to Pastner's 4 years and they'll probably be similar.

 

[Vespidae]

What worked was the way Cremins recruited and the why was because it was before the era of players leaving early consistently. He could bring in the top players, and reliably get 3 years out of them. Unfortunately things changed, and there is a reason why Cremins only made 1 NCAAT in his last 7 years here. Hell, compare his last 4 years here to Pastner's 4 years and they'll probably be similar.

Fair enough. But I still feel like Tech BB is as exciting as a dish rag. I suppose we’re stuck with Josh.

 

[Bogey]

Sure it isn't hard to solve when you can throw out half baked ideas with no recourse for being wrong.

Both your scenarios assume success. If there isn't success, which is the most likely outcome, we are in the same position as we are now, because your pipe dream of no buyouts is just that. That is just not reality.

The last time around we tried the up and coming rout going after Bryce Drew. Unfortunately we were outbid by Vandy who reportedly gave him a top 15 contract in terms of average annual pay. Up and coming coaches are not the cheap route that people think. More realistically, the cheap option isn't an up and coming coach. It's an relatively inexperienced low tier program coach who we would hope we are getting before they go on to become one of those up and coming coaches. That's not something that anyone should look forward to. Oh, and for what it's worth, Drew was fired after 3 years and a winless conference record after year 3, so that path is both expensive and not a sure fire upgrade.

The fact is, there isn't a good solution when you don't have money. And there is no reason to make a move right now unless we have a for sure upgrade lined up. We had to make a move with gregory because he was losing the entire team and bringing in a 2 man class. We've not reached that point with Pastner where keeping him is going to do more long term damage to the program. If he completely whiffs on the next recruiting class maybe, but we aren't there yet. Otherwise, making a move just to make a move changes nothing.




What worked was the way Cremins recruited and the why was because it was before the era of players leaving early consistently. He could bring in the top players, and reliably get 3 years out of them. Unfortunately things changed, and there is a reason why Cremins only made 1 NCAAT in his last 7 years here. Hell, compare his last 4 years here to Pastner's 4 years and they'll probably be similar.

This!

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[LibertyTurns]

GT has this history & pride in doing "more with less". That mentality is a dinosaur going extinct at this point. Doing more with less has been replaced with "doing more with average" and we're below average.

Many people fail to understand that college sports are a business. They think this is somehow a labor of love & business principles do not apply. They could not be more wrong. I’d like to know how they’d like it if their customers demanded the highest quality in their product, yet weren't willing to pay for it; their bosses demanded top performance, but provided meager at best resources for manpower and low levels of support?

Biggest problem GT consistently has is we often correctly identify the problem, we correctly identify the solution, but then as in most flailing businesses never make progress towards implementing the solutions.

We have trouble fundraising for our sports programs. Why? Well it could be many things, but it’s definitely not a fanbase without money. Maybe we don’t know how to fundraise? We can for academics so why not for sports? I think we’ve never hired the right people to get the job done. Maybe the academic side of the house pressures the AA to no compete?

If I was calling the shots I’d see who fundraises effectively & hire away their #2 or their #3. Maybe I’d steal other staff from 3-4 places and get enough talent in here to get it done. Same thing for our damn branding. If you can’t do it yourself, well go seek out talent & get it in here. Just because we’re smart damn people doesn’t mean we’re smart at everything.

 

[Buzzbomb]

Not sure if many of you are old enough to remember this-
AD Homer Rice told us later on, CBC was the third choice/contact.
Bob Weinhauer, Gary Williams(I think he was at American U., at that time), were both not interested in the job. We were 1-27 in the ACC under Morrison.

 

[YlJacket]

Muck this concept of young and up and coming. That is CJP. With the ACC network and reasonable fundraising by TStan it is time to commit to basketball after next year. We need to find the next Buzz Williams who is unhappy at his current gig and give him what he needs to make a move

5 year rebuilds suck and aren't necessary. I want to act like a legit ACC basketball program

 

[TheSilasSonRising]

Curious, as it may relate to finances, what is going on with former Women’s HC?

 

[684Bee]

I’m an engineer. So I think about systems and processes to manage things. I ran several companies. And I ran two United Way campaigns, setting records for both, at two different publicly held companies.

I say that because there a good, systematic ways to raise money vs. random one time marathons.

I’ve opined on this before. Tech has no organized effort “at scale” to raise money. If Tech would put the systems in place, then fans could be pulled into the effort. But until Tech organizes an effort, I think we’re just not going to be very effective.

Tech HAS done this on the academic side.

I think TStan is going after the major donors and that’s probably right. But a longer term strategy would include more small donation contributions which would provide a certain stability to the plan.

BTW .. I’m a STH and donated to AT for years. No one needs to prod me. But I do think GTAA needs to provide the process and then ... the fans need to provide the help.

I agree and this is being worked on. Need GT fans to get ready to contribute.

 

[Bogey]

I agree and this is being worked on. Need GT fans to get ready to contribute.

CJP ain't going anywhere for at least 2 years when we are smack in the middle of a major rebuild in our major sport, in my opinion. His 2021 recruiting class will be huge with regards to his future at Tech. If he can put together another good class back to back, and show improvement on the court, I see no reason to try to switch horses and possibly lose the momentum that he has begun to bring to our program.

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[WrongShadeOfGold]

CJP ain't going anywhere for at least 2 years when we are smack in the middle of a major rebuild in our major sport, in my opinion. His 2021 recruiting class will be huge with regards to his future at Tech. If he can put together another good class back to back, and show improvement on the court, I see no reason to try to switch horses and possibly lose the momentum that he has begun to bring to our program.

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Just out of curiosity, where is this momentum you speak of? We are worse than last year with essentially the same but more experienced players. It sounds like you are putting a lot of eggs in the basket of an unproven 7 foot high schooler and Vernon Maxwell's son. I sure hope you are right but I'm just not seeing it.