ACC Discussion 2019-20

[slugboy]

That no call on out of bounds off UNC was a game changer. Could have easily called a foul. That was one heck of a game to watch . UNC will be a tough out now with Anthony back. He was on his game last night. Fun to watch Jones and Anthony go at it and play at such a high level.

Even if not a foul, i think it should have been called out on Duke. Why do we have replay when we can’t even fix calls like that?

Here’s a tweet with a short video

@bubbaprog: The ACC stcking with this ball going out of bounds due entirely to actions of North Carolina players


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LibertyTurns]

Even if not a foul, i think it should have been called out on Duke. Why do we have replay when we can’t even fix calls like that?

Here’s a tweet with a short video

@bubbaprog: The ACC stcking with this ball going out of bounds due entirely to actions of North Carolina players


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Typical Dook BS call. What else is new? You can see the looks in the faces on the bench they thought that was the end, but ACC refs gift them another break.

 

[g0lftime]

And I used to think Lenny Wirst was bad. TV Teddy hasn't met a camera he doesn't like.

 

[g0lftime]

Most of the experts are saying the ACC only gets 5 teams into the tourney this year. Duke, Louisville, and FSU obvious. After that maybe UVA and ND. BC NCSU Syracuse??? Should have several in NIT. ACCT could produce an upset champion team to get in if they get hot. UNC ??

 

[Deleted member 2897]

The Duke vs UNCheat games are always the best to watch. You almost always get dueling Refs and not passive ones - they’re so used to throwing games for those 2 teams.

 

[tsrich]

It would be the most NCState thing ever if UNC goes on a run and makes the NCAAs and State doesn't

 

[g0lftime]

UNC probably would need to win the ACC tournament or at least go on a win streak to close out and make ACC finals to make NCAA. They are like us right now and not in the conversation. They have more skilled players and Anthony is now back and he is arguably the best player in the league. Tournament becomes guard play and he fits that for them. The NIT is more likely gor them if they get above 500.
T. Jones for Duke is in the same category as Anthony. Duke is now projected as a 2 seed.

 

[LibertyTurns]

Duke is now projected as a 2 seed.

Yeah I hope they go to hell also. Bastards every singe one of them. Dook = mutt of the north

 

[Deleted member 2897]

4th place in the ACC right now is 7-5. There is absolutely zero reason why that couldn't have been us at this point. So sad to see wasted opportunities pass us by.

 

[orientalnc]

4th place in the ACC right now is 7-5. There is absolutely zero reason why that couldn't have been us at this point. So sad to see wasted opportunities pass us by.

I am not sure it was ever an opportunity. We're not a good team on offense and our defense has not been as consistent as it needs to be. Plus, we can be a turnover machine at times.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

I am not sure it was ever an opportunity. We're not a good team on offense and our defense has not been as consistent as it needs to be. Plus, we can be a turnover machine at times.

I just looked up the ACC stats on turnovers - we have 384 turnovers this year - that is FIFTY (50) higher than then next team. No kidding. We are 15% worse than the second to last team. The top half of the conference (8 teams) are more than 100 turnovers less than us. That's almost half the rate of turnovers we average - when you equate that to points off turnovers and points lost from turnovers (average points per possession), that's somewhere around an 18 point handicap per game. That is just atrocious.

 

[YlJacket]

Turnovers come from either the other team's defense or you asking your team to do something they are not capable of. Since the averages now include enough data to normalize the results over all the defenses in the ACC on a comparative basis, it pretty much has to be us asking players to do something they can't do or can't do consistently well

So it is either talent or scheme or both. Since I do think our starting 5 is middle of the road ACC talent I come back to them being asked to do things that cause TOs. Using DeVoe as a primary penetrator,. Having Mosses and Usher get the ball too far from the basket before they try to attack. A general lack of ball movement to get defenses moving instead of set. Easy to add to the list.

We have offensive players who are good not great and need help

 

[orientalnc]

Turnovers come from either the other team's defense or you asking your team to do something they are not capable of. Since the averages now include enough data to normalize the results over all the defenses in the ACC on a comparative basis, it pretty much has to be us asking players to do something they can't do or can't do consistently well

So it is either talent or scheme or both. Since I do think our starting 5 is middle of the road ACC talent I come back to them being asked to do things that cause TOs. Using DeVoe as a primary penetrator,. Having Mosses and Usher get the ball too far from the basket before they try to attack. A general lack of ball movement to get defenses moving instead of set. Easy to add to the list.

We have offensive players who are good not great and need help

I think you are overlooking an important cause of turnovers. Some players get careless with ball in certain situations because of overconfidence in their skills. As a coach, you want your players pushing the edge of their ability. I do not think there is anything wrong with our offensive scheme. Our guys are just not as skilled as I thought.

 

[YlJacket]

I don't think at this point in the season you can say it is simply getting careless in certain situations. It is systemic to be that far above the norm - or in fact anyone else. You can certainly have a different opinion on what the systemic issue are or may be - but it is not a random event or individual carelessness.

 

[GTbball2016]

It’s all about coaching. Take a look at ND under Brey. They are typically near the leaders in the country in terms of fewest turnovers per game. You can’t tell me that Alvarado and the other guards are inherently sloppier than Hubb is. Brey just puts his players in a better position to succeed on offense.

 

[lv20gt]

So it is either talent or scheme or both. Since I do think our starting 5 is middle of the road ACC talent I come back to them being asked to do things that cause TOs. Using DeVoe as a primary penetrator,. Having Mosses and Usher get the ball too far from the basket before they try to attack. A general lack of ball movement to get defenses moving instead of set. Easy to add to the list.

I don't think it's really enough to say that the starting 5 has middle of the road talent so it must be something else. I think you can have a talented player who also is prone to turning the ball over for one reason or another. Banks is tremendously talented defensively, but he doesn't have good hands on offense and sometimes lacks awareness needed to make the right play quickly enough getting him into trouble. Moses has proven to be ACC level but he is still prone to bone headed plays or getting himself into bad situations and walking/charging. Usher is similar and Devoe's biggest weakness is taking care of the ball against help D.

In general, I think turnovers are the price we are paying for certain aspects like Bank's D and Moses' production. It's not that only things that contribute to our issues but I do think it's a big reason we struggle with turnovers.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

I looked up minutes per turnover, to try and equalize the numbers and see if certain players have issues with turnovers more than others. The top like 6 guys are all within 13-16 minutes played per turnover. So its not like 1 or 2 guys that have a problem with turnovers (although that can vary game to game). Its really a team problem.

 

[orientalnc]

It’s all about coaching. Take a look at ND under Brey. They are typically near the leaders in the country in terms of fewest turnovers per game. You can’t tell me that Alvarado and the other guards are inherently sloppier than Hubb is. Brey just puts his players in a better position to succeed on offense.

I will agree that system does have a role. ND attempts 10 more 3-points shots per game than GT. We are trying to force the ball inside a lot because we do not have the shooters to do otherwise. But, we cannot play ND's system with our players.

 

[YlJacket]

I don't think it's really enough to say that the starting 5 has middle of the road talent so it must be something else. I think you can have a talented player who also is prone to turning the ball over for one reason or another. Banks is tremendously talented defensively, but he doesn't have good hands on offense and sometimes lacks awareness needed to make the right play quickly enough getting him into trouble. Moses has proven to be ACC level but he is still prone to bone headed plays or getting himself into bad situations and walking/charging. Usher is similar and Devoe's biggest weakness is taking care of the ball against help D.

In general, I think turnovers are the price we are paying for certain aspects like Bank's D and Moses' production. It's not that only things that contribute to our issues but I do think it's a big reason we struggle with turnovers.

Parse it a little bit - my point in saying they are middle of the road ACC talent is that they are not simply incapable of playing at this level and therefore are simply going to turn it over as part of not really belonging in the ACC. We have players that like a lot of other middle of the road talent ACC teams should be able to keep their TOs at or around the norm.

Beyond that I actually agree with your points - like other teams our guys have strengths and weaknesses. That means they have to be in position to use their strengths and minimize the times they show their weaknesses. TOs are part of that. To use your example - don't give the ball to Moses way out on the 3 point line and ask him to drive to the basket - he will turn it over. Make sure he gets it around the foul line or short corner where he can make one dribble and shoot. I also agree with your comment about Devoe - don't ask him to be a primary driver especially against a set defense where there is a lot of help. Move the ball a lot more and there is less help if/when he tries to drive. Agree Banks doesn't have good hands - then why do you start the year with him as a primary playmaker at the high post? Make him nothing but a rim runner.

I think we are seeing the same things. The issues then to me come back to system/approach/coaching/whatever word you want to put in.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

I think our stats outside of turnovers, the play outside of turnovers, our player ratings - however you want to look at it - say that we have the talent to play in the top half of the league. If you go look at the stats in the ACC, you'll notice we're 4th in field goal percentage and 5th in field goal percentage defense. Let that one sink in - BOTH near the top in shooting percentage AND shooting percentage defense. We're 6th in rebounding and 5th in rebounding defense. BOTH in the top 3rd at the same time once again. So our shooting differential and rebounding differential are both around 3rd-4th in the ACC when you combine them together. But we're at the bottom in the conference standings. Why? I've calculated based on the points from turnovers and points lost from turnovers that with our average of turnovers per game, its worth about 10-12 points per game JUST BASED ON HOW FAR ABOVE AVERAGE ON TURNOVERS WE ARE. In other words, if we just had an average number of turnovers - not zero - just average, it would result in a 10-12 point swing in the game in our favor. Said another way, we're spotting every team we play 10-12 points with play like that. Sometimes even worse - like Pitt when we had 22 turnovers - that resulted in an 18 point swing in the game. That's how you can out shoot everyone, out rebound everyone, etc. and yet still lose.