Yet another CPJ vs CGC thread

[Root4GT]

Come on man. Key‘s job is much harder because GT football has become a joke. Heck, the only guy who would even take the job was an alum. And what was one of the first recruiting things Key did? He recruited a stud QB via the portal because the 2 1/2 year starter quit. Those of you who have this belief that the roster inherited by Key is some star studded group are delusional. Key has inherited a DLine with holes, an undersized LB group and if the spring game is any indication a DB group that needs a mountain of work. On offense, we lost our best WR, have about 20 undersized WR’s that are question marks, have an OLine that none of us know if they can even reach the average category and have 2 young QB’s with limited game action because the previous guy handed the job to a kid who should be playing DB in DIII.

I like Key and think he could be a solid head coach, but this roster and entire program has a lot of work to do. Off season optimism is not reality. Cabrera and JBatt’s hugs and kisses are nice but until the roster improves they won’t put points on the scoreboard. Johnson didn‘t need hugs and kisses. He came in from day 1 and forced his will on the team - system change be damned.

I believe over the next 2 seasons as Key changes this program into a successful one that you’ll realize the work he has to put in. Collins inherited a solid program. Key has inherited a total mess.

I agree the roster is below average for an ACC Team. However relative to the Conference the 2019 roster was worse.

I see our best outcome is winning 7 games. I see 5 as the likely number.

In 2019 I thought 5 was the celing. Obviously the Citadel was one of the 5. Abject failure in 2019.

I see this as a better overall team with out the major scheme change issue. Thacker has been the DC for the players whole time at GT. In 2019 it was his first year as a DC.

 

[yeti92]

Since it's often stated how many NFL guys were on the roster when CPJ took over, how many guys on the current roster do y'all think will make an nfl team for at least a season?

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

Didn't Miami miss at least 3 field goals that were not that long. Kept trying different kickers after misses.

Seems like it. As with all things Miami, what you see is usually not what you get.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Seems like it. As with all things Miami, what you see is usually not what you get.

No doubt Miami has a way of helping inferior teams beat them.

There is a strange data point for me about that game, in spite of Miami’s incompetence. I’ve watched the replay a few times and Tech had a solid game plan. The players played fast and seemed to always be in the right place. There was very little confusion. Play calling was good, schemes were well thought out and everybody seemed on the same page.

What happened differently in practice prior to that game that didn’t seem to happen the rest of the season?

To be sure, Miami did their part to lose, but Tech usually was incapable of taking advantage of that in other games.

 

[Ibeeballin]

Since it's often stated how many NFL guys were on the roster when CPJ took over, how many guys on the current roster do y'all think will make an nfl team for at least a season?

Make or drafted?

Drafted: 3-5
LaMiles Brooks, Sylvain, Jordan Williams, Tatum if performs how i expect him

A chance with a breakout season-Douse, Scott, Kennard, Rutherford

 

[grandpa jacket]

These threads are useless, even though i was not satisfied with CPJ he was far better than Collins.

 

[yeti92]

Make or drafted?

Drafted: 3-5
LaMiles Brooks, Sylvain, Jordan Williams, Tatum if performs how i expect him

A chance with a breakout season-Douse, Scott, Kennard, Rutherford

Make, plenty of guys go undrafted and spend a while in the league, and plenty of guys get drafted and are gone real quick. I have a hard time seeing more than 2 or 3 guys on our current roster getting drafted based on past performance, but maybe we will see them all step up this year and show that they are better than the coaching they were previously receiving.

 

[Oldgoldandwhite]

I think the transition didn't have to be as bad as CGC made it out to be. He did everything he could to disconnect from the option identify we had under Johnson, and in doing so, he forced us into an offense that we didn't have personnel for. You could have gone to a more typical Malzahn-type offense with our 2019 personnel (running QB with single option handoffs, 11 personnel, Spread concepts, etc.) and at least not have looked like we never practiced. Not saying we even needed Malzahn, just someone in that vein like Norvell or someone similar.

I agree. A good coach would have adapted the scheme to his personnel. 5 to 6 wins per year based on our schedule, minimum.

 

[jojatk]

Good coaches can make it happen! Johnson took non option players and beat ugag year one and won the ACC second.

Collins was a terrible coach. I'm pretty sure everyone has figured that out by now. CPJ, who I think was a good coach for us for some years and UNARGUABLY an offensive genius, inherited 8 guys who were NFL draft picks. Two of those guys were 1st round picks. Two were 3rd round picks. The other guys who were drafted weren't NFL stars but several hung around for a number of years. So a coach who knew what he was doing also inherited some pretty talented football players and, to his credit, made the most of them and the roster he had. I suspect, though I haven’t gone back to look at all of his teams, that those first two years might have been the most talented teams he ever had from top to bottom and he made great use of the talent.

Collins was a terrible coach and made some poor hiring decisions and also inherited less high-level talent than his predecessor did. I think a better coach could have done better than what Collins did even in spite of the lower number of high level football players. This doesn't mean there weren't some wonderful players on the team when Collins took over. Juanyeh, Tariq, Jordan Mason, Jalen Camp are some examples of football players that even the NFL thought well enough of to draft them or sign them as college free agents. And absolutely we had some other good college football players and, as I said before, a better coach than Collins would have found ways to use their skills better. But I think it's an easier challenge converting a more talented roster into a different system and to win than a less talented roster into a different system and to win. I think we could have won at least 2-3 more games in the first year had Collins been a half-way decent coach.

 

[slugboy]

I’m out on vacation, but there were a couple of responses to one of my earlier posts, so…

• I started on the hot seat list. Part of the challenge that Key faces is that we haven’t had a bowl game in years. People aren’t going to give Key as much slack as they gave Collins. Collins could have won 3-4 games in his first year, 4-5 in his second, and gone bowling in his third year and kept his job—if he’d shown steady improvement
• He did not show improvement
• The expectation for Key is probably about 5 1/2 games—if he wins 5 it’s a slight underachievement and his seat is warm. If he gets bowl eligible, his seat is slightly cool
• Key’s challenge is getting to even this year. Collins needed to get to winning in the second or third year, with steady improvement each year.
• There’s conversations about offense and recruiting, but Collins had a 7 year contract and a lot of built in support for patiently building a team. He just wasn’t any better in year two than year one. All he had to do was get better every year, and he didn’t.The expectations on Key are higher.
• Collins could have won three games in the first year if he looked better at the end of the season, and didn’t lose to the Citadel. He coached for three years after losing to the Citadel. He lost to to Syracuse almost the same way a year later. Key can’t lose to a team like that; Batt will be talking to agents at halftime.
• Collins, based on his own statements, spent his time on offense, even though his history was on defense. The smarter move, and what I would have done in his shoes, is have an offense that doesn’t lose the game and a defense that gets you in games—the Chan Gailey model. The bar to meet wasn’t having an amazing offense, it was having one that was competent. It wasn’t being Kansas City—it was getting first downs.
• When you inherit one of the least effective defenses in the P5, the first thing you do is get the fundamentals right. That’s a first year job. For Collins, he needed year over year improvement in the defense, and to get the defense somewhat decent in year one. Just out of the gutter. The standard was just “get better” on defense every year.
• A concrete example of the difference and the task for Key is the first game. Collins started on national TV against Clemson in a game that was set to be a pounding. Collins job was to start with a moral victory , but not an actual one. He didn’t get the moral victory. Key is an underdog in his first game, but his job is to get an actual win on national TV.

The reason I say Key has a harder job is because he starts much closer to “win now” than Collins did.

The minimum is to continuously get better, though.

 

[Root4GT]

Since it's often stated how many NFL guys were on the roster when CPJ took over, how many guys on the current roster do y'all think will make an nfl team for at least a season?

Hard to tell with all the transfers. Last year it was White and a few “camp” players.

Returners a few “camp” guys but no one drafted on day 1 or 2.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I’m out on vacation, but there were a couple of responses to one of my earlier posts, so…

• I started on the hot seat list. Part of the challenge that Key faces is that we haven’t had a bowl game in years. People aren’t going to give Key as much slack as they gave Collins. Collins could have won 3-4 games in his first year, 4-5 in his second, and gone bowling in his third year and kept his job—if he’d shown steady improvement
• He did not show improvement
• The expectation for Key is probably about 5 1/2 games—if he wins 5 it’s a slight underachievement and his seat is warm. If he gets bowl eligible, his seat is slightly cool
• Key’s challenge is getting to even this year. Collins needed to get to winning in the second or third year, with steady improvement each year.
• There’s conversations about offense and recruiting, but Collins had a 7 year contract and a lot of built in support for patiently building a team. He just wasn’t any better in year two than year one. All he had to do was get better every year, and he didn’t.The expectations on Key are higher.
• Collins could have won three games in the first year if he looked better at the end of the season, and didn’t lose to the Citadel. He coached for three years after losing to the Citadel. He lost to to Syracuse almost the same way a year later. Key can’t lose to a team like that; Batt will be talking to agents at halftime.
• Collins, based on his own statements, spent his time on offense, even though his history was on defense. The smarter move, and what I would have done in his shoes, is have an offense that doesn’t lose the game and a defense that gets you in games—the Chan Gailey model. The bar to meet wasn’t having an amazing offense, it was having one that was competent. It wasn’t being Kansas City—it was getting first downs.
• When you inherit one of the least effective defenses in the P5, the first thing you do is get the fundamentals right. That’s a first year job. For Collins, he needed year over year improvement in the defense, and to get the defense somewhat decent in year one. Just out of the gutter. The standard was just “get better” on defense every year.
• A concrete example of the difference and the task for Key is the first game. Collins started on national TV against Clemson in a game that was set to be a pounding. Collins job was to start with a moral victory , but not an actual one. He didn’t get the moral victory. Key is an underdog in his first game, but his job is to get an actual win on national TV.

The reason I say Key has a harder job is because he starts much closer to “win now” than Collins did.

The minimum is to continuously get better, though.

Yes, expectations are higher for Key.

Collins was cut a lot of slack and he used every bit of that up. He didn’t even have “pretty” losses.

Key will earn some credit for “pretty” loses but his seat will get hot in a hurry without a winning season.

 

[TechPhi97]

I wonder if our OL play would have been better if Key had 100% control. I feel like Collins handcuffed our OL with scheme and practice philosophies. Our OL played significantly better after Brent Key took over as IHC and even better after than when Weinke took over playcalling.

I don't have the ability to comment on the play of the OL before and after Collins' dismissal, but it sure seemed like the team played better and was better prepared after Key took over. I always think there is an emotional bounce up in performance after a big change like a coaching change. However, that emotion only lasts a game or two (think Bowl Games for interim coaches). UNC was Key's 7th game as head coach and we won that one.

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

No doubt Miami has a way of helping inferior teams beat them.

There is a strange data point for me about that game, in spite of Miami’s incompetence. I’ve watched the replay a few times and Tech had a solid game plan. The players played fast and seemed to always be in the right place. There was very little confusion. Play calling was good, schemes were well thought out and everybody seemed on the same page.

What happened differently in practice prior to that game that didn’t seem to happen the rest of the season?

To be sure, Miami did their part to lose, but Tech usually was incapable of taking advantage of that in other games.

It wasn't just Miami, Tech played well as they sometimes do against Miami.

 

[swampsting]

On the roster or recruited by PJ when .... you know who ... took over:
Tre Swilling
Kaleb Oliver
Jaylon King
Gentry Bonds
Bruce Jordan-Swilling
Justice Dingle
James Graham
Jordan Yates.
Those are the four stars, by rivals' estimation. That's eight on the roster as of PJ's departure, December 2018.
The rest?
Charlie Thomas.
Juanyeh Thomas
Tariq Carpenter
Tobias Oliver
Lucas Johnson (or did any one not see what he did for San Diego State in their bowl game two years ago?)
Wesley Walker (playing at UT)
Chico Bennett (starting at UVa)
Jordan Mason
Dontae Smith
Zamari Walton
D'Quan Douse
Brandon Adams (RIP)
And five starting OL that even CBK himself once said they've played a lot of football and that counts for something. And that 6-1, 260 stuff from ... you know who ... was just pure garbage (shocking that ... you know who ... would just make stuff up). Kenny Cooper or Conner Hansen ever look 6-1, 260? Or how about 6-5 Quinney (someone years ago posted Quinney said he was at 260, but that was probably at the end of the season, because it's hard for OL to keep weight up, especially in CPJ's system). It wasn't ... you know who's ... fault about Brandon. Just a tragic occurrence. But ... you know who ... inherited someone who could have been one of the best interior DL we've seen in a long time. Brandon was a beast and often got double teamed.

Give me that team and I'll beat The Citadel like they were a plebe trying to sneak out of the dorm. If you can't win six games with those guys, you can't coach.
Well, we got our answer over the course of three-plus years now, didn't we?
There was talent for ... you know who ....
Our biggest lack of talent wasn't in the helmets. It was in the headsets.

 

[Ibeeballin]

On the roster or recruited by PJ when .... you know who ... took over:
Tre Swilling
Kaleb Oliver
Jaylon King
Gentry Bonds
Bruce Jordan-Swilling
Justice Dingle
James Graham
Jordan Yates.
Those are the four stars, by rivals' estimation. That's eight on the roster as of PJ's departure, December 2018.
The rest?
Charlie Thomas.
Juanyeh Thomas
Tariq Carpenter
Tobias Oliver
Lucas Johnson (or did any one not see what he did for San Diego State in their bowl game two years ago?)
Wesley Walker (playing at UT)
Chico Bennett (starting at UVa)
Jordan Mason
Dontae Smith
Zamari Walton
D'Quan Douse
Brandon Adams (RIP)
And five starting OL that even CBK himself once said they've played a lot of football and that counts for something. And that 6-1, 260 stuff from ... you know who ... was just pure garbage (shocking that ... you know who ... would just make stuff up). Kenny Cooper or Conner Hansen ever look 6-1, 260? Or how about 6-5 Quinney (someone years ago posted Quinney said he was at 260, but that was probably at the end of the season, because it's hard for OL to keep weight up, especially in CPJ's system). It wasn't ... you know who's ... fault about Brandon. Just a tragic occurrence. But ... you know who ... inherited someone who could have been one of the best interior DL we've seen in a long time. Brandon was a beast and often got double teamed.

Give me that team and I'll beat The Citadel like they were a plebe trying to sneak out of the dorm. If you can't win six games with those guys, you can't coach.
Well, we got our answer over the course of three-plus years now, didn't we?
There was talent for ... you know who ....
Our biggest lack of talent wasn't in the helmets. It was in the headsets.

Wasn’t those same guys on the 2017 team?

 

[yeti92]

On the roster or recruited by PJ when .... you know who ... took over:
Tre Swilling
Kaleb Oliver
Jaylon King
Gentry Bonds
Bruce Jordan-Swilling
Justice Dingle
James Graham
Jordan Yates.
Those are the four stars, by rivals' estimation. That's eight on the roster as of PJ's departure, December 2018.
The rest?
Charlie Thomas.
Juanyeh Thomas
Tariq Carpenter
Tobias Oliver
Lucas Johnson (or did any one not see what he did for San Diego State in their bowl game two years ago?)
Wesley Walker (playing at UT)
Chico Bennett (starting at UVa)
Jordan Mason
Dontae Smith
Zamari Walton
D'Quan Douse
Brandon Adams (RIP)
And five starting OL that even CBK himself once said they've played a lot of football and that counts for something. And that 6-1, 260 stuff from ... you know who ... was just pure garbage (shocking that ... you know who ... would just make stuff up). Kenny Cooper or Conner Hansen ever look 6-1, 260? Or how about 6-5 Quinney (someone years ago posted Quinney said he was at 260, but that was probably at the end of the season, because it's hard for OL to keep weight up, especially in CPJ's system). It wasn't ... you know who's ... fault about Brandon. Just a tragic occurrence. But ... you know who ... inherited someone who could have been one of the best interior DL we've seen in a long time. Brandon was a beast and often got double teamed.

Give me that team and I'll beat The Citadel like they were a plebe trying to sneak out of the dorm. If you can't win six games with those guys, you can't coach.
Well, we got our answer over the course of three-plus years now, didn't we?
There was talent for ... you know who ....
Our biggest lack of talent wasn't in the helmets. It was in the headsets.

You forgot Jordan Domineck who has been tearing it up as well.

Wasn’t those same guys on the 2017 team?

No. King, Dingle, Graham, Yates, Charlie, Dontae, Zamari, Juanyeh, Chico, D'Quan, and Walker were all 2018 or 2019 signees.

 

[alagold]

I’m out on vacation, but there were a couple of responses to one of my earlier posts, so…

• I started on the hot seat list. Part of the challenge that Key faces is that we haven’t had a bowl game in years. People aren’t going to give Key as much slack as they gave Collins. Collins could have won 3-4 games in his first year, 4-5 in his second, and gone bowling in his third year and kept his job—if he’d shown steady improvement
• He did not show improvement
• The expectation for Key is probably about 5 1/2 games—if he wins 5 it’s a slight underachievement and his seat is warm. If he gets bowl eligible, his seat is slightly cool
• Key’s challenge is getting to even this year. Collins needed to get to winning in the second or third year, with steady improvement each year.
• There’s conversations about offense and recruiting, but Collins had a 7 year contract and a lot of built in support for patiently building a team. He just wasn’t any better in year two than year one. All he had to do was get better every year, and he didn’t.The expectations on Key are higher.
• Collins could have won three games in the first year if he looked better at the end of the season, and didn’t lose to the Citadel. He coached for three years after losing to the Citadel. He lost to to Syracuse almost the same way a year later. Key can’t lose to a team like that; Batt will be talking to agents at halftime.
• Collins, based on his own statements, spent his time on offense, even though his history was on defense. The smarter move, and what I would have done in his shoes, is have an offense that doesn’t lose the game and a defense that gets you in games—the Chan Gailey model. The bar to meet wasn’t having an amazing offense, it was having one that was competent. It wasn’t being Kansas City—it was getting first downs.
• When you inherit one of the least effective defenses in the P5, the first thing you do is get the fundamentals right. That’s a first year job. For Collins, he needed year over year improvement in the defense, and to get the defense somewhat decent in year one. Just out of the gutter. The standard was just “get better” on defense every year.
• A concrete example of the difference and the task for Key is the first game. Collins started on national TV against Clemson in a game that was set to be a pounding. Collins job was to start with a moral victory , but not an actual one. He didn’t get the moral victory. Key is an underdog in his first game, but his job is to get an actual win on national TV.

The reason I say Key has a harder job is because he starts much closer to “win now” than Collins did.

The minimum is to continuously get better, though.

Key also actually WON games last yr so the expectation is higher now -BUTBUT-he lost a LOT of key guys.He has brought in some talent but putting them (and it) all together is a HUGE task.For him to win 6 would be a LONG shot to me..If he has key injuries--like Douse, ,Brooks, Franklin, Smith, the #1 QB--will hurt badly -3 wins?,

 

[Root4GT]

Key also actually WON games last yr so the expectation is higher now -BUTBUT-he lost a LOT of key guys.He has brought in some talent but putting them (and it) all together is a HUGE task.For him to win 6 would be a LONG shot to me..If he has key injuries--like Douse, ,Brooks, Franklin, Smith, the #1 QB--will hurt badly -3 wins?,

If Key wins 3 games with the current GT roster we are in huge trouble.

We are still below average overall in talent and proven performance. We are pretty close to ACC average though. Just lack really high end players.

 

[Ibeeballin]

If Key wins 3 games with the current GT roster we are in huge trouble.

We are still below average overall in talent and proven performance. We are pretty close to ACC average though. Just lack really high end players.

How many “high-end” players are needed?