Yet another CPJ vs CGC thread

[Heisman's Ghost]

THW the OP for sucking folks into this nonsense. One coach was trash and CPJ was really really good

Well, you should know about CPJ as you played for him.

 

[Roswellgoldmember]

The CPJ to TFG transition didn't have to be so drastic. While that offense didn't have to continue, I could have seen TFG come in and SLOWLY move away from it rather than try to run something that he had ZERO personnel recruited to fit.

The option should have still been in the playback, ditto the rocket toss, but used less. It was completely worthless and childish to line up in that formation and do the "just kidding" joke at the start of his first game.

Again we had to look no further than what Fritz did at GSU just a couple of years before. He took over from Monken and damn near beat our 2014 team in his first year. His 2nd year he lost to uga in overtime.

If this was a top down strategic decision made by the GT power brokers then it was a bad one. Not as bad as leaving the SEC or turning down and offer from the Big 10 but up there.

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

Well, you should know about CPJ as you played for him for which everyone on this board should be grateful .

 

[cpf2001]

This is getting even weirder. What inherited team won 9 gms? The 3 & 5 win season were just as recent as the the 9 win you speak that was inherited. Collins being horrendous has really change some memories of what had occurred before him. We 24-25 since our great OB run with 2 losing seasons and bowl streak ended. Not only were inconsistent on the field but we’re losing battles we should never lose in recruiting as well ala Duke. Changes had to be made. It’s obvious that changes were needed but it is now obvious that TS & CGC shouldn’t have been been guys leading the transition.

I advise some of yall to search the game day post and refresh how bad we were in the trenches on both sides the ball. That is mainly why i find it hard to believe anyway could’ve had that 2019 winning more than 5 gms

I don't disagree with any of this: We were ready for change, and it was a good time for Johnson to retire. But there were more recent successes and wins to play off for both immediate recruiting and enough talent to figure out how to beat the damn Citadel.

But many many coaches could've done better than Collins did, both in year 1 and especially in years 3 and 4. We don't even have to get carried away in year 1: let's just beat the Citadel and win 4. Don't even bother being smarter about scheme or "less of a full transition" or whatever, just don't screw that up.

Is it Stansbury's and big (not big enough?) donors faults for not being able to recruit a better option (heh)? Sure. Let's give them some blame too - everybody managed to take a non-ideal situation and turn it into a disaster. And Stansbury got fired for it, after all.

Now Cabrera/Batt/Key have to dig out of that disaster.

 

[Roswellgoldmember]

***facelalm*** please provide context. This is getting beyond ridiculous. Recruiting services were nowhere near what they are now. Even with how limited the recruiting services were, 03-2007 provided GT 12 Top 250 14-18 only 2 Top 250. If the offer list were different from the guys then to latter 4 yrs. Class size matter as well rankings.

I get all of that and tried to provide context. I know that there were more 2 star diamonds in the rough types back then that panned out. I don't see how you get to 12 top 250 players, I count 6 total 4 stars from those classes on Rivals. Regardless, those classes were ranked what they were ranked and they were full of 2 and 3 stars with light offer list.

 

[Root4GT]

The CPJ to TFG transition didn't have to be so drastic. While that offense didn't have to continue, I could have seen TFG come in and SLOWLY move away from it rather than try to run something that he had ZERO personnel recruited to fit.

The option should have still been in the playback, ditto the rocket toss, but used less. It was completely worthless and childish to line up in that formation and do the "just kidding" joke at the start of his first game.

You miss the point. ADTS wanted the drastic change. Many big backers wanted a major change. Fans were unhappy.

Was there approach a colossal failure. For sure. Looking back and saying we we could have done something different is disingenuous. The decision was made for dramatic and swift change.

ADTS & CGC we’re fired as the decision blew up badly.

Key basically needs to add talent, the Portal seems to have, get better assistant coaches, he has a lot more money and staff so that seems better, get better HS players, that’s TBD, and very importantly he and the staff must be better coaches or all else is meaningless.

 

[Ibeeballin]

I get all of that and tried to provide context. I know that there were more 2 star diamonds in the rough types back then that panned out. I don't see how you get to 12 top 250 players, I count 6 total 4 stars from those classes on Rivals. Regardless, those classes were ranked what they were ranked and they were full of 2 and 3 stars with light offer list.

Rivals 250:

Rashaun grant
Kenny Scott
Calvin Johnson
Jamaal Evans
Nesbitt
Dwyer
Peters
Burnett
Threet
D. Morgan
Claytor

 

[cpf2001]

There’s a list that brings back memories. What ended up going on with Threet transferring anyway? After Gailey’s struggles to develop any other QBs I was initially more optimistic about Threet than Nesbit in the class, coming in as more of a passer, but then only ever saw him as an early enrollee in the spring game for one semester before leaving, IIRC.

 

[Roswellgoldmember]

Rivals 250:

Rashaun grant
Kenny Scott
Calvin Johnson
Jamaal Evans
Nesbitt
Dwyer
Peters
Burnett
Threet
D. Morgan
Claytor

That's basically every 4 star that we signed in that period. I think 2004 is a good example of the Gailey recruiting that I remember at least. We had Cavin, the GT GOAT IMO. Darryl Richard was a high 3 star with a nice offer list but we literally had 18 2 stars in that class. 18 of the 24 total players in that class were 2 stars and randomly clicking I haven't found 1 yet with another P5 offer.

JacketsOnline

The definitive source for all Georgia Tech news.

georgiatech.rivals.com

Is not 18 2 stars in once class also 'context'? The 2005 class had 12 2 stars (out of 18 commits) and no Calvin. Calvin was gone, these were the upper classmen for the team that Johnson inherited.

 

[rfjeff9]

You miss the point. ADTS wanted the drastic change. Many big backers wanted a major change. Fans were unhappy.

Was there approach a colossal failure. For sure. Looking back and saying we we could have done something different is disingenuous. The decision was made for dramatic and swift change.

ADTS & CGC we’re fired as the decision blew up badly.

Key basically needs to add talent, the Portal seems to have, get better assistant coaches, he has a lot more money and staff so that seems better, get better HS players, that’s TBD, and very importantly he and the staff must be better coaches or all else is meaningless.

No I get that he was expected to immediately move from that offense, and may have been a stipulation, but a HC has to look at the players he has and play to their strengths, not try to do something they can't.

 

[wesgt123]

He warned about hiring Collins, we should've listened.

What did he say

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

You are hopeless. How did that first tear CJP team do when Booker was the QB Took a short blocked FG to beat some FCS team even though the team had 4 NFL caliber D linemen. Take Nesbit off that team it wins 3-4 games.

Come on man. Key‘s job is much harder because GT football has become a joke. Heck, the only guy who would even take the job was an alum. And what was one of the first recruiting things Key did? He recruited a stud QB via the portal because the 2 1/2 year starter quit. Those of you who have this belief that the roster inherited by Key is some star studded group are delusional. Key has inherited a DLine with holes, an undersized LB group and if the spring game is any indication a DB group that needs a mountain of work. On offense, we lost our best WR, have about 20 undersized WR’s that are question marks, have an OLine that none of us know if they can even reach the average category and have 2 young QB’s with limited game action because the previous guy handed the job to a kid who should be playing DB in DIII.

I like Key and think he could be a solid head coach, but this roster and entire program has a lot of work to do. Off season optimism is not reality. Cabrera and JBatt’s hugs and kisses are nice but until the roster improves they won’t put points on the scoreboard. Johnson didn‘t need hugs and kisses. He came in from day 1 and forced his will on the team - system change be damned.

I believe over the next 2 seasons as Key changes this program into a successful one that you’ll realize the work he has to put in. Collins inherited a solid program. Key has inherited a total mess.

 

[forensicbuzz]

I really don't think that the abysmal performance was player-based. I think the way they practiced, there was no way to develop toughness on either line. Without toughness, the OL could not protect the QB and RB's long enough for things to consistently happen. When I heard minimal contact during practices and no tackling, that's absurd.

 

[Ibeeballin]

That's basically every 4 star that we signed in that period. I think 2004 is a good example of the Gailey recruiting that I remember at least. We had Cavin, the GT GOAT IMO. Darryl Richard was a high 3 star with a nice offer list but we literally had 18 2 stars in that class. 18 of the 24 total players in that class were 2 stars and randomly clicking I haven't found 1 yet with another P5 offer.

JacketsOnline

The definitive source for all Georgia Tech news.

georgiatech.rivals.com

Is not 18 2 stars in once class also 'context'? The 2005 class had 12 2 stars (out of 18 commits) and no Calvin. Calvin was gone, these were the upper classmen for the team that Johnson inherited.

I’m assuming you missed the part about scouting services not being what they in regards how they scout players and before yahoo bought rivals

 

[ThatGuy]

55 days till we play Louisville. I can't wait.

 

[stech81]

I'll be so glad when the football season starts and we can talk about this year,
The past is the past can't change it now. Let's talk about this year.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Mike Leach always said he could institute his offense and be productive right away, and he was. Fritz made a more gradual transition at Ga Southern and was successful. Clawson and Elko had jobs that were as challenging in the ACC and they have their teams in a good place. Even if offense was a challenge, how do you explain defense and special teams?

It was possible to do a lot more with what we had in 2019, and build on it every year. Other coaches have.

For Key, he has a big challenge. Unless they’re a transfer , players on this team haven’t seen a winning season or a bowl. I don’t think we have anyone left from 2018. He has a bigger challenge than Collins—he has to get these players winning and playing solid football. He’s got to teach discipline and basic skills.

Solid response.

Collins made his job harder than it needed to be. He could have transitioned more gradually, keeping some running plays that were effective while enlarging the route tree for receivers. He could have kept some key players in positions they were comfortable in while building a new system. And so forth.

Instead, he thought he was ripping the bandaid off and hastening a total transition. You would have to be an imminently qualified coach to pull that off. Instead he threw players into a new system with confused play calling and very little coaching. Even from the stands it was impossible to see what the plan was to actually get better.

Very few coaches would have averaged three wins a season following CPJ but CGC was the gold standard of incompetence. It didn’t have to be that way.

Now Key gets to reintroduce discipline and coaching to a team that was encouraged by the previous coach to develop a lot of bad habits. Really difficult to follow someone like CGC but I am optimistic that we have someone now who is focused, well organized and fundamentally sound. Just like CPJ was.

 

[GT33]

You can stand by your man fellas, but your man won't be standing by us at Bobby Dodd anymore nor anywhere else for that matter. THW-Geoff

 

[Northeast Stinger]

A good coach could have taken the talent style on the team and created a good offense leveraging the skills available, while coming up with a transition plan. There was talent to win 5-7 games in their first year. Not great but SO MUCH BETTER than 3 wins.

This.

 

[g0lftime]

I don't know the answer to your question but a cursory examination of that first year (2019) gives a good idea of what strange times the program was about to enter. Tech played poorly in losing to both the Citadel and Temple yet somehow managed to beat a Miami team that had been picked to place second in the Coastal and a pretty decent NC State team. Just try to wrap your head around that. The only thing I remember from that Miami game was that we actually played pretty well and that the Miami fan board Canes in sight absolutely crucified Manny for that and never let up during his entire tenure. Must have been a bad year for new coaches.

Didn't Miami miss at least 3 field goals that were not that long. Kept trying different kickers after misses.