Yet another CPJ vs CGC thread

[CEB]

I think the transition didn't have to be as bad as CGC made it out to be. He did everything he could to disconnect from the option identify we had under Johnson, and in doing so, he forced us into an offense that we didn't have personnel for. You could have gone to a more typical Malzahn-type offense with our 2019 personnel (running QB with single option handoffs, 11 personnel, Spread concepts, etc.) and at least not have looked like we never practiced. Not saying we even needed Malzahn, just someone in that vein like Norvell or someone similar.

I agree with this...
Not that I am putting myself in a position of defense of Collins, but I have to think that some of the mindset / ideology was impressed upon him. We had a lot of fans toward the end of the CPJ era who were done with the option and wanted it gone (We have a few who are still fighting that fight today).
I think Collins was hired and likely mandated to do away with the option and both he and Sansbury (and likely others) were hellbent to make sure we didn’t resemble it in any way. With the benefit of hindsight, a more gradual transition was certainly warranted but I think everyone involved committed to “rip off the bandaid” instead.
I have no way of knowing where the GT /Stansbury directive ended and where Collins’ hubris and ineptitude began, but the combination of the two was disastrous.

 

[Ibeeballin]

Key‘s rebuild is absolutely gonna be harder than what Collins was facing. Collins inherited a program who had just gone to a bowl game and only finished below .500 in 3 of the previous 22 seasons. Key is inheriting a program that has had 4 losing seasons IN A ROW!!! GT’s football reputation has NEVER been lower which this staff is having to battle every day on the recruiting and portal trail.

Key‘s job is MUCH harder because of Collins. Now, I expect Key to be much better at the job of head coach than Collins was so while his job is much harder I expect better results. But, I also know it’s gonna take time and I hope that all of you who are predicting 7-8 wins don’t start denigrating Key when it doesn’t happen. We all hope it does but our defense is gonna be brutal. Our hope in winning ACC games is that Faulkner can scheme us to score 30plus per game because our defense is gonna get lit up.

This is absolutely ridiculous take. 1) CGC didn’t inherit a bowl team. A large chunk of that production was gone 2) It was called yr zero for reason. Not only did you need undersize guys to bulk up 20-30lbs, you had to teach a group of players basic level things like to get in 2pt stands, kick slide, RBs how to run a proper track and how to run the complete route tree. Key is not starting nowhere near the bottom of the ladder as CGC did. CGC was in over his head not only from coaching but truly understanding the severity of the transition. That’s why he panicked and gambled on some transfer guys that were high risk/high reward

Also, you have multiple players on defense entering yr 4 being Thacker system. There is no growing pains on either side of the ball

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

You guys act as if this is some sort of high level chemistry problem. Collins took over a real team who won games under a Hall of Fame coach. Key is taking over a dumpster fire from a horrible coach. Yet you guys think Keys job is easier? You guys are putting way to much stock in the word “system” and running cover for the worst coach in GT history for any sport. Any decent coach could have won 7 games and made it to a crappy bowl game that first year.

I guess the system change is also the reason Johnson only won 2 games his first year. Maybe you guys have it right.

 

[GT33]

I have no way of knowing where the GT /Stansbury directive ended and where Collins’ hubris and ineptitude began, but the combination of the two was disastrous.

A very astute observation here. Probably hasn’t been a worse 1-2 punch since Stalin/ Molotov

 

[Ibeeballin]

Yes and no on the OL. There were schemes that could have been ran that would not have had such a bad transition. If we had gone to a power run scheme from under center with a lot of down hill blockign out of the I and singleback. We would have had more OL fits and been running a pro style offense albeit one from the late 90s. Mason would have eat in that gettign 20-30 carries a game. Would we have won more? Maybe we also could have been shut down just as much but we atleast would have had an identity. Combien that with traditional gun sets and passing concepts we are basically running a jimbo fisher offense from bowden's better FSU teams.

We ironically went to an actual high school offense.

Our OL then was not built and designed to be a power run team. They relied on quickness and angles to create holes

 

[Roswellgoldmember]

He sucked as a coach. No one is debating that. The transition was going to be very hard. A big reason not many coaches were interested in the GT job then. This year the transition is much easier which is why more coaches were interested and expensive.

I agree but a more astute coach could of handled the offensive transition differently. Look at what Fritz did at GSU, in retrospect he would of been an obvious hire and I know that some pushed for him to be considered at that time. He passed more than Monken but still ran a fair amount of option, primarily from the gun. We had 2 QB's on campus who I think could of done well in that type of offense. We had a borderline NFL running back, and our receivers were either decent or Collins recruiting was really lacking in this area because we primarily used leftover CPJ receivers for the entirety of Collins tenure.

The defense built primarily from Roof's recruiting had some NFL talent. Our defense should of been closer to last years (after Collins was fired) than what we got. I think we had the talent to win 4 or 5 games the first few years and then go to a lower level bowl in year 3, with a competent coach.

 

[Ibeeballin]

You guys act as if this is some sort of high level chemistry problem. Collins took over a real team who won games under a Hall of Fame coach. Key is taking over a dumpster fire from a horrible coach. Yet you guys think Keys job is easier? You guys are putting way to much stock in the word “system” and running cover for the worst coach in GT history for any sport. Any decent coach could have won 7 games and made it to a crappy bowl game that first year.

I guess the system change is also the reason Johnson only won 2 games his first year. Maybe you guys have it right.

Who is that coach?

So we are going to ignore the talent CPJ inherited in 08, many of are in the GT HOF now? Cmon, CGC was terrible but let’s use common sense and logic here.

 

[Root4GT]

I agree but a more astute coach could of handled the offensive transition differently. Look at what Fritz did at GSU, in retrospect he would of been an obvious hire and I know that some pushed for him to be considered at that time. He passed more than Monken but still ran a fair amount of option, primarily from the gun. We had 2 QB's on campus who I think could of done well in that type of offense. We had a borderline NFL running back, and our receivers were either decent or Collins recruiting was really lacking in this area because we primarily used leftover CPJ receivers for the entirety of Collins tenure.

The defense built primarily from Roof's recruiting had some NFL talent. Our defense should of been closer to last years (after Collins was fired) than what we got. I think we had the talent to win 4 or 5 games the first few years and then go to a lower level bowl in year 3, with a competent coach.

Again we all agree that Collins sucked as a head coach.

Again he was brought in to change GT football away from what CJP ran. The intent was to rip off a band aide and start anew.

There was never intent from GT’s powers to make a gradual transition.

That’s the point that the transition in 2019 was much harder then in 2023.

 

[Root4GT]

You guys act as if this is some sort of high level chemistry problem. Collins took over a real team who won games under a Hall of Fame coach. Key is taking over a dumpster fire from a horrible coach. Yet you guys think Keys job is easier? You guys are putting way to much stock in the word “system” and running cover for the worst coach in GT history for any sport. Any decent coach could have won 7 games and made it to a crappy bowl game that first year.

I guess the system change is also the reason Johnson only won 2 games his first year. Maybe you guys have it right.

You are hopeless. How did that first tear CJP team do when Booker was the QB Took a short blocked FG to beat some FCS team even though the team had 4 NFL caliber D linemen. Take Nesbit off that team it wins 3-4 games.

 

[Roswellgoldmember]

Again we all agree that Collins sucked as a head coach.

Again he was brought in to change GT football away from what CJP ran. The intent was to rip off a band aide and start anew.

There was never intent from GT’s powers to make a gradual transition.

That’s the point that the transition in 2019 was much harder then in 2023.

Is there any evidence other than someone speculating like 3 posts above that some type of transition plan being enacted like Fritz did at GSU was not allowed by higher ups?

If so, then GT 'higher ups' dictating the type of offense the football coach should run is pretty disfunctional.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

You are hopeless. How did that first tear CJP team do when Booker was the QB Took a short blocked FG to beat some FCS team even though the team had 4 NFL caliber D linemen. Take Nesbit off that team it wins 3-4 games.

Yeah, no other team struggles when the starting QB goes down.

 

[SOWEGA Jacket]

Who is that coach?

So we are going to ignore the talent CPJ inherited in 08, many of are in the GT HOF now? Cmon, CGC was terrible but let’s use common sense and logic here.

You are the one who is pinning our 3 win seasons on “system change”. I’m just pointing out you are correct which is why when Johnson totally changed systems how bad we became. It was a total embarrassment.

 

[Roswellgoldmember]

You are the one who is pinning our 3 win seasons on “system change”. I’m just pointing out you are correct which is why when Johnson totally changed systems how bad we became. It was a total embarrassment.

I think their argument is that CPJ inherited more NFL talent which is obviously true. However, CPJ IMPROVED upon the success of Gailey in years 1 and 2, despite the challenges associated with the offensive system change. We also saw game to game improvement in year 1 as the season progressed.

 

[finalbuzzer]

You are the one who is pinning our 3 win seasons on “system change”. I’m just pointing out you are correct which is why when Johnson totally changed systems how bad we became. It was a total embarrassment.

System change involving great athletes adapting to a new system is quite a bit different from system change when the continuing athletes are not great.

Johnson inherited a bushel full of great athletes from Gailey. I am sure I don't have to name them as they are legends on the flats. How many legends did Collins inherit? I am speaking as someone who greatly admires Paul Johnson but once we transitioned to the guys recruited for his system anyone could have seen that it would not be easy to move away from it.

Hiring Collins made a very difficult situation an unbearable one.

 

[CEB]

Is there any evidence other than someone speculating like 3 posts above that some type of transition plan being enacted like Fritz did at GSU was not allowed by higher ups?

If so, then GT 'higher ups' dictating the type of offense the football coach should run is pretty disfunctional.

I think you’re referring to my speculation so I’d like to back it up with further speculation.

It was no secret that a lot of Tech faithful and likely some donors were done with the option. How influential were these voices? I have no idea, but that sentiment was certainly out there.

We hired an inexperienced HC whose biggest attributes were marketing and recruiting. Nothing about it felt like “gradual retooling.” It was a rebuild and rebrand from day one.

As many have said, it’s hard to believe that any coach wouldn’t assess the situation and play a little more to his personnel. It almost seemed that we made a conscious decision NOT to do that. Could’ve been:
- Collins’ inexperience?
- Collins’ hubris?
- GT / Stansbury direction?
- All of the above (my money is here)

Heck, we all watched (and noted after the fact) Patenaude come here and run a different style of O from his previous stops, then after leaving GT, revert back to things he had done prior to GT. Odd? (Fully conscious of likely bias here. Maybe I just wanted him to run the plays that worked other places a little more often. )

They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I firmly believe that everyone involved thought our best long term interests were served by a quick and total transition. Everything surrounding the program was a conscious effort to distance ourselves from the previous decade. To me, it felt like the team motto for a couple of years was, “we may fail, but we won’t fail by running the option!” They all stuck to it to their demise.

 

[MountainBuzzMan]

This may be the wrong thread, so the mods may relocate it.

I am in Norway sightseeing and visiting friends. In a quirky moment yesterday I saw someone I assumed to be a tourist wearing a GT cap and stopped him to chat. He lives in Oslo! He asked me what I thought about coach Key and I said I am optimistic. He concurred. He added that Collins was a bad choice to follow Johnson, but wondered if anyone could have been successful with that transition. I have had that same thought during these past few seasons in spite of wanting Collins gone. Am I the only one?

A good coach could have taken the talent style on the team and created a good offense leveraging the skills available, while coming up with a transition plan. There was talent to win 5-7 games in their first year. Not great but SO MUCH BETTER than 3 wins.

 

[MidtownJacket]

I don't recall seeing a coach openly laughing at CPJ's ability to manage a game (though recall many times he was laughing at them) the way Dabo giggled after smoking us out of our timeouts in 2022). That was a true low for me.

I think the opportunity for CBK is real in that there were a lot of ills done to our team by a lack of ability in the head coach. We saw the attitude shift when he took over and he often talked about moving the team from a mindset of waiting for something bad to happen into making something positive happen.

I am excited to see the product and the rewards from a full offseason and development cycle under CBK's leadership.

 

[Root4GT]

Yeah, no other team struggles when the starting QB goes down.

Of course you don’t get it. It’s not just the backup it a guy who isn’t comparable with the system. This is basic stuff. Believe what you want. You are simply wrong and anyone with actual knowledge will confirm you are wrong.

Again Collins was a bad coach. He failed.

Key has a much easier transition!

 

[cpf2001]

You are hopeless. How did that first tear CJP team do when Booker was the QB Took a short blocked FG to beat some FCS team even though the team had 4 NFL caliber D linemen. Take Nesbit off that team it wins 3-4 games.

Bringing up third string struggles seems to prove the anti-Collins point to me: Johnson found himself a good backup QB immediately so that the team could be hold things together with Shaw. Third string was a bigger problem, sure, but Collins couldn’t even figure out plan A.

One main theme seems to be “the admin insisted on only hiring a coach who would make as start a transition as possible even if that’s the way to win just 3 games in year 1.”

Maybe that scared away all the better coaches who knew how stupid it was, but it doesn’t make Collins look any better.

But it’s all a bit pointless. If you want to convince me that the difficulty of the translation means anyone would fail, then stop talking about year 1. Defend what we saw in years 3 and 4.

 

[cpf2001]

Of course you don’t get it. It’s not just the backup it a guy who isn’t comparable with the system. This is basic stuff. Believe what you want. You are simply wrong and anyone with actual knowledge will confirm you are wrong.

Again Collins was a bad coach. He failed.

Key has a much easier transition!

Would you rather have players who have been developed in a program that’s won recently, thst you’re gonna have to figure out how to best use, or players who win 3 games a year for four years (throwing out the Key results here).

In normal circumstances I’m going with the former. Like how Johnson figured out how to get even more out of the talent he inherited from a different system than the coach who recruited them did. Blah blah harder going the other way, ok, sure. But at least you have some recent success to recruit off of.

But on the other hand: players with 4 years of 3 wins. It’s not exactly attractive. The only mitigating circumstance would be if their coach was truly abysmal, one of the worst to ever coach at a high level anywhere…