Yet another CPJ vs CGC thread

[rfjeff9]

CPJ offense was fun and this was a good thread to read. I had forgot about the NCAA being pushed to ban some of the methods CPJ used in his blocking schemes. It's like we had a target on our offense and our opponents wanted to tear us down to level the playing field, going contrary with the whole point of why we were running that offense to begin with. Whiners were getting beat so they petitioned the NCAA to help them on the field.

Which reminded me....

Recall when we became aware that schools had started scheduling their BYE week the week before our matchup? CPJ complained to the ACC about it and he was upheld IIRC. When did that actually take place? I'm thinking it wasn't until closer to the end of his tenure, so I also wonder if we might have garnered a few more wins had that not been a thing our opponents discovered they could get away with. Makes me wonder how big of a problem it actually was, but I'm not the sort to enjoy sifting through past schedules to check on it.

 

[billga99]

Johnson was the absolute best coach for a pure 3O. I am not sure any of his proteges would have had comparable success if they had succeeded him. I do wish we had found a coach who incorporated 3O as a part of their offense so the change wouldn't have been so dramatic. I do think Johnson's offense (and any 3O coach) and player skill sets did not set up our defense for success. The main reason is we didn't have the WRs or QBs to emulate more of the offenses we played against. But against comparable talent we outscored our opponents more times than not. I think he will definitely go down as a well above average coach at GT.

In terms of today, I just don't know our ability to be anything more than an average team (6 to 7 wins) since we are recruiting against so many teams in our area which have a larger fan base, more money and more notoriety than GT currently (and obviously running comparable offenses and defenses). It really will require coaches who can take 3 star players and coach them up. The risk on that approach is many who do up their skills will then be recruiting by more successful schools via transfer and NIL money. I think our best chance for success on this approach is some legislation which requires transfer to sit out a year and/or caps in some manner NIL money. That gives you a better chance to develop your team to a higher level. We will see.

 

[g0lftime]

Our

Johnson was the absolute best coach for a pure 3O. I am not sure any of his proteges would have had comparable success if they had succeeded him. I do wish we had found a coach who incorporated 3O as a part of their offense so the change wouldn't have been so dramatic. I do think Johnson's offense (and any 3O coach) and player skill sets did not set up our defense for success. The main reason is we didn't have the WRs or QBs to emulate more of the offenses we played against. But against comparable talent we outscored our opponents more times than not. I think he will definitely go down as a well above average coach at GT.

In terms of today, I just don't know our ability to be anything more than an average team (6 to 7 wins) since we are recruiting against so many teams in our area which have a larger fan base, more money and more notoriety than GT currently (and obviously running comparable offenses and defenses). It really will require coaches who can take 3 star players and coach them up. The risk on that approach is many who do up their skills will then be recruiting by more successful schools via transfer and NIL money. I think our best chance for success on this approach is some legislation which requires transfer to sit out a year and/or caps in some manner NIL money. That gives you a better chance to develop your team to a higher level. We will see.

Best hope is to cluster 2 or 3 good classes back to back, develope them, have an experienced quarterback with a couple of game changers on O an D. Experience plus high skill players in key positions. We can be very competitive every 3 or 4 years and maybe a rebuild year between. I just don't see us reloading every year. Excellent coaching is a given.

 

[roadkill]

CPJ offense was fun and this was a good thread to read. I had forgot about the NCAA being pushed to ban some of the methods CPJ used in his blocking schemes. It's like we had a target on our offense and our opponents wanted to tear us down to level the playing field, going contrary with the whole point of why we were running that offense to begin with. Whiners were getting beat so they petitioned the NCAA to help them on the field.

Which reminded me....

Recall when we became aware that schools had started scheduling their BYE week the week before our matchup? CPJ complained to the ACC about it and he was upheld IIRC. When did that actually take place? I'm thinking it wasn't until closer to the end of his tenure, so I also wonder if we might have garnered a few more wins had that not been a thing our opponents discovered they could get away with. Makes me wonder how big of a problem it actually was, but I'm not the sort to enjoy sifting through past schedules to check on it.

When this issue came into view, there was an article where someone did an analysis of our schedules and those of our ACC brethren. IIRC, it showed that we had about twice as many instances of opponents scheduling bye weeks prior to playing us. Not sure if it also factored in scheduling cupcakes prior, which happened as well (uga in particular). The interesting thing was that the ACC flat-out denied giving any preferential treatment to our opponent’s schedule requests, despite the fact that someone showed how it was an extreme statistical improbability that it could have occurred randomly.

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

That’s exactly what I said. My question was wondering why that game? What was different about practice that week?

Beats me, I was not there but whatever it was it was as fleeting as a foggy morning in south Georgia when the sun comes up.

 

[cpf2001]

Nothing bc you had large group of people(coaches & recruits) that said no to the program even
before giving it a chance bc of the style of offense and the negative connotations that came with it in prepping for the next level. No money or Coach was changing that

Johnson @GT did far better than lower-level programs with similar schemes, what explains that other than investments of money+coaching+recruiting+PR?

I don't see any reason to believe that he'd absolutely maxed out that ceiling when GT was falling so far behind everyone else money-wise. You lose a lot off the table from the get-go, but was GT winning 100% of the winnable battles?

A smart athletic association would've wanted to maximize investment into things like that so that the coach after Johnson would have as few unnecessary disadvantages as possible. You're not gonna eliminate the roster/recruit fit problems and such, but you can do work up front so that rebuilding is an easier task, instead of having to start from scratch on all fronts.

 

[yeti92]

Nothing bc you had large group of people(coaches & recruits) that said no to the program even
before giving it a chance bc of the style of offense and the negative connotations that came with it in prepping for the next level. No money or Coach was changing that

That's why the 2010 class had more 4 stars in it than the 2020 class right?

 

[Ibeeballin]

That's why the 2010 class had more 4 stars in it than the 2020 class right?

Talk about exception to the rule lol. Talk to the 2010 class and ask why they came there. We showed those guys what life in Atlanta was like and they wanted to be like the guys they hung around on those teams during their respective recruitment

Why didn’t this come to fruition next 8 recruiting cycles?

 

[roadkill]

Talk about exception to the rule lol. Talk to the 2010 class and ask why they came there. We showed those guys what life in Atlanta was like and they wanted to be like the guys they hung around on those teams during their respective recruitment

Why didn’t this come to fruition next 8 recruiting cycles?

Maybe because we didn't win the conference championship the previous year?

 

[Ibeeballin]

Maybe because we didn't win the conference championship the previous year?

But we won an OB and had a double digit win season, so why didn’t the 4* talent (especially on offense) reciprocate?

 

[roadkill]

But we won an OB and had a double digit win season, so why didn’t the 4* talent (especially on offense) reciprocate?

Valid point.
While I honestly don't know if prior results affected recruiting, we had positive momentum and favorable publicity coming off two good seasons when we recruited the 2010 class. We did not sustain it, despite having another uptick in 2014 and again in 2016.

 

[RonJohn]

I still blame most of the decline in football in the late-mid 2010s to MBob being spineless. It seemed apparent in 2013 and 2014 that he was trying to push CPJ out.

There was a lot of talk when CPJ was replaced about "reconnecting" with Georgia high schools to improve recruiting because CPJ's coaches had reportedly ignored them. This past year, there were quotes from local (Metro Atlanta) high school coach who said that he was happy to have GT coaches visiting his school again, because they didn't have one visit since CPJ had left. I don't really buy the CPJ's staff didn't pay attention to recruiting argument.

There was a lot of negative recruiting against the option. CPJ wasn't very effective at countering the negative publicity. It didn't help that MBob was on the "flagship" station making backhanded comments about it at that time. CPJ isn't a polished public speaker, but I thought he came across as very authentic in the media. @Ibeeballin could say if his personality was the same in person as on-air or not. I just have the impression that he was the same person no matter where he was.

GT got far behind the rest of the conference, except WF, with money for football. Back in 2015-2016 I said that running the program into the ground to try to get rid of the HC would set the program back. I still think that is a lot of it. Every other ACC program had a team of recruiting personnel. Those people can't officially talk to recruits, but they can pre-vet recruits instead of having the coaches spend lots of time watching film. Those people can talk to high schools and set up visits instead of having the coaching staff make their own calls to set up logistics. That is one area that CPJ asked for help to be in the 2010s instead of the 1980s but was turned down.

CPJ is a helluva coach, and is going into the HOF. He wasn't perfect. He did have flaws. CGC ran the program into the ground. He apparently was a totally different person in front of the cameras than he was off the record. I can't even fathom how anyone thinks you could win games with 3/4 speed, minimum contact, etc practices. However, he did try to get the public perception of GT up. Not every single thing he did was horrible. With that said, we are trying to a HOF coach and a coach who currently needs to win 35 of his next 37 games in order to qualify for the HOF. There is no comparison.

There are some things that CPJ could have done better. However, as I said at the beginning of this post, I blame a lot of the downward trend in the 2010s on MBob. He should have fired CPJ if that is what he thought was best for the direction of the football program. Using a passive-aggressive method of trying to squeeze the football program in order to get him to leave did not benefit anyone. It left CPJ behind everyone else. Things trended upwards after TStan came, but even with the extra staff/support that CGC got when he came in GT was still behind the majority of the conference.

 

[yeti92]

Talk about exception to the rule lol. Talk to the 2010 class and ask why they came there. We showed those guys what life in Atlanta was like and they wanted to be like the guys they hung around on those teams during their respective recruitment

Why didn’t this come to fruition next 8 recruiting cycles?

Sure bud, you were just sooo cool they couldn't pass up on GT, but once you were gone that couldn't be replicated. That's definitely it.

The 2017 class had 4 4 star guys vs 2010's 5 4 stars - y'all must've popped back on campus a lot that offseason to give CPJ a boost.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Sure bud, you were just sooo cool they couldn't pass up on GT, but once you were gone that couldn't be replicated. That's definitely it.

The 2017 class had 4 4 star guys vs 2010's 5 4 stars - y'all must've popped back on campus a lot that offseason to give CPJ a boost.

Nah, 2010 had some really good reefer in the neighborhood. EVERYTHING was better back in the day.

 

[Ibeeballin]

Sure bud, you were just sooo cool they couldn't pass up on GT, but once you were gone that couldn't be replicated. That's definitely it.

The 2017 class had 4 4 star guys vs 2010's 5 4 stars - y'all must've popped back on campus a lot that offseason to give CPJ a boost.

I’m sure being a Swilling with Roof as DC didn’t have anything to do with it getting them. Again, all defensive guys. The stud HS RB decided that it would be best for his NFL development that he switch to LB instead of play the position every factory recruited him to be.

But have at it

 

[Techster]

Onwards, and upwards fellow Jackets...

 

[FlatsLander]

You seem to have the impression that I regret the Johnson era. Nothing could be further from the truth. I was simply stating that as great as Johnson’s tenure at GT was, he was also, in my opinion, not good for the program in the long run. These things can both be true.

To answer your questions, no, I wouldn’t want to have had Cutcliffe rather than Johnson. I thoroughly enjoyed the Johnson era from 2008-2014 (and 2016). To be fair though, we don’t know what results Cutcliffe would have had in that time frame, and to assume he would have taken us to only one ACCCG requires some twisted logic (are we just like Duke?). Could another coach have brought in more talent? Pure speculation, but Gailey showed it can be done, and TFG’s 2020 class, with a 1st round RB, confirmed it. Key’s 2024 recruiting thus far is not too shabby either. Our current talent level is difficult to ascertain accurately since, while it looks good on paper per 247, many of our best players left, and many of those remaining apparently underperformed as a result of TFG.

I fully agree with your last two sentences.

I'll admit I forced that some, but Duke had an easier path to winning the Coastal (no Clemson/F$U most years, and Wake from Atlantic). I'm not sure Cutcliffe showed anything at Duke that would indicate he would have been a big step up from Gailey. Only VT went to the ACCCG game more times than we did, and likewise they didn't play Clemson/F$U every year.
Either way, I wholly disagree that having CPJ here was bad for the program in the long run. There are no long run effects besides Vandy or Bama levels (bad and good) of long term performance. Rosters take at most 5 years to turn over, even faster with the TP. I believe we got more exposure nationally under CPJ than we would have under a more typical CFB coach.

 

[roadkill]

I'll admit I forced that some, but Duke had an easier path to winning the Coastal (no Clemson/F$U most years, and Wake from Atlantic). I'm not sure Cutcliffe showed anything at Duke that would indicate he would have been a big step up from Gailey. Only VT went to the ACCCG game more times than we did, and likewise they didn't play Clemson/F$U every year.
Either way, I wholly disagree that having CPJ here was bad for the program in the long run. There are no long run effects besides Vandy or Bama levels (bad and good) of long term performance. Rosters take at most 5 years to turn over, even faster with the TP. I believe we got more exposure nationally under CPJ than we would have under a more typical CFB coach.

Yeah, “in the long run” was a stretch on my part – maybe “intermediate-term after his departure” would have been more accurate in describing the trailing time frame after CPJ. Hopefully, we will be fully recovered within a few more years. But here are some negative impacts for the intermediate term, off the top of my head:

• Roster transition. Also speculative, but related to the roster he left is that it may have narrowed the field of available coaches to hire after him. Regarded as a reason TFG got a 7-year contract. One could argue that this also contributed to our disastrous hiring decision, which has cost us additional years of recovery.
• Underinvestment in the program during CPJ tenure means we’re playing catch-up for a while. Was that CPJ’s fault? I don’t know, but it’s been mentioned on this board how some large donors held back. Perhaps MBoB would have been more supportive of another coach (pure speculation).
• Fanbase – I know some fans who hated his “boring” offense and quit going to games as a result. Will they come back? Some may never return.
• Perception – our identity as an option team, along with its negative connotations, has persisted for several years after CPJ left.

Regardless, I wouldn’t trade the CPJ era for anything else, and think he deserves being in in the HOF.

 

[UgaBlows]

Yeah, “in the long run” was a stretch on my part – maybe “intermediate-term after his departure” would have been more accurate in describing the trailing time frame after CPJ. Hopefully, we will be fully recovered within a few more years. But here are some negative impacts for the intermediate term, off the top of my head:

• Roster transition. Also speculative, but related to the roster he left is that it may have narrowed the field of available coaches to hire after him. Regarded as a reason TFG got a 7-year contract. One could argue that this also contributed to our disastrous hiring decision, which has cost us additional years of recovery.
• Underinvestment in the program during CPJ tenure means we’re playing catch-up for a while. Was that CPJ’s fault? I don’t know, but it’s been mentioned on this board how some large donors held back. Perhaps MBoB would have been more supportive of another coach (pure speculation).
• Fanbase – I know some fans who hated his “boring” offense and quit going to games as a result. Will they come back? Some may never return.
• Perception – our identity as an option team, along with its negative connotations, has persisted for several years after CPJ left.

Regardless, I wouldn’t trade the CPJ era for anything else, and think he deserves being in in the HOF.

Yes. You win the thread

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Is it just my perception or did attendance hit rock bottom during TFG’s tenure?

I know more than a few of those will never return but Key is capable of bringing in a whole new group of fans.