Thoughts going into UVA week

[jeffgt14]

I don't think using Matt Ryan as a reason to not like Tenuta's defense is very fair. It's Matt Ryan who's one of the top QB's in NFL right now. When he's on, he doesn't miss. Here's an example of why you can't use some of these yardage stats against Tenuta.

If you look at certain stats in the NFL, the Arizona Cardinals have the worst pass defense in the NFL, are 24th in total yards allowed, and 22nd in yards per play. Just sitting there looking at those stats you would think they are no doubt one of the 10 worst defenses in the NFL. They are currently 6-1 and just about every win is because of how good their defense is. They've given up over 20 points just once this year and that was because the best QB in the NFL threw for about 500 yards and 4 TD's on them. Sound familiar?

 

[jeffgt14]

Chris Reis was 6'1 204, a 3 star.
Pat Clark was 5'10 175, 2 star who spent a lot of time at QB and WR before quickly shuttling to DB his last two years and starring (I thought it took decades to teach a position? IIRC Tenuta coached DBs himself.)
Anoai was 6'3 240, a 3 star.
Joe Gaston (solid backup and sometimes starter) was 6'0, 205, a 2 star.
KaMichael Hall was 6'1, 205, a 3 star.
Adamm Oliver was 6'4 235, a 3 star.
Avery Roverson was 6'2, 190 (played at 210 or so), a 3 star.
Kenny Scott was a stud, a 4 star at 6'1, 178.
Wheeler was 6'2, 215, a 3 star.
Travis Chambers was 6'1 215, a 2 star.
Guyton was 6'4, 220 - a 2 star.
Djay Jones was 6'2, 186, a 2 star (played at 220).
Jamal Lewis was 6'0 175, a 2 star (played amazing at safety.)
Even Darryl Richard was a 3 star.
Robo was 6'5, 215, a 3 star (developed into a beast).
Vance Walker was 6'2 255, a 2 star.
Jahi Word Daniels was 5'11, 160, a 3 star.
Michael Johnson was 6'7, 215, a 3 star.

You can also add that Michael Johnson was primarily a 3-star TE.

 

[Wrecking Ball]

Lol DCS thinks we had 4 and 5 stars that came in at 6'6, 295 pounds of raging muscle and now all we get is 4'8 midgets with sharkbitten calves and thighs.

 

[Wrecking Ball]

One of Tenuta's best coaching jobs ever was taking Gerris Wilkinson, a DE recruit, and turning him into an all-ACC middle linebacker. He wasn't scared to put people where they'd do the best on the field.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Buy THAT. None of them came in heralded, most of them were projects, most of them lanky or small or what have you but they were turned into headhunters, killers, and beasts.

Dramatic much. There's a big difference in being under the radar and not good. I can't figure out what you're trying to say. I'm saying they were all very good college players. I think you agree with that. To say it's all due to their "college development/coaching" is extremely unfair to them. I'd say it was a damn fine job in recruiting and an indictment of the star system.

 

[Wrecking Ball]

You can't have it both ways. You claim they would have been successful ANYWHERE when there's no basis for that except their incoming measurables and star rankings.

That list looks a lot like the same kinds of guys we recruit now. If the ingredients are the same and the meal tastes bad, it's the chef or the kitchen staff.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

You can't have it both ways. You claim they would have been successful ANYWHERE when there's no basis for that except their incoming measurables and star rankings.

Wha? You're kidding right?

 

[dressedcheeseside]

You can't have it both ways. You claim they would have been successful ANYWHERE when there's no basis for that except their incoming measurables and star rankings.

That list looks a lot like the same kinds of guys we recruit now. If the ingredients are the same and the meal tastes bad, it's the chef or the kitchen staff.

The ingredients are not the same. Besides, the guys we lost are guys we recruited. Don't you think our D would be a little better w/o the attrition?

Dude, there's no way in hell you can convince me the talent is the same so stop trying, it's laughable.

 

[Wrecking Ball]

I am not claiming the talent is the same. I am claiming it is not because the development is not the same. Huge difference.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

I am not claiming the talent is the same. I am claiming it is not because the development is not the same. Huge difference.

I have no idea if the development was/is the same or not, I don't think the raw ingredients are quite the same, either. Development takes time. Roof has been here 1.6 years. How can you judge his development record in that short a time period?

 

[Wrecking Ball]

Since 2010, we have recruited guys with the same or better incoming measurables than what Tenuta was dealing with.

Attaochu 6'3 235
Ayers 5'10 175
Green 6'2 275
Holton 6'1 196
Williams 6'4 235
Young 6'0 185
Cheeks 6'3 220 (woulda been a LB)
Golden 6'1 190
Harrell 6'2 225
Hunt Days 6'2 225
Kitchen 6'3 265
Marcordes 6'4 230
McNair 6'2 225
Menocal 6'3 235
Milton 6'0 175
Noble 6'2 190
Smith 6'1 185
Travis 6'3 235
Allen 6'2 210
Gamble 6'5 275
Chungong 6'3 250
Gotsis 6'4 290
Hankins 6'2 230
Griffin 6'0 205
Kallon 6'5 260
Stargel 6'3 250
White 5'10 180


Most of these guys were taller, stronger, and already closer to D-1 bodies (and 200 lb linebackers here?)

 

[vamosjackets]

I'm not buying that. Those were good/great college players and many of them pros. They would have been good/great players anywhere. You can't make chicken salad out of you know what.

I see your point. But we don't have any Mr. Hendersons no matter what scheme we're running. Or, for that matter, any Phillip Wheelers, K. Michael Halls, Chris Reises, Dawon Landrys, Kenny Scotts, Joe Anoais, Gary Guytons, Darrell Robertsons, Dennis Davises or Vance Walkers.

Compare Gotsis and Green to Parker and freshman Wrotto. No clear winner. DE is where we're much weaker. But, we didn't always have studs at DE with Tenuta either ... Oliver was no game changer - many thought he would be a weak link and wanted Michael Johnson to replace him imediately and so on. Would've reminded a lot of folks of Stargel or Travis measurables wise. Now he was darn good as a senior and had bulked up to 275 and lost no speed, so was a very good player at that point. And Robo wouldn't have been highly preferable to Freeman, he was very undersized
I really like our LB personnel and think they don't matchup too bad with Hall and Wheeler or Reis and Wilkinson or whatever. Davis and Nealy are capable guys who can do good things and get done many things that you would ask them to do in Tenuta's scheme. A lot of the time our guys made plays because they were totally unblocked. I don't care if it's Derrick Morgan or if it's Keshaun Freeman, if he's got a free run to the QB, I expect either one of them to get a big sack or at least rush the QB into an incompletion.

Most of the guys we're revering from Tenuta's scheme did not make it in the NFL - Robo, Oliver, Anoai, Hall, Parker, Wrotto was OL (would never have made it at DL), Richard, Henderson was borderline NFL, Reis was a special teams hustle guy (couldn't have made it as a LB) ... good athletes all of them, but not elite-type guys.

I don't know the answer to Roof yet. I do know that losing 6 out of your top 8 DL is a recipe for struggle for any DC. Should we be better than we've been, would we have been better under a Tenuta ... I tend to think yes, but it's not a hill I'm ready to die on ... too many variables to get the right answer.

 

[inGTwetrust]

I personally think it would be more on the old guys natural ability than coaching development. It they didn't have the ability they wouldn't be/have been in the pros. I think you could put saban as our DC today and there would still be a talent gap based on the players we have today....not just development.

 

[daBuzz]

For all Gailey's faults, there was one thing the guy could apparently do....recognize talent. We sure did seem to bring in quite a few 2 and 3 star guys who had "projectability" to use a scouting term. Then, through weight program, much hard work by the young man, coaching, environment, etc those guys turned out to be successful college and pro players. At least to my own eye, it always seemed like we had more "NFL caliber" talent then than we do now.

As far as judging Tenuta versus Matt Ryan, I would agree with that statement @jeffgt14. My reason for including that game in my argument was that Tenuta never adjusted. He just flat our refused to stop blitzing even when it wasn't working.

We went into the 4th quarter and we were still trying the same zone blitzing scheme that Ryan had been picking apart all game. At one point, everyone in the stands around me was yelling things like "Stop blitzing, you stupid f**k" or WTTE. That is, the ones who were still there at that point. We scored some points at the end of that game to make it appear closer than it was in real life. That game was a beat down.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Since 2010, we have recruited guys with the same or better incoming measurables than what Tenuta was dealing with.

Attaochu 6'3 235
Ayers 5'10 175
Green 6'2 275
Holton 6'1 196
Williams 6'4 235
Young 6'0 185
Cheeks 6'3 220 (woulda been a LB)
Golden 6'1 190
Harrell 6'2 225
Hunt Days 6'2 225
Kitchen 6'3 265
Marcordes 6'4 230
McNair 6'2 225
Menocal 6'3 235
Milton 6'0 175
Noble 6'2 190
Smith 6'1 185
Travis 6'3 235
Allen 6'2 210
Gamble 6'5 275
Chungong 6'3 250
Gotsis 6'4 290
Hankins 6'2 230
Griffin 6'0 205
Kallon 6'5 260
Stargel 6'3 250
White 5'10 180


Most of these guys were taller, stronger, and already closer to D-1 bodies (and 200 lb linebackers here?)

Ok so you've shown similar measureables, so what? Football is not a beauty contest where games are decided on how guys look coming off the bus. They actually have to play the game. Our best offensive player last year was some little dude nobody else wanted, heck we didn't even offer him a scholarship until after he proved his worth in college games. Point: measureables don't tell the whole story. I'm in no way saying Tenuta's players were an "all measureables" team, they were good football players and much of Tenuta's success was because of it. I'll also credit Tenuta for his scheme and development. It's just not as heavily weighted in the final product as you suggest. Talent, no matter how it came to be, was a huge part of it.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Compare Gotsis and Green to Parker and freshman Wrotto. No clear winner. DE is where we're much weaker. But, we didn't always have studs at DE with Tenuta either ... Oliver was no game changer - many thought he would be a weak link and wanted Michael Johnson to replace him imediately and so on. Would've reminded a lot of folks of Stargel or Travis measurables wise. Now he was darn good as a senior and had bulked up to 275 and lost no speed, so was a very good player at that point. And Robo wouldn't have been highly preferable to Freeman, he was very undersized
I really like our LB personnel and think they don't matchup too bad with Hall and Wheeler or Reis and Wilkinson or whatever. Davis and Nealy are capable guys who can do good things and get done many things that you would ask them to do in Tenuta's scheme. A lot of the time our guys made plays because they were totally unblocked. I don't care if it's Derrick Morgan or if it's Keshaun Freeman, if he's got a free run to the QB, I expect either one of them to get a big sack or at least rush the QB into an incompletion.

Most of the guys we're revering from Tenuta's scheme did not make it in the NFL - Robo, Oliver, Anoai, Hall, Parker, Wrotto was OL (would never have made it at DL), Richard, Henderson was borderline NFL, Reis was a special teams hustle guy (couldn't have made it as a LB) ... good athletes all of them, but not elite-type guys.

I don't know the answer to Roof yet. I do know that losing 6 out of your top 8 DL is a recipe for struggle for any DC. Should we be better than we've been, would we have been better under a Tenuta ... I tend to think yes, but it's not a hill I'm ready to die on ... too many variables to get the right answer.

I'll buy that.

 

[vamosjackets]

For all Gailey's faults, there was one thing the guy could apparently do....recognize talent. We sure did seem to bring in quite a few 2 and 3 star guys who had "projectability" to use a scouting term. Then, through weight program, much hard work by the young man, coaching, environment, etc those guys turned out to be successful college and pro players. At least to my own eye, it always seemed like we had more "NFL caliber" talent then than we do now.

As far as judging Tenuta versus Matt Ryan, I would agree with that statement @jeffgt14. My reason for including that game in my argument was that Tenuta never adjusted. He just flat our refused to stop blitzing even when it wasn't working.

We went into the 4th quarter and we were still trying the same zone blitzing scheme that Ryan had been picking apart all game. At one point, everyone in the stands around me was yelling things like "Stop blitzing, you stupid f**k" or WTTE. That is, the ones who were still there at that point. We scored some points at the end of that game to make it appear closer than it was in real life. That game was a beat down.

I have never thought in any game I've ever watched that 24 points would imply a beat-down ... and inasmuch as it would that would be more on the O than the D. If Tenuta listened to the fans yelling that kind of garbage, what would that tell you? If he had, it probably would've resulted in more than 24 points. That particular fan is getting what he asked for now. At least all BC could do was pass. We stop with the agressive calls (and hope the refs actually start calling the holding), then they can pick their poison. What kinds of things have you heard people yell at CPJ in the stands? I've heard stuff ... Do you agree with it?

 

[Wrecking Ball]

Exactly. Tenuta held Matt Ryan to 24 points with his least talented D at Tech. BC scored a lot more on other teams, including more talented teams. Tenuta held BC SCORELESS on 8/12 possessions.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

I have never thought in any game I've ever watched that 24 points would imply a beat-down ... and inasmuch as it would that would be more on the O than the D. If Tenuta listened to the fans yelling that kind of garbage, what would that tell you? If he had, it probably would've resulted in more than 24 points. That particular fan is getting what he asked for now. At least all BC could do was pass. We stop with the agressive calls (and hope the refs actually start calling the holding), then they can pick their poison. What kinds of things have you heard people yell at CPJ in the stands? I've heard stuff ... Do you agree with it?

Wasn't the BC OL holding like crazy in that game? Didn't they get flagged a bunch of times but got away with a ton more? I think I remember the OL's even admitting it in the press.

 

[vamosjackets]

Ok so you've shown similar measureables, so what? Football is not a beauty contest where games are decided on how guys look coming off the bus. They actually have to play the game. Our best offensive player last year was some little dude nobody else wanted, heck we didn't even offer him a scholarship until after he proved his worth in college games. Point: measureables don't tell the whole story. I'm in no way saying Tenuta's players were an "all measureables" team, they were good football players and much of Tenuta's success was because of it. I'll also credit Tenuta for his scheme and development. It's just not as heavily weighted in the final product as you suggest. Talent, no matter how it came to be, was a huge part of it.

CPJ's got a system that can utilize guys who are good athletes though most aren't elite and give them a numbers advantage so that they can succeed and be very productive. And, he teaches the heck out of it so that they develop well within that system to get better at what they're asked to do. We need to be able to do that on the other side of the ball too. I say that with a high level of confidence that you agree with it. And, I think most would. We all agree more than we let on.