So what did Joseph do?

[RonJohn]

<SIGH>
"Two weeks later, she said that she was told that sophomore team members could no longer live off-campus, even though she had previously received support for the policy, which her e-mail stated to be the standard treatment for men’s athletes at Tech."
"the condition of the locker room ;and the methods of travel."

As I have previously posted...IF these allegations are even close to being true.....the GTAA WILL be hurt bad. You can try to hand wave it away all you want but, but I know what side the FEDs will go to.

Double<SIGH>

I am not trying to hand wave. I am asking for specifics.

• For the off-campus living, you left out the next sentence which states that the athletes were then allowed to live off-campus. They never were actually prevented from living off campus, so it is not an actual issue.
• For the locker room conditions: We know that both teams(men's and women's) locker rooms are not in good condition and due for renovations. Is the women's locker room actually in worse condition than the men's? Is her complaint comparing the women's basketball locker room to the football locker room? Is her complaint that the women's locker room paint is 3.7% more faded than the men's basketball locker room? What are the actual specific differences being complained about?
• For the methods of travel: What are the actual differences? Do the men fly private jet and the women ride in the hatch of Yugos? Is the difference that more support staff travel with the men?(such as radio announcers, etc) Is the difference that CJP gets first class seats yet CMJ doesn't, while the teams all fly coach? What are the actual specific differences being complained about?

For the first item, it was addressed and no differences actually existed in policy when it actually affected athletes. For the other two, the specifics matter. If CMJ is complaining that the paint is slightly more faded in the locker room and that she personally doesn't fly first class while CJP does, then those are "differnces", but they would rise to a level that would create problems. Specifics do matter, even if you are happy being judge and jury based only on vague statements.

 

[RonJohn]

Kind of funny....you seem to think a 1500 person law firm is special....I look at it as a "factory" A lawyer for 5 years with a specialty? Yeah....believe that if you want.......kids like that get chewed up and spit out. I see the same thing happen in engineering and architecture firms all the time.

An engineer with 5 years experience can get his PE. In engineering and architecture firms, the engineers and architects are rarely starting from scratch on a project. There are design basis and templates to start from. There are also other engineers and architects to lean on for support if you run into something you are unsure about.

Are you saying, as CMJ's lawyer did, that a matter of Title IV and employment requires a former Assistant Attorney General or it isn't a valid inquiry?

 

[Animal02]

An engineer with 5 years experience can get his PE. In engineering and architecture firms, the engineers and architects are rarely starting from scratch on a project. There are design basis and templates to start from. There are also other engineers and architects to lean on for support if you run into something you are unsure about.

Are you saying, as CMJ's lawyer did, that a matter of Title IV and employment requires a former Assistant Attorney General or it isn't a valid inquiry?

I had my license at five years out..... didn't mean I knew squat.

 

[Animal02]

Double<SIGH>

I am not trying to hand wave. I am asking for specifics.

• For the off-campus living, you left out the next sentence which states that the athletes were then allowed to live off-campus. They never were actually prevented from living off campus, so it is not an actual issue.
• For the locker room conditions: We know that both teams(men's and women's) locker rooms are not in good condition and due for renovations. Is the women's locker room actually in worse condition than the men's? Is her complaint comparing the women's basketball locker room to the football locker room? Is her complaint that the women's locker room paint is 3.7% more faded than the men's basketball locker room? What are the actual specific differences being complained about?
• For the methods of travel: What are the actual differences? Do the men fly private jet and the women ride in the hatch of Yugos? Is the difference that more support staff travel with the men?(such as radio announcers, etc) Is the difference that CJP gets first class seats yet CMJ doesn't, while the teams all fly coach? What are the actual specific differences being complained about?

For the first item, it was addressed and no differences actually existed in policy when it actually affected athletes. For the other two, the specifics matter. If CMJ is complaining that the paint is slightly more faded in the locker room and that she personally doesn't fly first class while CJP does, then those are "differnces", but they would rise to a level that would create problems. Specifics do matter, even if you are happy being judge and jury based only on vague statements.

What part of "if the allegations are close to being true" could you not comprehend? Seems that you are taking the GTAA position without question.
As in almost everything....the truth lies somewhere in the middle. If it comes down to GTAA- "She was mean" and "GTAA violated federal law"......only a moron would thing the GTAA is not going to get hurt.

 

[RonJohn]

What part of "if the allegations are close to being true" could you not comprehend? Seems that you are taking the GTAA position without question.
As in almost everything....the truth lies somewhere in the middle. If it comes down to GTAA- "She was mean" and "GTAA violated federal law"......only a moron would thing the GTAA is not going to get hurt.

I am not taking any side. I don't really consider "the locker rooms aren't as good" to be an actual allegation without an understanding of what the person means by that. It is a vague statement that could mean more faded paint, or dangerous debris falling around the players. The vague statement could be true(paint is more faded), and not be anywhere close to a Title IX violation. It could be that GT is violating Title IX. It could be that CMJ is over exaggerating things. It could be that CMJ is making things up to try to get a settlement out of GT. At this point, I don't have enough information to take a position at all. However, I would say that CMJ's attitude that TStan, GTAA support staff, and her players are all coordinating a witch hunt to discredit her for her heroic stances toward gender equity does not increase her credibility in my view.

 

[Texwood]

Fire him or her all day long. I would agree. Lewis wasn't fired for cause.

Fire them for cause and not pay the rest of the contract is what I am referring to. Watching Joseph's lawyer and reading the response, my opinion is this will be a gradu show not worth the $150K or so they owe her.

The back story of why B*** L**** lost the trust of his players would absolutely be a termination for cause issue in 2019. The coach Jo situation is clear cut provided her ex student athletes are willing to testify. I will grant you this, if the buyout was only $150k, that would have been my choice if I were in Tstan's shoes.

 

[BonafideJacket]

Kind of funny....you seem to think a 1500 person law firm is special....I look at it as a "factory" A lawyer for 5 years with a specialty? Yeah....believe that if you want.......kids like that get chewed up and spit out. I see the same thing happen in engineering and architecture firms all the time.

As an engineer turned lawyer, I have a couple of qualms with your assessment.

First, Mr. Hoffman isn't some 28-year-old wet-behind-the-ears "kid." Per his bio he spent almost a decade working in the real world before law school. In particular, he "holds a master’s degree in education with an emphasis in higher education administration. Prior to and during law school, Eric worked in multiple capacities for several higher education institutions. Most recently he served as the Assistant Dean and Director of Student Conduct at Emory University, where he investigated and adjudicated Title IX cases." I can tell you that in many cases, like products liability or intellectual property litigation, my previous education and experience as an engineer has proven much more helpful than anything I learned during or after law school. I believe that's what made Mr. Hoffman the ideal candidate for the investigation as well... his previous career gave him the experience he needed to navigate it while his legal training made sure he did it properly.

Second, Littler is a special law firm (even if it only has ~1000 attorneys, not 1500). There is something to be said for working for a "factory." Just like in CFB, factories have vast resources, funds, and connections that can get things done faster and better than anyone else. Do some people wash out? Sure, and both sides are better for it. But the ones who survive are the litigators and M&A artists that you want on your side when "bet the company" litigation or industry-changing acquisitions come around. Or in this case, when a comprehensive investigation of a high-profile employment matter with significant potential risk to the institution is needed.

 

[Jazzchaz]

If both side allegations are true....she used bad words against players, and GTAA did not treat the men's and women's teams equally, GTAA will lose big.

If a ladies' college coach wants to go to court because the men's coaches get away with yelling at, cursing at, or grabbing players more than the ladies do, they might as well close down all college athletics because 90%+ of all schools are guilty.
I've seen Bobby Knight's name mentioned a couple of times on here but I don't remember his players being against him. I thought they defended him. The media wet their pants because he slapped a kid but I thought the kid had no problem with it. If anything, you can look at the Knight firing as happening about the time people in this country lost their mind. He didn't respect the media....nor did many of them deserve respect.....so they trashed him and folks were OK with that.
I wonder what percent of their fans wish he was still their coach?

 

[RonJohn]

If a ladies' college coach wants to go to court because the men's coaches get away with yelling at, cursing at, or grabbing players more than the ladies do, they might as well close down all college athletics because 90%+ of all schools are guilty.
I've seen Bobby Knight's name mentioned a couple of times on here but I don't remember his players being against him. I thought they defended him. The media wet their pants because he slapped a kid but I thought the kid had no problem with it. If anything, you can look at the Knight firing as happening about the time people in this country lost their mind. He didn't respect the media....nor did many of them deserve respect.....so they trashed him and folks were OK with that.
I wonder what percent of their fans wish he was still their coach?

Neil Reed absolutely did have a problem with it. He left Indiana at the same time Jason Collier left Indiana to come to GT. He didn't slap Reed, he pushed him aggressively with two hands in a choke hold. Other people took the story to the media. Reed didn't talk to the media until Knight got word of the allegations going public and spoke negatively in the media about Reed. Knight and Indiana badmouthed Reed and other players who had backed his story and absolutely denied that the incident happened. CNN received a video tape of the practice in which the incident happened and announced that they were going to show the video that evening. Indiana had people fly to Atlanta to meet with CNN before it was shown. Those people didn't want to see the video, they threatened CNN with prosecution and lawsuits if they didn't return the video and any copies because they were stolen property of the University of Indiana. The video ended at the choking, and didn't show the aftermath in which Reed claimed that Knight was held from back from continuing the assault by other players while berating Reed. Indiana gave Knight a three game suspension and put him on a zero-tolerance policy towards physical contact with student-athletes. Shortly after that, he met a student(not a student-athlete) who asked him "What's up Knight?", and he grabbed that student by the arm and cursed the student about manners.

Many IU fans wanted him to remain the coach at the time. There were even Indiana fan rallies where they burned Neil Reed in effigy. Knight did trash the media, but he claimed that the media was just out to get him. He claimed that the incident that was being reported absolutely did not happen, and that the players only said that it happened because the reporter was convincing them to lie. The school threatened the news organization who was reporting with criminal charges if they didn't turn over the proof that the incident did happen and not report it.

The only thing that seems similar to me between Knight and Joseph is the "absolute" denial that any of the accusations ever happened. The fact that Knight, the university President, and the athletic department absolutely denied that anything even remotely similar to the incident described by Reed is what caused the public to turn against them. Being told that the players are all liars, and then seeing video evidence that it did indeed happen broke all credibility of Knight. If evidence, or even statements from players become public about Joseph that contradict her "absolute" denial that she acted this way, her credibility will be broken also.

 

[Jazzchaz]

I never saw the Reed clip so I have nothing to debate with you on him. The slap was a petty thing I saw during a game that the media went nuts over. Still, I've heard from a lot of players that felt that Knight was intense but they respected him as a coach. I've read of many things much worse through the years in college sports that were ignored. Obviously, it didn't scare Texas Tech away. Knight was burned out from media long before these incidents as was Paul Johnson when he grabbed a helmet.....which in my opinion is a joke to even talk about.

 

[RonJohn]

I never saw the Reed clip so I have nothing to debate with you on him. The slap was a petty thing I saw during a game that the media went nuts over. Still, I've heard from a lot of players that felt that Knight was intense but they respected him as a coach. I've read of many things much worse through the years in college sports that were ignored. Obviously, it didn't scare Texas Tech away. Knight was burned out from media long before these incidents as was Paul Johnson when he grabbed a helmet.....which in my opinion is a joke to even talk about.

Reed died at the age of 36. After he died, Bobby Knight was quoted as saying that he was glad the Reed was dead, and the he hoped that all of the people who had accused him and released him from Indiana died early. That is plenty enough to lose my respect.

 

[Jazzchaz]

Reed died at the age of 36. After he died, Bobby Knight was quoted as saying that he was glad the Reed was dead, and the he hoped that all of the people who had accused him and released him from Indiana died early. That is plenty enough to lose my respect.

I'm not disagreeing with you on this, but wanted to read where he said it. I just did a quick search and couldn't find it.
My Dad was a lot like Bobby Knight, except he wouldn't have said much of anything to anybody in the media. He was someone you didn't mouth off to.(although he was pretty meek his last 10 years). He was from the respect your elders generation and frankly, he deserved respect.
At some point in recent times, it became 'OK' for kids to show a lack of respect to elders. I just read where Reed said maybe he was partly at fault.
In my opinion, Reed probably said something disrespectful and Knight's reaction was frustration over the changing world. In some ways, change was overdue, but in others the erosion has been a disaster.
I haven't coached girls but my perception is that a kinder approach works better....and yet so much of what I read now is that it's supposed to be same for guys and gals. I think that's crazy.
Considering how I was raised, if Joseph was coaching guys, I don't think that 90% of what I've read she said is a big deal, but for gals it's too much. The other 10% does sound sadistic though.
A coach gets hung for making a denial that is proven true. It's probably done in desperation to save their career.
Should it be the end of a career? Instead of answering this, I'd rather say sometimes people need a change and they need to move on before they snap.

 

[RonJohn]

I'm not disagreeing with you on this, but wanted to read where he said it. I just did a quick search and couldn't find it.
My Dad was a lot like Bobby Knight, except he wouldn't have said much of anything to anybody in the media. He was someone you didn't mouth off to.(although he was pretty meek his last 10 years). He was from the respect your elders generation and frankly, he deserved respect.
At some point in recent times, it became 'OK' for kids to show a lack of respect to elders. I just read where Reed said maybe he was partly at fault.
In my opinion, Reed probably said something disrespectful and Knight's reaction was frustration over the changing world. In some ways, change was overdue, but in others the erosion has been a disaster.
I haven't coached girls but my perception is that a kinder approach works better....and yet so much of what I read now is that it's supposed to be same for guys and gals. I think that's crazy.
Considering how I was raised, if Joseph was coaching guys, I don't think that 90% of what I've read she said is a big deal, but for gals it's too much. The other 10% does sound sadistic though.
A coach gets hung for making a denial that is proven true. It's probably done in desperation to save their career.
Should it be the end of a career? Instead of answering this, I'd rather say sometimes people need a change and they need to move on before they snap.

It is possible that I remembered the quote about Reed incorrectly. I saw the 30 for 30 special a long time ago. There is audio of Knight saying that he hopes that all of the leadership of IU are dead. I would compare the Bobby Knight era at IU to the Paterno era at Penn State. They both had more power than the university presidents, and were able to do absolutely anything they wanted to with no oversight. That is very different than the women's basketball coach at GT.

The career ending aspect is what I suspect CMJ and her attorney are fighting for now. If they can enter into an out of court settlement with a non-disclosure agreement, she can claim that she was vindicated when trying to get another position. If it is left publicly as she was abusive and predatory(isolating players to exert control of them) it will be more difficult to get another coaching position.

One thing I would ask from a credibility standpoint(with respect to TStan) is why TStan would fire her for cause when he could have just fired her without cause. She would have been owed her buyout, but her lawyers gave hints at her response before she was fired. It was known that she was going to sue and make Title IX allegations before she was fired. Firing her for cause and not paying the buyout is going to cost the GTAA more money that paying the buyout would have. The people at the GTAA knew that. If this is all a conspiracy between TStan, GTAA staff, and every single member of the basketball team, why wouldn't the GTAA have chosen the less expensive method of getting rid of her?

 

[Animal02]

If a ladies' college coach wants to go to court because the men's coaches get away with yelling at, cursing at, or grabbing players more than the ladies do, they might as well close down all college athletics because 90%+ of all schools are guilty.
I've seen Bobby Knight's name mentioned a couple of times on here but I don't remember his players being against him. I thought they defended him. The media wet their pants because he slapped a kid but I thought the kid had no problem with it. If anything, you can look at the Knight firing as happening about the time people in this country lost their mind. He didn't respect the media....nor did many of them deserve respect.....so they trashed him and folks were OK with that.
I wonder what percent of their fans wish he was still their coach?

In this day and age, you cannot have one set of rule for a women's coach and a different on for men's. That will get you sued every time.

 

[RonJohn]

In this day and age, you cannot have one set of rule for a women's coach and a different on for men's. That will get you sued every time.

Did you read the internal investigative report?

Do you believe that it only states that she cursed at the players? Which men's program coach is allowed to pick one player per practice and berate that player non-stop during the practice with cursing? If you are saying that the men's coaches do exactly what CMJ is accused of, then you are saying that at least one of them does that.

 

[LibertyTurns]

Did you read the internal investigative report?

Do you believe that it only states that she cursed at the players? Which men's program coach is allowed to pick one player per practice and berate that player non-stop during the practice with cursing? If you are saying that the men's coaches do exactly what CMJ is accused of, then you are saying that at least one of them does that.

Obviously GT has grounds for termination but that is not what this lawsuit’s going to be about. Joseph and her lawyer will attack every aspect of GT in an attempt to get money & they will be successful from what I can tell. My company just settled out of court with a person that was medically disqualified from working by 3 different doctors. It was cheaper to settle than go thru years of legal wrangling where the individual brought out every sliver of evidence that needed to be refuted,

Here as evidence from the other side we have:
A. Alleged unaddressed claims of Title 9 inconsistent polices over a multi-year period which allegedly were unanswered, not just unaddressed. That’s problematic.
B. You have texts, names redacted, but probably some of the same individuals claiming she was mean, etc. How do you reconcile a favorable email which is enduring evidence vs a verbal recollection. Some what problematic.
C. There did not appear to be any checking into staff emails & facebook, etc by this investigative attorney GT hired. That is very curious as it should have been ripe for damaging info on Joseph.
D. There were other independent advisors, psychologists, etc that refuted the investigator’s report. Add that to where was GT’s oversight all these years.
E. You’ve got the timing of the firing with the barrage of complaints by Joseph. A normal tactic by someone believing the hammer was coming down. However, the optics is not good.

Not anti-GT’s actions in totality, but it’s far from 1 100% to 0% case here and you’re going to be dealing with a jury that could or could not be sympathetic to a women’s claim of no support and discrimination. This one looks to me like 67% to 33% which is way to close to the magic 50% to make it a slam dunk. GT buys their way out of this. I hope they do it quickly for the sake of the Women’s Basketball team and our Athletics Department’s health. These things spawn off other side effects.

 

[Animal02]

I am not taking any side. I don't really consider "the locker rooms aren't as good" to be an actual allegation without an understanding of what the person means by that. It is a vague statement that could mean more faded paint, or dangerous debris falling around the players. The vague statement could be true(paint is more faded), and not be anywhere close to a Title IX violation. It could be that GT is violating Title IX. It could be that CMJ is over exaggerating things. It could be that CMJ is making things up to try to get a settlement out of GT. At this point, I don't have enough information to take a position at all. However, I would say that CMJ's attitude that TStan, GTAA support staff, and her players are all coordinating a witch hunt to discredit her for her heroic stances toward gender equity does not increase her credibility in my view.

The team was fairly successful, which doesn't really jive with all the players hating the coach. Have been through numerous legal situation, including being an "expert" witness.....it is pretty easy for attorneys to manipulate the questioning to get the answers they want. By no means do I think what the coach claims is 100% accurate either. As I said before...the truth likely lies somewhere in the middle.

 

[Animal02]

Did you read the internal investigative report?

Do you believe that it only states that she cursed at the players? Which men's program coach is allowed to pick one player per practice and berate that player non-stop during the practice with cursing? If you are saying that the men's coaches do exactly what CMJ is accused of, then you are saying that at least one of them does that.

Did you bother to read the post I was replying to?

 

[RonJohn]

Obviously GT has grounds for termination but that is not what this lawsuit’s going to be about. Joseph and her lawyer will attack every aspect of GT in an attempt to get money & they will be successful from what I can tell. My company just settled out of court with a person that was medically disqualified from working by 3 different doctors. It was cheaper to settle than go thru years of legal wrangling where the individual brought out every sliver of evidence that needed to be refuted,

Here as evidence from the other side we have:
A. Alleged unaddressed claims of Title 9 inconsistent polices over a multi-year period which allegedly were unanswered, not just unaddressed. That’s problematic.
B. You have texts, names redacted, but probably some of the same individuals claiming she was mean, etc. How do you reconcile a favorable email which is enduring evidence vs a verbal recollection. Some what problematic.
C. There did not appear to be any checking into staff emails & facebook, etc by this investigative attorney GT hired. That is very curious as it should have been ripe for damaging info on Joseph.
D. There were other independent advisors, psychologists, etc that refuted the investigator’s report. Add that to where was GT’s oversight all these years.
E. You’ve got the timing of the firing with the barrage of complaints by Joseph. A normal tactic by someone believing the hammer was coming down. However, the optics is not good.

Not anti-GT’s actions in totality, but it’s far from 1 100% to 0% case here and you’re going to be dealing with a jury that could or could not be sympathetic to a women’s claim of no support and discrimination. This one looks to me like 67% to 33% which is way to close to the magic 50% to make it a slam dunk. GT buys their way out of this. I hope they do it quickly for the sake of the Women’s Basketball team and our Athletics Department’s health. These things spawn off other side effects.

I think her response is most likely an attempt at a settlement with a non disclosure attached to it. If a gets that, it will be much easier to get another job. I doubt it goes to a jury.

 

[Animal02]

Obviously GT has grounds for termination but that is not what this lawsuit’s going to be about. Joseph and her lawyer will attack every aspect of GT in an attempt to get money & they will be successful from what I can tell. My company just settled out of court with a person that was medically disqualified from working by 3 different doctors. It was cheaper to settle than go thru years of legal wrangling where the individual brought out every sliver of evidence that needed to be refuted,

Here as evidence from the other side we have:
A. Alleged unaddressed claims of Title 9 inconsistent polices over a multi-year period which allegedly were unanswered, not just unaddressed. That’s problematic.
B. You have texts, names redacted, but probably some of the same individuals claiming she was mean, etc. How do you reconcile a favorable email which is enduring evidence vs a verbal recollection. Some what problematic.
C. There did not appear to be any checking into staff emails & facebook, etc by this investigative attorney GT hired. That is very curious as it should have been ripe for damaging info on Joseph.
D. There were other independent advisors, psychologists, etc that refuted the investigator’s report. Add that to where was GT’s oversight all these years.
E. You’ve got the timing of the firing with the barrage of complaints by Joseph. A normal tactic by someone believing the hammer was coming down. However, the optics is not good.

Not anti-GT’s actions in totality, but it’s far from 1 100% to 0% case here and you’re going to be dealing with a jury that could or could not be sympathetic to a women’s claim of no support and discrimination. This one looks to me like 67% to 33% which is way to close to the magic 50% to make it a slam dunk. GT buys their way out of this. I hope they do it quickly for the sake of the Women’s Basketball team and our Athletics Department’s health. These things spawn off other side effects.

Very well stated. One other factor, if this were to make it in front of a jury.....it would be presented as one woman fight the big institution (full of evil white males)