So what did Joseph do?

[YlJacket]

NM

 

[smokey_wasp]

I do think it is interesting from the report that all 13 of the current players were interviewed. 9 of the 13 said they do not trust anyone on the coaching staff. All 13 said that they do not trust Joseph.

And that is going to destroy her claim that she was fired for retaliation, IMO. No one is going to believe those players were somehow pressured into making those statements.

 

[YlJacket]

FYI - I doubt there is a GT employee standard that says you have to have the "trust" of any or all of your team. I can understand not wanting to keep a coach they don't "trust" but that would be a firing similar to not winning enough - that lack of trust I doubt is a fireable offense for cause.

 

[awbuzz]

My thought is that if WBB barely breaks even or loses money, is this exposure worth having the program. It looks like they don’t have to offer WBB just because they offer MBB. Regardless, it was just a passing thought. Surely there are other programs, men and women, that are in the same boat.

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/inclusion/title-ix-frequently-asked-questions#athletics


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Title IX pretty much means keep the program, add another women's program for head count or drop a men's program. If I understand it correctly.

 

[RonJohn]

FYI - I doubt there is a GT employee standard that says you have to have the "trust" of any or all of your team. I can understand not wanting to keep a coach they don't "trust" but that would be a firing similar to not winning enough - that lack of trust I doubt is a fireable offense for cause.

I wasn't attempting to say that. However, the statement from Joseph's lawyer almost says that the only problem with the WBB team is that the GTAA was retaliating against Joseph for speaking up about gender equity issues. If not a single player on the team trusts the head coach, and 70% don't trust anyone on the coaching staff, that seems to indicate that there are further issues than retaliation for speaking up. The statement also says that she unequivocally did not treat the players the way described in the investigative report. If 100%, or 70%, or even 50% of the players actually claim that she did in fact treat the players that way, it further damages her credibility.

From the portions of the report that I have read(which the news organizations say are the worst parts of the report), the thing that seems to be most egregious is picking on one player for a practice/day. At least in my opinion, there is a big difference between yelling and cursing at a player when he makes a mistake and picking one player and berating them for the entire day. Directing all of the negative energy towards one individual player for an entire practice/day seems more like bullying to me than coaching. The report indicates that when a player was "in it", that the coach would find "any perceived issues or mistakes" by that player and subject that player to "extreme cursing and yelling".

 

[smokey_wasp]

FYI - I doubt there is a GT employee standard that says you have to have the "trust" of any or all of your team. I can understand not wanting to keep a coach they don't "trust" but that would be a firing similar to not winning enough - that lack of trust I doubt is a fireable offense for cause.

Depends on the reason for the loss of trust. In this case, the reason is alleged abuse and that is definitely fireable.

 

[awbuzz]

A couple left the team, but, according to what was released, EVERY player on the team had complained about the treatment.

And the key here is that EVERY player did or didn't feel comfortable. Not just 2,3,4,5 or even 6, but all of them.

Note I have not read further than the quoted post, so apologies if this has been hammered home already.

 

[awbuzz]

Before I read Coach Joseph's response, I had looked up the Investigator and my first thought was that he seems inexperienced. Here is official bio. He has been a lawyer for 5 years.

And I guess the perception of the lack of years of experience means they did not do a good job?

 

[YellowJacketFan2018]

Georgia Tech needs to hire Tina Langley of Rice or Kellie Jollie Harper of Missouri State to be the next women's head basketball coach

 

[Texwood]

After finally getting a chance to read the third party report, the most damaging thing for CMJ is that her student athletes claim she routinely used personal insults (completely unrelated to basketball) in a pathological effort to motivate them. If those student athletes are willing to testify as such in pre trial depositions, there will be no settlement and GTAA easily wins if her counsel makes the incompetent decision to go to trial. It's no wonder that all 13 of her players don't trust her...

 

[ESPNjacket]

FYI - I doubt there is a GT employee standard that says you have to have the "trust" of any or all of your team. I can understand not wanting to keep a coach they don't "trust" but that would be a firing similar to not winning enough - that lack of trust I doubt is a fireable offense for cause.

Maybe I am missing something but I can't think of a better reason to fire a coach. If not one player can trust the coach how could anyone in the sport ever succeed?

This is what happened with Bill Lewis, by the way.

 

[ESPNjacket]

After finally getting a chance to read the third party report, the most damaging thing for CMJ is that her student athletes claim she routinely used personal insults (completely unrelated to basketball) in a pathological effort to motivate them..

In other words, Full Mangino.

 

[RonJohn]

Before I read Coach Joseph's response, I had looked up the Investigator and my first thought was that he seems inexperienced. Here is official bio. He has been a lawyer for 5 years.

He has speciality in "Education specific issues and concerns including Title IX, compliance, threat assessment, and student concerns". He works at a 1500 attorney law firm. I would assume that he has processes, procedures, and backup from his very large law firm.

 

[Texwood]

In other words, Full Mangino.

Much more succinct

 

[RonJohn]

In other words, Full Mangino.

It is also alleged that she did things to isolate the players, such as requiring a player to miss a team outing for extra study hall, then telling the rest of the team on the outing that the player didn't want to go on the outing with them. There were allegations from some of the players(that he investigator could not confirm) that the psychologist that she brought to the team gave her information from sessions that the players were required to submit to with him.

As I said the allegations weren't described as proven in the document, but even allegations of trying to isolate teammates and using medically protected information(that the coach shouldn't even have access to) publicly in practice are extremely disturbing.

 

[Animal02]

What actual allegations of different standards are being raised? The document provided by Joseph's lawyer says that she complained that Joseph complained that:

• The WBB assistant coaches don't make as much as the men's assistant coaches.
• WBB isn't marketed as much as men't
• The locker room isn't as good
• The travel isn't as good

Later in the document it is alleged that someone(an administrator) denied a request for some sophomore players to live off campus even though some men's sophomores live off campus. The document says that the request was later granted.
​

I don't believe that Title IV requires that coaches of women's programs make the same amount of money as coaches of men's teams. I don't believe it requires that athletic departments market women's programs as much as men's programs. I would say that at least from my standpoint, it appears that GT markets the women's basketball program quite a bit. The locker rooms for women's and men's basketball are neither one in good shape. TStan has been working on getting money raised to fix both of the programs' locker rooms. I don't know what he travel arrangements for either program are, so I can't comment on whether one is better than the other or by what margin if they are.

The thing that sticks out most to me are the statements about the girls who complained. TStan says that two players complained to GTAA legal about Joseph. According to TStan he had no knowledge of any wrongdoing or accusations before the complaint. According to Joseph, TStan and the administrator both showed up at Virginia game and one of them had "conversations" with her players. She insinuates that these "conversations" led to the complaints. If the players went to GTAA legal without prodding from the GTAA, then Joseph's argument is pretty much broken. If TStan or someone from the GTAA pushed the players to go to legal, then TStan's arguments are greatly weakened.

It is worth noting that the complaint about the investigator compares him to Ken Waintein who conducted investigation into the academic scandal at UNC. A personnel matter vs an issue that affected not only the athletic department at UNC, but the entire university. That is similar to complaints that GT's QB isn't good enough. Look the Patriots have Tom Brady, why can't we use someone like him.

We haven't seen the GT report on Joseph, and likely never will. The response by Joseph's lawyer is vague in the allegations of gender inequality. I expect that Joseph will be trying to get a settlement out of GT, and that this will all be resolved by lawyer negotiations. I would assume that this was expected by the GTAA which brings up the question: If there is nothing to the complaints and investigation, why didn't TStan just wait until the end of the season and fire her? That would have been less expensive to the GTAA.

EDIT: I take that back, portions of the report are posted online. I am about to read as much of it as I can.

"Title IX requires the equal treatment of female and male student-athletes in the provisions of: (a) equipment and supplies; (b) scheduling of games and practice times; (c) travel and daily allowance/per diem; (d) access to tutoring; (e) coaching, (f) locker rooms, practice and competitive facilities; (g) medical and training facilities and services; (h) housing and dining facilities and services; (i) publicity and promotions; (j) support services and (k) recruitment of student-athletes."

If the allegations are even halfway close to true.....regarding locker rooms, travel, off campus housing, then GTAA is going to be hurt bad.
As far as allegations being vague.....if the allegations had been addressed 6-9 months before...GTAA is going to be hurt bad. If T Stan has his hand in this....he will be out the door....and rightly so.

 

[RonJohn]

"Title IX requires the equal treatment of female and male student-athletes in the provisions of: (a) equipment and supplies; (b) scheduling of games and practice times; (c) travel and daily allowance/per diem; (d) access to tutoring; (e) coaching, (f) locker rooms, practice and competitive facilities; (g) medical and training facilities and services; (h) housing and dining facilities and services; (i) publicity and promotions; (j) support services and (k) recruitment of student-athletes."

If the allegations are even halfway close to true.....regarding locker rooms, travel, off campus housing, then GTAA is going to be hurt bad.
As far as allegations being vague.....if the allegations had been addressed 6-9 months before...GTAA is going to be hurt bad. If T Stan has his hand in this....he will be out the door....and rightly so.

What allegations specifically?

• The coaches don't make as much? -- not a requirement
• Not marketed as much? -- Not a requirement
• The locker rooms aren't as good? -- We know that neither teams locker rooms are good and the GTAA is working on funding for both-- EDIT:I don't know if the women's locker room is worse or not.
• The travel isn't as good? -- What are the specific travel arrangements for men and women? What are the specifics around scheduling the travel? EDIT: -- is the per diem different for men vs women?
• Off campus housing? -- The allegation is that they were denied by some administrator, and then later allowed, so never actually treated differently.

What specific allegations are you referring to?

 

[YlJacket]

Maybe I am missing something but I can't think of a better reason to fire a coach. If not one player can trust the coach how could anyone in the sport ever succeed?

This is what happened with Bill Lewis, by the way.

Fire him or her all day long. I would agree. Lewis wasn't fired for cause.

Fire them for cause and not pay the rest of the contract is what I am referring to. Watching Joseph's lawyer and reading the response, my opinion is this will be a gradu show not worth the $150K or so they owe her.

 

[Animal02]

What allegations specifically?

• The coaches don't make as much? -- not a requirement
• Not marketed as much? -- Not a requirement
• The locker rooms aren't as good? -- We know that neither teams locker rooms are good and the GTAA is working on funding for both-- EDIT:I don't know if the women's locker room is worse or not.
• The travel isn't as good? -- What are the specific travel arrangements for men and women? What are the specifics around scheduling the travel? EDIT: -- is the per diem different for men vs women?
• Off campus housing? -- The allegation is that they were denied by some administrator, and then later allowed, so never actually treated differently.

What specific allegations are you referring to?

<SIGH>
"Two weeks later, she said that she was told that sophomore team members could no longer live off-campus, even though she had previously received support for the policy, which her e-mail stated to be the standard treatment for men’s athletes at Tech."
"the condition of the locker room ;and the methods of travel."

As I have previously posted...IF these allegations are even close to being true.....the GTAA WILL be hurt bad. You can try to hand wave it away all you want but, but I know what side the FEDs will go to.

 

[Animal02]

He has speciality in "Education specific issues and concerns including Title IX, compliance, threat assessment, and student concerns". He works at a 1500 attorney law firm. I would assume that he has processes, procedures, and backup from his very large law firm.

Kind of funny....you seem to think a 1500 person law firm is special....I look at it as a "factory" A lawyer for 5 years with a specialty? Yeah....believe that if you want.......kids like that get chewed up and spit out. I see the same thing happen in engineering and architecture firms all the time.