Previous Offense and Recruiting

[Animal02]

I don't completely blame you for feeling that way about some here. I was actually for a change. Not because I thought CPJ couldn't win anymore, more because the program had gotten stale in general and it needed new energy. I actually like Collins. He would have been my choice for head coach from the options that were out there and I love what he is doing so far. I am kinda on the opposite of you in that I just don't like the subtle and sometimes not so subtle jabs at CPJ that are unnecessary. It seems like some still really want to prove that CPJ was an awful coach therefore every positive thing Collins does from now on will include some sly jab at CPJ to I guess prove themselves right. Cutcliffe went 4-7 against CPJ therefore he owned him and we had to make a change to alleviate this atrocity is a bit of a stretch to me. He had a streak against him. Good for him. Wake Forest beat FSU three years in a row recently. They lost 9 of the next 10 after that. Streaks happen. It doesn't mean CPJ wasn't going to beat Cutcliffe the next 5 years. It doesn't mean anything really.

Add to that the "fans" that constantly denigrated CPJ for years who now demand that anyone who dares question anything about the new coach, shut up and go sit in the back of the bus.

 

[Skeptic]

It's NOT running in plays from the sidelines and QBs scrambling to get OB.

Betcha if you put a stopwatch on it you'd find it takes just as long to waggle a call in as run it in. Part of Johnson's maneuver seemed to me was that he was watching the other sideline for substitutions before he dialed something up. I am afraid those looking for the miracle cure in a "pro style" offense are going to be disappointed.

I wouldn't worry about the BBs being fast enough. The main shotgun running plays don't require blazing speed to make them work, as long as the QB runs the ball too. There's a good deal of deception in a properly run shotgun spread if that happens. And our OC would be a fool if he doesn't make that a center piece of the O.

I assume that all that memo stuff is a joke. Hope so, since every winning football program is built around running the ball.

Yeah, a poor joke at that. And speaking of running the ball, I thought Clemson's last quarter 90-yard or so, clock killing drive was instructive in a couple of ways. I thought Clemson could have scored any time it wanted, but kept it on the ground for what might have been a mercy killing but instead -- to my untrained eye watching Alabama's players on the field and the sideline -- showed that even a national champion will quit. And it even showed in the coaching ranks along the sideline box. An eye-opener.

Whiskey keeps is saying 4 of 5 because it sounds better than last we were 1 SCORE FROM BEING SWEEP 5 BY DUKE.

Coaching is the only factor in all 5 games.

Looking back WAS our offense so great in 2014 that Coach and staff deserved a big salary increase and long term contract?
In 2014 we lost to Duke and beat 2 teams on last play desperation scramble pass.

In 2014 after the Duke unc defeats., 2 things happened that explain the last half of 2014 and 2015.

for the life of me I can't remember beating 2 teams on "last play scramble" passes. Who?

 

[deeznats]

Add to that the "fans" that constantly denigrated CPJ for years who now demand that anyone who dares question anything about the new coach, shut up and go sit in the back of the bus.

As a long time season ticket holder, last year was the first time I didn't even attempt to give away tickets to non-marquee matchups (Clemson, etc). There was absolutely no interest from anyone in my extended network to even go to a GT game for free. You don't even have to argue who was a better coach, who could win more, who was a better offensive mind, etc... nobody in general (except for die hard fans) cared about GT football anymore. While you may hate the hype and want to defend the way things were, I for one am extremely happy that some people might want to start going to games again. I don't think people demand you not question anything, people are just dumbfounded that you can't be excited about anything. Yes, Collins has to win to keep the hype up, but this stupid back and forth about coaches is just dumb. Let's be happy there is some excitement again. The UVA game at the end of the year this year was a true low for this program (since the mid 90s at least) as far as fan engagement.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

As a long time season ticket holder, last year was the first time I didn't even attempt to give away tickets to non-marquee matchups (Clemson, etc). There was absolutely no interest from anyone in my extended network to even go to a GT game for free. You don't even have to argue who was a better coach, who could win more, who was a better offensive mind, etc... nobody in general (except for die hard fans) cared about GT football anymore. While you may hate the hype and want to defend the way things were, I for one am extremely happy that some people might want to start going to games again. I don't think people demand you not question anything, people are just dumbfounded that you can't be excited about anything. Yes, Collins has to win to keep the hype up, but this stupid back and forth about coaches is just dumb. Let's be happy there is some excitement again. The UVA game at the end of the year this year was a true low for this program (since the mid 90s at least) as far as fan engagement.

Good point. But the bigger the hype the bigger the expectations. The bigger the expectations the greater the fall of you fail. New staff better win to back up the bluster. Hopefully the play on the field will make the hype look humble instead. They (the coaching staff) haven’t done anything on the field yet.

Maybe now is the right time to hype things to get fans excited and recruits interested. Maybe the staff will try to dial expectations back before Clemson. But if you are gonna talk big you either deliver or become a laughing stock.

 

[RickStromFan]

...

for the life of me I can't remember beating 2 teams on "last play scramble" passes. Who?

Ga Southern is the only one I remember that fits that.

 

[UgaBlows]

Betcha if you put a stopwatch on it you'd find it takes just as long to waggle a call in as run it in. Part of Johnson's maneuver seemed to me was that he was watching the other sideline for substitutions before he dialed something up. I am afraid those looking for the miracle cure in a "pro style" offense are going to be disappointed.

Yeah, a poor joke at that. And speaking of running the ball, I thought Clemson's last quarter 90-yard or so, clock killing drive was instructive in a couple of ways. I thought Clemson could have scored any time it wanted, but kept it on the ground for what might have been a mercy killing but instead -- to my untrained eye watching Alabama's players on the field and the sideline -- showed that even a national champion will quit. And it even showed in the coaching ranks along the sideline box. An eye-opener.

for the life of me I can't remember beating 2 teams on "last play scramble" passes. Who?

Just.Let.Go of the old and embrace the New...... we are here to help you recover if needed.

 

[jgtengineer]

Ga Southern is the only one I remember that fits that.

Well there were a couple that would have been without defensive collapses.

Vt 2012 I think or 2011 cant remember the drag route to hill with 17 seconds left. Comes to mind.

Uga 2016 might have ended with a run play but we dont win that game without the two big throws to stewart and searcy.


Vt 2014 the play that won it was the 4th and 15 conversion and then the post that setup the field goal. 4th and 15 was the game.

Now I get what you were saying about the hail Mary victories but they arent that common in any offense.

 

[RickStromFan]

Well there were a couple that would have been without defensive collapses.

Vt 2012 I think or 2011 cant remember the drag route to hill with 17 seconds left. Comes to mind.

Uga 2016 might have ended with a run play but we dont win that game without the two big throws to stewart and searcy.


Vt 2014 the play that won it was the 4th and 15 conversion and then the post that setup the field goal. 4th and 15 was the game.

Now I get what you were saying about the hail Mary victories but they arent that common in any offense.

My "Ga Southern" response was re: @iceeater1969 's assertion that we had 2 last-second pass-TD victories in 2014. I can only recall 1.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

My "Ga Southern" response was re: @iceeater1969 's assertion that we had 2 last-second pass-TD victories in 2014. I can only recall 1.

You are correct. We only had one in 2014. The 4th and 15 vs VT was on the next to last drive that ended in a TD to tie the game. We won the game after intercepting VT on their end of the field on the following drive and easily converted downs until we ran the clock down and Buttkicker nailed the FG.

We did win the uga game in 2014 on a last minute pass completion from Hutson Mason to DJ White, but I don't believe Mason was scrambling...

 

[gtrower]

Well there were a couple that would have been without defensive collapses.

Vt 2012 I think or 2011 cant remember the drag route to hill with 17 seconds left. Comes to mind.

Uga 2016 might have ended with a run play but we dont win that game without the two big throws to stewart and searcy.


Vt 2014 the play that won it was the 4th and 15 conversion and then the post that setup the field goal. 4th and 15 was the game.

Now I get what you were saying about the hail Mary victories but they arent that common in any offense.

This is why I laugh at VT fans and their complete lack of understating of the game. Foster would cheat his safeties up and/or blitz his corners almost every play. But their fans would always complain about us hitting “lucky” passes against them and Foster needing to adjust.

In 2014 on the drive we tied the game we hit Smelter WIDE open for the TD because they blitzed the CB on his side and the safety but on the pump fake. But if you watch the play before the exact same thing happened on Waller’s side and he would have walked into the end zone if not for the VT DT busting through the OL to affect the throw.

In 2017 their safeties weren’t even pretending to play pass. We had WRs 10 yards behind coverage on 3 separate occasions. And hit 2 of them for long TDs. And again VT fans appalled at how Foster let that happen after praising his defense of our run game.

Same thing was there against Clemson over the years too. Their DL has just been so obscenely overmatching that we didn’t have time to get the ball out.

But anyway, the thing I’ll miss most about the option is shoving it down VTs throats these last 5 years.

 

[RickStromFan]

You are correct. We only had one in 2014. The 4th and 15 vs VT was on the next to last drive that ended in a TD to tie the game. We won the game after intercepting VT on their end of the field on the following drive and easily converted downs until we ran the clock down and Buttkicker nailed the FG.

We did win the uga game in 2014 on a last minute pass completion from Hutson Mason to DJ White, but I don't believe Mason was scrambling...

LMAO - I didn't count the mutt Pick as a completion but I guess you're technically correct

 

[takethepoints]

As far as the "losing 4 out of 5 to Duke" issue, let's keep in mind how the scheduling went just before the Duke-GT game over the last 5 years:

2014 @ GT (L) — Duke: bye — GT: vs.Miami
2015 @Duke (L) — Duke: vs.#23 Northwestern — GT: @#11 Notre Dame
2016 @GT (W) — Duke: bye — GT: bye
2017 @Duke (L) — Duke: @Army — GT: vs.#24 VT
2018 @GT (L) — Duke: bye — GT: @ Louisville

In every one of those four losses, the random vagaries of scheduling(*) managed to hand Duke an advantage over us: two flat-out byes, giving them 2 weeks to heal up and game-plan against us; a tuneup game against another option team, again giving them 2 weeks to prepare; and a game where we played a top-15 team on the road while they played a top-25 team at home. Over those five years, every single time they played us in BDS, they came in with two weeks of rest(**). The only time the bye didn't help them was the time when we had the extra week, too. On the flip side, both times we've gone into Somnambulist Stadium, we were coming off a game against a ranked team.

So it's not exactly like we were losing to Duke on a level playing field. If you were to reverse all of those advantages, it's not unreasonable to guess that you'd also reverse the W-L ratio.

(*) a.k.a. Cutcliffe's compromising photographs of someone in the ACC Front Office.
(**) How much do you want to bet that Duke gets another bye before they play us in 2020?

[Edit-1: @iceeater1969: I (respectfully) disagree that coaching was the only factor in all 5 games.]

[Edit-2: looking back even further, I see that Duke also had a bye before they played us in 2012—so that's four consecutive byes before they played us at BDS.]

What all this angst about Duke forgets is the role of sheer luck in football, especially when teams are roughly equivalent.

The last year's game against Duke as an example. We were driving down field in traditional TO fashion with the BBs averaging around 4 ypc and the OL pushing them easily. Then Howard dropped the ball. Next play: Jones hits for a TD. Subsequent play: Thomas shows that he was a freshman and drops the ball at the 5. Game over.

Was this because Duke was the better team? No. They were good - especially Jones, who I am very glad to see gone - but so were we. And what happened? They got the breaks they needed and we didn't.

It's a trait among humans that they tend to want to find explanations for what are usually chance occurrences. I've mentioned Duncan Watts's Everything Is Obvious (Once You Know the Answer): How Common Sense Fails Us here before; everyone should read it. One of his main points is the way we try to find explanations ("Cut is in CPJ's head!") for what is usually just the random variation of how human institutions work. Duke has upped their game, mainly by spending more money on recruiting. But their results were not better then ours, as I showed in a post about 6 months ago. If Duke was just whipping our pants off - like Ugag has over the last two years - I'd say that it was because we don't have the same level of talent. But our games have been close, either way. When a series evolves like that, we can be upset; I know I was last year. But that isn't really telling us much except that we haven't been investing in recruiting the way we should have, they've gotten slightly better, and the ball bounced their way. You can be disappointed about that, but, imho, it doesn't make much sense to get depressed about it.

 

[Animal02]

What all this angst about Duke forgets is the role of sheer luck in football, especially when teams are roughly equivalent.

The last year's game against Duke as an example. We were driving down field in traditional TO fashion with the BBs averaging around 4 ypc and the OL pushing them easily. Then Howard dropped the ball. Next play: Jones hits for a TD. Subsequent play: Thomas shows that he was a freshman and drops the ball at the 5. Game over.

Was this because Duke was the better team? No. They were good - especially Jones, who I am very glad to see gone - but so were we. And what happened? They got the breaks they needed and we didn't.

It's a trait among humans that they tend to want to find explanations for what are usually chance occurrences. I've mentioned Duncan Watts's Everything Is Obvious (Once You Know the Answer): How Common Sense Fails Us here before; everyone should read it. One of his main points is the way we try to find explanations ("Cut is in CPJ's head!") for what is usually just the random variation of how human institutions work. Duke has upped their game, mainly by spending more money on recruiting. But their results were not better then ours, as I showed in a post about 6 months ago. If Duke was just whipping our pants off - like Ugag has over the last two years - I'd say that it was because we don't have the same level of talent. But our games have been close, either way. When a series evolves like that, we can be upset; I know I was last year. But that isn't really telling us much except that we haven't been investing in recruiting the way we should have, they've gotten slightly better, and the ball bounced their way. You can be disappointed about that, but, imho, it doesn't make much sense to get depressed about it.

Not so random were bad and missed called by the Refs in Duke's favor.

 

[g0lftime]

Refs can call holding on every play if they want. It is when it is called at a critical time that it is so frustrating. We had chop blocks called on us when a player fell unintentionally into an engaged player. Players adjust to how the game is called but some of the zebras are not consistent.

 

[RickStromFan]

Refs can call holding on every play if they want. It is when it is called at a critical time that it is so frustrating. We had chop blocks called on us when a player fell unintentionally into an engaged player. Players adjust to how the game is called but some of the zebras are not consistent.

Blaming the refs is usually the last resort of fans seeking to make excuses for losing and is just lame paranoia. There are bad calls made every game against both teams.

 

[g0lftime]

Blaming the refs is usually the last resort of fans seeking to make excuses for losing and is just lame paranoia. There are bad calls made every game against both teams.

Tell that to the Saints in the playoff.

 

[RickStromFan]

Tell that to the Saints in the playoff.

Passing 2 of 3 downs in that situation was asinine. Plus, they got the lead when they made the FG. Their D lost that game when they subsequently spread their legs for the Ram offense more than that terrible no-call.

 

[Skeptic]

Just.Let.Go of the old and embrace the New...... we are here to help you recover if needed.

Let what go? Did I catch something loose in the hen house? All I know for sure is that a "pro style offense" is to "new" what the Green Bay sweep was to deception, and Collins 2-year record at a mid-major was 15-10, or kind of okay. His hiring by GT indicated to me that Tech is not a glamor magnet for top coaching prospects, and please, please spare me the "they got a Tech man" defense. I like a couple of his hires, with the caveat that we don't really know if they can coach or even recruit, And am I wrong -- I can be, you know -- but was not Geoff Collins the architect of that Mississippi State Defense that Georgia Tech shredded in the 2016 Orange Bowl? (Not that I would hold bolting from Starkville against him.) I'll forgive a lot of sins if he can win. And that is the only sales job that counts.

 

[UgaBlows]

Let what go? Did I catch something loose in the hen house? All I know for sure is that a "pro style offense" is to "new" what the Green Bay sweep was to deception, and Collins 2-year record at a mid-major was 15-10, or kind of okay. His hiring by GT indicated to me that Tech is not a glamor magnet for top coaching prospects, and please, please spare me the "they got a Tech man" defense. I like a couple of his hires, with the caveat that we don't really know if they can coach or even recruit, And am I wrong -- I can be, you know -- but was not Geoff Collins the architect of that Mississippi State Defense that Georgia Tech shredded in the 2016 Orange Bowl? (Not that I would hold bolting from Starkville against him.) I'll forgive a lot of sins if he can win. And that is the only sales job that counts.

Are you pulling for him and this team to succeed or not?

 

[Skeptic]

Are you pulling for him and this team to succeed or not?

Of course I am. Hell, I even pulled for the Lewis teams. How much more loyal can one be? I am just not turning cartwheels over what I see as a desperation hire. I am not much of a Koolaid drinker, at least since my kindergarten years. The AD could have done much better, in my opinion. But what's done is done and as long as he wins I was rooting for him all the time, Butch. His work is cut out for him for several reasons, among them the unspoken drive in the ACC to catch up to Clemson, and a lot of coaches, themselves recent hires, are under the gun to win now. Even Clemson is driving to strengthen the conference because they know right now the ACC runner-up, unlike the SEC, won't be in the playoffs. FSU, Virginia, VT, Pittsburgh, Miami and UNC are going all out to get back in the hunt. The Techs and the Dukes are in danger of being roadkill. Conference strength was illustrated when NC State, a "strong" conference team, was rolled by Clemson.