Paul Johnson time frame.

What gets CPJ fired or encouraged to resign?


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RonJohn

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Rankings in general are junk though, right? #2 vs #8 in the country right now...its all speculative. But we only pick on recruiting rankings because we don't recruit well, is what I'm saying.

For me personally, it isn't about how GT does or doesn't do. I look at things very analytically:
  • Recruiting rankings are a crap shoot after the very top tier of recruits. Every thing else that the recruiting sites do is purely to drive traffic to make money. They don't have some mystical powers to rank recruits against each other.
  • Lines from Vegas are all about evening out the money. They don't have some mystical powers, or vast knowledge base to determine what the actual spread in a game will end up at. They have a database about how much money was placed on each team in the past, and can determine how likely gamblers are to bet on each side.
In both of those situations, it isn't a "feeling" that leads me to a conclusion that the numbers given are very arbitrary. For recruiting rankings, it is the fact that the services do not have the time, money, or access to be able to generate accurate ratings of players. For Vegas lines, it is the fact that the business of the casinos requires relatively even money on teams and does not require accurate predictions to winners or spreads. GT doesn't do well in the recruiting site rankings. However, it isn't a feeling of rejection that makes me skeptical, it is purely an analytical analysis. GT is favored by 6.5 points against UVA. However, my analytical view of spreads makes me discount that as any kind of real prediction about the game.

EDIT: I am an engineer, and that is how I approach looking at things. When I get excited during games, I jump and scream. When I am analyzing something, I look at what facts I can see and stay away from any "mystical" explanations.
 

MikeJackets1967

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For me personally, it isn't about how GT does or doesn't do. I look at things very analytically:
  • Recruiting rankings are a crap shoot after the very top tier of recruits. Every thing else that the recruiting sites do is purely to drive traffic to make money. They don't have some mystical powers to rank recruits against each other.
  • Lines from Vegas are all about evening out the money. They don't have some mystical powers, or vast knowledge base to determine what the actual spread in a game will end up at. They have a database about how much money was placed on each team in the past, and can determine how likely gamblers are to bet on each side.
In both of those situations, it isn't a "feeling" that leads me to a conclusion that the numbers given are very arbitrary. For recruiting rankings, it is the fact that the services do not have the time, money, or access to be able to generate accurate ratings of players. For Vegas lines, it is the fact that the business of the casinos requires relatively even money on teams and does not require accurate predictions to winners or spreads. GT doesn't do well in the recruiting site rankings. However, it isn't a feeling of rejection that makes me skeptical, it is purely an analytical analysis. GT is favored by 6.5 points against UVA. However, my analytical view of spreads makes me discount that as any kind of real prediction about the game.
I think GT will win by 6 points walking away with a 30-24 win over Wahoos:cigar:
 

BCJacket

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I do agree that it's good for us to do something different than the competition, but recruiting does suffer somewhat. It's a trade-off, and one that I think works in our favor. Somewhat.

I don't agree that the star ratings are purely a product of who wants who. There's some fan base bias, but if that was the predominant factor there wouldn't be the strong correlation between top-ten teams and top-ten recruiting. You'll find exceptions, but in general the correlation is strong.

My point wasn't that recruiting rankings are totally inaccurate, or just based on fan base perception. Like I said, they wind up being a proxy for identifying talent (in hindsight). But they are an effect, not a cause. Alabama isn't offering kids because they are 5-stars. They're offering them because their scouts have identified that kid as a top tier talent for their system. The ranking services are giving the kid a star rating based on the consensus of the top programs of a kids value. The top programs are getting top tier athletes because they are top programs. Those kids are rated "5*'s" because the top programs highly desire them.

So, yes, there is a direct correlation between top programs, top talent, recruiting rankings and success. But the ratings are more an evaluation of the schools, not the individual players.

My point was in questioning how Tech should measure recruiting success. Looking at star ratings alone, we're not considering how our staff evaluates a player as a fit for our system. Especially on offense. We're using a proxy score that's designed for NFL-style systems. There is absolutely overlap. Give us Alabama's O-Line and our offense would be unstoppable. Julio Jones and Calvin Johnson would be monsters in any system...

But Trevor Lawrence would be a poor fit at QB for us. If our program was strong enough to attract 'Trevor Lawrence's then we'd be best served running the system those players want to play in (ie NFL prep). But there is not a realistic scenario where in the near future we are regularly competing head-to-head with uGA, Bama, Clemson, etc for top recruits.

Bottom line, we recruit a lot of guys who are 'athletes' and 'tweeners'. Searcy was rated as a low 3* CB, because that was his 'best fit' for the prevailing system. Lynch was a 2* WR. If the prevailing system were the Flexbone, those guys would have been high 3 or 4* A-back prospects. JeT and James Graham were both 3-4*s as defense-prospect athletes (even though they played quarterback, they weren't a 'fit' for QB at the next level. IIRC JeT was not a 4* 'DB' until Bama offered. Graham was unranked until he committed to VT.) They're 5* material for Tech at QB.

I'm not saying we're a stealth top-15 recruiting powerhouse. But our offensive results have consistently outperformed our "ranking". To get back to my original question "how should we evaluate recruiting success?" I think we have to look at whether we're getting the guys our coaches want, not if we're getting the guys other coaches want. How are we performing with the kids we get, doing what we're trying to do? (Which has been pretty good on offense most years.)
 

panther42

Jolly Good Fellow
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If I remember correctly they had Calvin Johnson on that team. Best WR ever!
best play that day was....calvin run a post pattern....have reggie underthrow him by 10 yards....calvin runs back to ball....db that was 5 yards behind running full speed heads down runs into calvin....we get 15 yard passing interference call!
 

bobongo

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My point wasn't that recruiting rankings are totally inaccurate, or just based on fan base perception. Like I said, they wind up being a proxy for identifying talent (in hindsight). But they are an effect, not a cause. Alabama isn't offering kids because they are 5-stars. They're offering them because their scouts have identified that kid as a top tier talent for their system. The ranking services are giving the kid a star rating based on the consensus of the top programs of a kids value. The top programs are getting top tier athletes because they are top programs. Those kids are rated "5*'s" because the top programs highly desire them.

So, yes, there is a direct correlation between top programs, top talent, recruiting rankings and success. But the ratings are more an evaluation of the schools, not the individual players.

My point was in questioning how Tech should measure recruiting success. Looking at star ratings alone, we're not considering how our staff evaluates a player as a fit for our system. Especially on offense. We're using a proxy score that's designed for NFL-style systems. There is absolutely overlap. Give us Alabama's O-Line and our offense would be unstoppable. Julio Jones and Calvin Johnson would be monsters in any system...

But Trevor Lawrence would be a poor fit at QB for us. If our program was strong enough to attract 'Trevor Lawrence's then we'd be best served running the system those players want to play in (ie NFL prep). But there is not a realistic scenario where in the near future we are regularly competing head-to-head with uGA, Bama, Clemson, etc for top recruits.

Bottom line, we recruit a lot of guys who are 'athletes' and 'tweeners'. Searcy was rated as a low 3* CB, because that was his 'best fit' for the prevailing system. Lynch was a 2* WR. If the prevailing system were the Flexbone, those guys would have been high 3 or 4* A-back prospects. JeT and James Graham were both 3-4*s as defense-prospect athletes (even though they played quarterback, they weren't a 'fit' for QB at the next level. IIRC JeT was not a 4* 'DB' until Bama offered. Graham was unranked until he committed to VT.) They're 5* material for Tech at QB.

I'm not saying we're a stealth top-15 recruiting powerhouse. But our offensive results have consistently outperformed our "ranking". To get back to my original question "how should we evaluate recruiting success?" I think we have to look at whether we're getting the guys our coaches want, not if we're getting the guys other coaches want. How are we performing with the kids we get, doing what we're trying to do? (Which has been pretty good on offense most years.)

I agree about our recruiting; we have outperformed our ranking by a good margin. That's a good point, and the value of a recruit is certainly enhanced by fitting his skills with the scheme.
Not sure whether I agree that the 5* are 5* because the top programs want them. It's like a chicken and egg question - which came first? Maybe neither one came first. The top programs want them because they are good, and they are 5* for the same reason. Although I do acknowledge that there is some bias that creeps into these rankings.
 

RonJohn

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Not sure whether I agree that the 5* are 5* because the top programs want them. It's like a chicken and egg question - which came first? Maybe neither one came first. The top programs want them because they are good, and they are 5* for the same reason. Although I do acknowledge that there is some bias that creeps into these rankings.

What some of us are saying is that the highlighted portion of your post is the reason that the recruiting services rank the 5 stars as high as they do. It isn't a chicken and egg scenario. Factory schools were recruiting players long before recruiting services existed or had star ratings. The schools recruiting most definitely came first.

I believe everyone has acknowledged that the elite players are relatively easy to spot. A person who doesn't like football could probably recognize that a 5 star player is a good player during a high school football game. I don't think that college programs(who spend more time and money looking at players) could determine which 5 star or high 4 star player is definitively better in most cases. They can determine which is a better fit for their program.

If you want to convince me that the rating services are accurate, you would need to demonstrate to me that how they arrive at like-for-like comparisons of all of the players. From what I understand: They watch game film(in which they can't realistically compare the level of competition); They go to scouting combines/events(which leaves out athletes who don't attend such events); They talk to high school coaches(but they can't talk to as many as all of the recruiting coordinators for NCAA teams do because there are more coaches and recruiting staff for colleges than there are recruiting service people), They talk to college coaches. None of those things provide me with confidence that they absolutely know the difference in ability of a player from Seattle vs a player from Atlanta.
 

BCJacket

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I agree about our recruiting; we have outperformed our ranking by a good margin. That's a good point, and the value of a recruit is certainly enhanced by fitting his skills with the scheme.
Not sure whether I agree that the 5* are 5* because the top programs want them. It's like a chicken and egg question - which came first? Maybe neither one came first. The top programs want them because they are good, and they are 5* for the same reason. Although I do acknowledge that there is some bias that creeps into these rankings.

I think you're right on this, that it's a bit of a circular thing. There probably is a feedback and herd mentality that creeps in as well. Also, a big part of recruiting for the big schools is showing their fans a "win" in February. You listen to talk radio and they talk about "winning those recruiting battles" as if they count for something.

My point on why the chicken (school's evaluations) come before the egg (recruiting rankings) is that the rankings change throughout the process; often right up until signing day. Largely based on the 'quality' of a players offer list.

If the Ranking sites submitted their evaluations at same point, say the end of the players' Junior year. Then they had to sit pat while the recruiting played out, it would be different. The 5*s are usually self-evident. But, you'd have 4*s whose recruiting cooled off and 3*s who "got hot". They just wouldn't get upgraded and downgraded as things went on. A lot of times, a player will get late offers from strong programs and all the sudden they add a star. Last year, C'Bo Flemister got downgraded when he committed to GaSo, then re-upgraded when ND came looking. James Graham was a 3* ATH/WR until he committed to VT, suddenly he was a 4* Dual Threat QB, because VT said so...
 

Truth

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So, after all is said and done, which coach and what process do the “new offense and new coach crowd” propose that will lead to success?
And, although I regularly say “let’s do something different, even if it is wrong”, I don’t really believe that is a formula for success!
 

MikeJackets1967

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So, after all is said and done, which coach and what process do the “new offense and new coach crowd” propose that will lead to success?
And, although I regularly say “let’s do something different, even if it is wrong”, I don’t really believe that is a formula for success!
The truth is Paul Johnson will probably be coaching the Yellow Jackets until probably 2021
 

iceeater1969

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The truth is Paul Johnson will probably be coaching the Yellow Jackets until probably 2021

Are we going to finish like 16 or line 17?
If 16 then for sure!

What a finish we have !

The 2 teams we play next have about as many power 5 victories as the 6 teams we have.

Be strong - Go Jackets.
 

MikeJackets1967

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Love your OPTIMISM-.
Just cause u are so darn optimistic I hope we go to the music city bowl and whip Tennessee.
Tqm revenge!
The Music City Bowl would be a great destination for GT and i hope they would play UT;) However the word i've heard on sports radio up here in Tennessee from Knoxvegas is a 7-5 Tennessee squad could wind up in the Taxslayer Gator Bowl:cigar:
 

LibertyTurns

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The Music City Bowl would be a great destination for GT and i hope they would play UT;) However the word i've heard on sports radio up here in Tennessee from Knoxvegas is a 7-5 Tennessee squad could wind up in the Taxslayer Gator Bowl:cigar:
When did Knoxville calling themselves Knoxvegas start? They may attract people from Pig Holler or Toof Brush but they certainly aren’t attracting anyone that has indoor plumbing.
 

MountainBuzzMan

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People from around Knoxville have referred to Knoxville as Knoxvegas for around 20 years at the very least LOL;):LOL:

My in-laws live in Oneida Tennessee. A town not convenient to anywhere. You know, the oil capital of Tennessee. A town that is proud to have the highest level of state supported disability checks mailed to its area residents. But when they really want to go to town they drive the 60 minutes east to go to Knoxvegas.
 
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