Option Football

[Ibeeballin]

I disagree. I think if we go Chadwell he will have the big money support as that seems to be what Cabrera and Batt want is full support behind a guy. If Paul had the money to spend that even Collins had he would still be here.

Both of these are incorrect

 

[jgtengineer]

It's real simple. Mills doesn't get fired and Tech wins 9 - 10 games for the next 3 seasons. And Paul is still coach.

Does Tech have to kick two of the field goals against UT? Does Taquon not pitch the ball in the second overtime? Not with Mills on the field.

Does Tech have a hard time running the ball down field against da U in the muck? Not with Mills on the field.

Does Tech have a hard time in the second half against UVA in the muck? Not with Mills on the field.

That gets us to 9. Tech would have won one more with Mills on the field.

The record that year had nothing to do with Taquon. And with Mills on the field Tech would have won 9 - 10 in 2019 and in 2020. Imho, of c

Um UT was 2017.

Not saying he wouldn't have helped in 2018 but benson was a pretty damn good BB as well we definitely suffered when he was hurt in 2018 against SF.

 

[LongforDodd]

.... If Paul had the money to spend that even Collins had he would still be here.

Paul could have had more. He was his own worst enemy.

 

[JacketFan137]

Paul could have had more. He was his own worst enemy.

yeah. at some point it is the coaches responsibility to get the backing of boosters/athletic department. that was an aspect of college coaching johnson was not strong at. it should not continue to be an excuse this many years later

 

[RonJohn]

Paul could have had more. He was his own worst enemy.

Maybe, but in 2014 he himself secured a $4 million donation and the AD refused to accept it.

I still think that the reason GT football got so far behind everyone else is that the AD in the mid-2010s was a coward. He wanted CPJ gone, but didn't have the courage to fire him. He intentionally drained the football program to try to force CPJ out. That put the football program years behind other football programs. That seemed to drain CPJ, and seemed to affect him until he retired. I don't know where the football program would be now if the AD had not intentionally damaged it, but I am certain that it would be better than it is now. Use that as a lesson for how to conduct business. Don't be passive-aggressive. If you are a leader and want to make a decision, then make it and move forward. Do not sabotage your underlings in order to gain a consensus on the decision you want to make.

 

[kittysniper101]

yeah. at some point it is the coaches responsibility to get the backing of boosters/athletic department. that was an aspect of college coaching johnson was not strong at. it should not continue to be an excuse this many years later

He asked, pretty publicly even, for additional support in recruiting and staff members and never got that. Collins comes in and immediately gets 3 extra assistants. Big boosters played dumb games with trying to “starve the beast” to get Johnson out and look at where it got us.

Both of these are incorrect

man if Chadwell isn’t the kind of guy boosters can rally around what are we even doing as a program? Every single program trying to swing their big money d**k around just puts us back at where we started. We simply won’t win that battle. Coaches salaries get higher and everybody ends up sorted by resources again. Fallacy of composition and all that.

 

[CEB]

Maybe, but in 2014 he himself secured a $4 million donation and the AD refused to accept it.

I still think that the reason GT football got so far behind everyone else is that the AD in the mid-2010s was a coward. He wanted CPJ gone, but didn't have the courage to fire him. He intentionally drained the football program to try to force CPJ out. That put the football program years behind other football programs. That seemed to drain CPJ, and seemed to affect him until he retired. I don't know where the football program would be now if the AD had not intentionally damaged it, but I am certain that it would be better than it is now. Use that as a lesson for how to conduct business. Don't be passive-aggressive. If you are a leader and want to make a decision, then make it and move forward. Do not sabotage your underlings in order to gain a consensus on the decision you want to make.

I am not familiar with a lot of this but very interesting to say the least.
I can’t believe we would do lasting damage to the program to run off one guy but I know nothing of it.
FWIW, I think CPJ was retiring regardless. Maybe it happened a year or two sooner because of other circumstances, but I don’t believe “he would still be here” as a few others have said. Maybe I’m wrong; no sense dying in that hill.
I will say it’s doubly a tragedy if he had a couple more years in him and we could’ve seen what CGC really was to become... that’s an opportunity I would have loved to miss.
All of that said; blank slate now. Let’s hope we are empowering the right people to start making decisions to rectify the wrongs of the last few years.

 

[JacketFan137]

do we have any proof other than pure conjecture that the program was starving itself to get rid of johnson?

 

[LongforDodd]

Maybe, but in 2014 he himself secured a $4 million donation and the AD refused to accept it.

I still think that the reason GT football got so far behind everyone else is that the AD in the mid-2010s was a coward. He wanted CPJ gone, but didn't have the courage to fire him. He intentionally drained the football program to try to force CPJ out. That put the football program years behind other football programs. That seemed to drain CPJ, and seemed to affect him until he retired. I don't know where the football program would be now if the AD had not intentionally damaged it, but I am certain that it would be better than it is now. Use that as a lesson for how to conduct business. Don't be passive-aggressive. If you are a leader and want to make a decision, then make it and move forward. Do not sabotage your underlings in order to gain a consensus on the decision you want to make.

I'm not being confrontational but am curious where you get all of what you assert. My statement is from two sources both alums of whom I've known for over 50 years (I actually started elementary school with both of them in about 1962... wow, that's actually 60 years) and who both have very strong connections to the school and the AA.

 

[slugboy]

do we have any proof other than pure conjecture that the program was starving itself to get rid of johnson?

It was discussed at the time that Bobinski was AD. The $4 million refused donation happened, but I don’t know all the details.

You would be safe to believe that MBob actively worked to sabotage Johnson.

 

[yeti92]

eh i don’t buy it. seems more like a rumor that started up from paul johnson cultists to make it seem like he was working against some oppressive forces to make his legacy/accomplishments seem greater.

i would wager reality is more in the middle. we could have backed him more and we didn’t. i don’t think we were tanking the program just cause of paul or we hated the option.

Whether you buy it or not, it happened and is now in the past. It has been discussed on here numerous times, probably before you joined.

 

[RickStromFan]

eh i don’t buy it. seems more like a rumor that started up from paul johnson cultists to make it seem like he was working against some oppressive forces to make his legacy/accomplishments seem greater.

i would wager reality is more in the middle. we could have backed him more and we didn’t. i don’t think we were tanking the program just cause of paul or we hated the option.

We built some sort of state-of-the-art strength-training or indoor practice facility for him around 2011 but recruiting didn't noticeably improve as a result. Recruiting never improved, even after the amazing seasons of '08,'09, and '14.

 

[RonJohn]

I'm not being confrontational but am curious where you get all of what you assert. My statement is from two sources both alums of whom I've known for over 50 years (I actually started elementary school with both of them in about 1962... wow, that's actually 60 years) and who both have very strong connections to the school and the AA.

I do have to say that it is all speculative. Some of it is more certain than others.

The $4 million donation: CPJ said on a radio show in either 2014 or 2015 that they had done preliminary arch/engineering for a new locker room. That CPJ and a donor, willing to pay the $4 million price tag, had gone to the AD to present the idea, but it was rejected. Not long after TStan came to GT, it was announced that an anonymous donor was paying for a new football locker room, which opened in 2018 I think. I was not involved, and did not personally speak to anyone involved. However, I think the coincidences are too large for it to not be the same donor. I think the coincidences are too large for it to not be the case that MBob turned down a $4 million donation that would have helped the football program, and very quickly after starting the job, TStan accepted it.

As to the sabotage, that is indeed more speculative. It is a combination of things such as: Locker room as described above. MBob's radio comments during 2014 which insinuated he was planning to fire CPJ at the end of the year. Rumors about a few large donors urging Mbob to fire CPJ. Begging, and sometimes publicly begging by CPJ for resources for the football program. (recruiting personnel, operations and travel staff, etc) Decline of spending on the football program during those years, even as athletic association revenue increased and the percentage of revenue spent on football declined compared to other ACC programs.

I don't have any inside information and did not personally witness anything directly incriminating by MBob. However, between DRad and TStan, the GT football program became the second lowest funded football program in the ACC. I haven't looked at percentages, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the lowest funded as a percentage of athletic association revenue. It didn't take long after MBob left to get funding for a better plane for the team to travel to Ireland. It appears that anything that CPJ asked for was denied. It also appears that funding wasn't the reason for denial. The locker room money was already available. The money for a better plane to travel in was found within a month. That leads me to believe that the reason for the denials was that MBob didn't want to provide CPJ of any requests.

 

[kittysniper101]

eh i don’t buy it. seems more like a rumor that started up from paul johnson cultists to make it seem like he was working against some oppressive forces to make his legacy/accomplishments seem greater.

i would wager reality is more in the middle. we could have backed him more and we didn’t. i don’t think we were tanking the program just cause of paul or we hated the option.

4 new assistants when Collins joined

Geoff Collins adds four support staff

Georgia Tech coach Geoff Collins has added four staff members, all with titles that did not exist on coach Paul Johnson’s staff. Collins brought all four – football research and analytics coordinator Pat Boyle, analysts Joe Battaglia (offense) and Ronell Williams (defense) and brand manager...

www.ajc.com

"I just think to me no matter where you are, the expectation level needs to meet the commitment," Johnson said

Paul Johnson happy with Georgia Tech marriage, wants more

Coach Paul Johnson, who's 47-32 in six seasons, talks about expectations for Georgia Tech, whether he's unhappy on the job and his fear of "Internet Legends"

www.cbssports.com

There were many of these comments made publicly which gives plenty of insight into the amount of support he got. It is what it is. I just can’t believe that people would still turn their nose up at an option adjacent scheme. Sticking to the status quo does nothing but keep us down. If people are afraid to do things differently then we’re just going to be a budget version of every other team.

 

[CEB]

eh i don’t buy it. seems more like a rumor that started up from paul johnson cultists to make it seem like he was working against some oppressive forces to make his legacy/accomplishments seem greater.

i would wager reality is more in the middle. we could have backed him more and we didn’t. i don’t think we were tanking the program just cause of paul or we hated the option.

That’s taking it to the other extreme...
There is nothing to be gained for CPJ or his proponents with message board tales of unfathomable heroics in the face of insurmountable odds.
The notion that someone within the organization would hamstring the program for any reason is beyond comprehension. Maybe MBob ought to be ponying up for the new coach...
hopefully the $4m eventually found its way to the program. To bad it’s probably part of the funds we’ve recently wasted...

 

[RonJohn]

I'm not being confrontational but am curious where you get all of what you assert. My statement is from two sources both alums of whom I've known for over 50 years (I actually started elementary school with both of them in about 1962... wow, that's actually 60 years) and who both have very strong connections to the school and the AA.

BTW, I am not trying to say that he was a spectacular fundraiser. My impression is that he is a strong willed person who says what he thinks and would refuse to bend his statements to kiss the ring. That could turn off some large donors. I have never met him, other than shake and greet meetings, but have talked to and read from people who have. They indicated that in person he was an honest and genuine person. I could see him easily raising money from people who know him and are not turned off by the offense or his unwillingness to do whatever they say. He was not a marketing guy, or a salesperson.

 

[MWBATL]

It's one piece of evidence, but it's strong evidence that we overrate recruiting and we underrate scheme.

Saints be praised. Some data supported arguments which support scheme.

 

[JacketFan137]

4 new assistants when Collins joined

Geoff Collins adds four support staff

Georgia Tech coach Geoff Collins has added four staff members, all with titles that did not exist on coach Paul Johnson’s staff. Collins brought all four – football research and analytics coordinator Pat Boyle, analysts Joe Battaglia (offense) and Ronell Williams (defense) and brand manager...

www.ajc.com

"I just think to me no matter where you are, the expectation level needs to meet the commitment," Johnson said

Paul Johnson happy with Georgia Tech marriage, wants more

Coach Paul Johnson, who's 47-32 in six seasons, talks about expectations for Georgia Tech, whether he's unhappy on the job and his fear of "Internet Legends"

www.cbssports.com

There were many of these comments made publicly which gives plenty of insight into the amount of support he got. It is what it is. I just can’t believe that people would still turn their nose up at an option adjacent scheme. Sticking to the status quo does nothing but keep us down. If people are afraid to do things differently then we’re just going to be a budget version of every other team.

i don’t disagree that we haven’t put up enough money into the football program. even with collins he wasn’t given the support and backing that many other coaches in our own conference get. everyone knows our facilities are middle of the road.

i don’t care who the coach is tech football needs more money and investment if we are serious about competing in the p5 level with our biggest rivals being uga and clemson.

i just disagree with this notion of starving out the program because it was paul or the option. that just makes no sense whatsoever and hurts literally every party involved. just seems like the constant retelling of this story with literally zero tangible proof is turning this into some paul bunyan tale of bravery

 

[JacketFan137]

If you look at my post earlier in the thread, Tennessee has on average pulled a top 15 class yearly since 2007. Their worst class was 33 back in 2008, and they've pulled as high as a #4 class in that time. They've consistently underperformed their recruiting ranking until hiring Heupel, who runs a modified high school scheme offense.

So, with every coach except one since 2007, Tennessee has significantly underperformed their recruiting ranking under multiple coaches, including one who won a national title. Heupel, with a scheme offense, is the only coach that has overperformed vs his recruiting ranking.

This year, with a scheme offense, is the first time Tennessee has beaten Alabama since 2006.

It's one piece of evidence, but it's strong evidence that we overrate recruiting and we underrate scheme.

i think the issue with all of this argument is what is and isn’t a “scheme”. the word here has sort of lost all meaning because most arguments are built around “we need a scheme on offense so we aren’t running what everyone else is running”. well everyone runs a scheme so this statement is effectively saying nothing.

what ole miss does isn’t too far from what we want to do they’re just better at it. no one here would say that’s a “scheme” offense though.

no one has ever said we don’t need a scheme on offense, it’s just most of the people saying scheme mean one thing and that’s the return of option football

 

[slugboy]

i don’t disagree that we haven’t put up enough money into the football program. even with collins he wasn’t given the support and backing that many other coaches in our own conference get. everyone knows our facilities are middle of the road.

i don’t care who the coach is tech football needs more money and investment if we are serious about competing in the p5 level with our biggest rivals being uga and clemson.

i just disagree with this notion of starving out the program because it was paul or the option. that just makes no sense whatsoever and hurts literally every party involved. just seems like the constant retelling of this story with literally zero tangible proof is turning this into some paul bunyan tale of bravery

It makes sense. When you don't want to pay a buyout, you handicap the coach so much that he wants to quit and does quit. It happens. It happens in regular corporations too.

You might think "I would never do that as an AD", but that doesn't mean ADs don't do that.