Moving On

[1974]

A coach I used to work with once told me "three things can happen when you pass and two of them are bad."

I'm not against throwing it more, but to me offense has not really been the issue.

 

[Skeptic]

I think we'll agree to disagree on this one.
But, think about how many 3rd and 6-7-8-9-10-etc we have converted by pass ... not many.
If we don't get the 4-5-6 yards on 1st down we put ourselves behind the 8-ball because we are not diversified and the defense can stack the LOS.

We're behind "the chains" but -- and it took me several years to get off the ceiling -- I don't think we were behind the 8-ball at all if we got by 2-3 yards on 1st down. I had to learn to accept part of Johnson's M.O. is to feel out a team while he catches the entire LOS and LB to see who is going where, a skill that to me is unbelievable. Because when he has figured that out, then lights out.

 

[GTJake]

We're behind "the chains" but -- and it took me several years to get off the ceiling -- I don't think we were behind the 8-ball at all if we got by 2-3 yards on 1st down. I had to learn to accept part of Johnson's M.O. is to feel out a team while he catches the entire LOS and LB to see who is going where, a skill that to me is unbelievable. Because when he has figured that out, then lights out.

I don't totally disagree with this, but at those times against certain opponents in certain games when "it's not working" we have very limited options ...

 

[Skeptic]

Totally agree. I read Ken Niumtalolo's thoughts on the TO and he clearly states that as the goal. One must limit the opportunities for the opponent to score. It seems to me that passing more creates more up tempo, more plays, more scoring. I just don't see Tech winning that way.

Bobby Dodd (who, I am not making the claim, is current with today's football) said that at Tech, the goal was to keep the game close until the 4th quarter. Then ... he'll figure out a way to win. But avoid blowouts.

Stayed tuned Saturday, Army-Navy. A two possession game. One each. And I really look forward to it. (Really, there has never been a fan watching his team moving down the field play after play after play and then start twitching: how long before we fumble? It has its own dynamics.) Maybe it is a function of TOP coupled with a dependable defense.

 

[Skeptic]

In general I think you need to be diversified and make the defense defend the whole field, not just the LOS ...

Maybe a difference in terminology. I consider the LOS to extend across the field, and when GT gets the edges... now that is the LOS but the width of the field. Those deep throws when the safeties cheated up were to make them defend vertically, whether or not that worked.

 

[Skeptic]

I don't totally disagree with this, but at those times against certain opponents in certain games when "it's not working" we have very limited options ...

Nor would I argue with that. Those times to me were against teams with superior athletes and superior numbers. Just watching them line up told the story. Clemson, Georgia primarily, just dominating us. Good players beat good schemes. They just do. Throw it or run makes no never mind.

 

[Vespidae]

Stayed tuned Saturday, Army-Navy. A two possession game. One each. And I really look forward to it. (Really, there has never been a fan watching his team moving down the field play after play after play and then start twitching: how long before we fumble? It has its own dynamics.) Maybe it is a function of TOP coupled with a dependable defense.

Love this! I read a very very good book (out of print now) and the author described Bear Bryant's approach to football and it was this. In Bryant's view, football is a game of errors. And long drives (in Bryant's view) CANNOT be sustained. Too often, the team loses focus and the next thing you know, there's a penalty, missed assignment, fumble, etc.

The way to overcome that is you must have at least one explosive play per series to shorten the field. Whether it's a 30 yard run or a pass over their heads ... doing so eliminates the opportunity for a stall.

That's why I get back to ... what are the core principles of the offense in terms of strategy. (I had a boss once who had played baseball and quipped, "It's a game played in front of 40,000 fans, none of whom, have the slightest idea what is going on.")

 

[GTJake]

Maybe a difference in terminology. I consider the LOS to extend across the field, and when GT gets the edges... now that is the LOS but the width of the field. Those deep throws when the safeties cheated up were to make them defend vertically, whether or not that worked.

Yes defend the whole field means both horizontally and vertically.
IMO, we need to be much better at passing, which also gives us more options on 3rd down's ...
Take away those long Home Runs, when we've lulled the defense to "cheat-up" and our passing is even more dismal.

 

[Skeptic]

...The way to overcome that is you must have at least one explosive play per series to shorten the field. Whether it's a 30 yard run or a pass over their heads ... doing so eliminates the opportunity for a stall.....

And there you have it in two sentences, all the world's football wisdom. Seriously. Because if you can claim time of possession AND shorten the field on the same possession, you probably are going to own the scoreboard, too. You know, I would have liked to be there for one of those Saturday matchups of Bryant and Dodd. Brain waves must have been crackling over the hash marks. (I told a friend once that Dodd once beat Bryant 7-6 and Bryant had Namath at the time, and he threw 38 passes. He does not believe me to this day.)

 

[Vespidae]

And there you have it in two sentences, all the world's football wisdom. Seriously. Because if you can claim time of possession AND shorten the field on the same possession, you probably are going to own the scoreboard, too. You know, I would have liked to be there for one of those Saturday matchups of Bryant and Dodd. Brain waves must have been crackling over the hash marks. (I told a friend once that Dodd once beat Bryant 7-6 and Bryant had Namath at the time, and he threw 38 passes. He does not believe me to this day.)

That's a true story. Here is Kim King's recall of that game:

A story Kim King (GT QB in the mid-60s) used to tell about his recruitment:

In November of 1962, Alabama, the defending national champion, came to town with a 26-game unbeaten streak. The morning of the game, my parents, my girlfriend and I were invited to the Georgia Terrace Hotel, to Bear Bryant's suite. Alabama was ranked number one again, but Bear was worried.

He was sitting by the window. You could see Grant Field from there. He was sitting with a pack of Chesterfields and a pack of Benson & Hedges.

He was Chain-smoking, smoking one from one pack, then one from the other. He kept looking out the window at the rain, and saying, "This is Dodd's weather, this is Dodd's kind of weather."

He said, "Mrs. King, excuse my language, ma'am. But that damn Dodd's gonna beat my butt today." He said it about 10 times. My father said, "Coach Bryant, you've got a national championship team. You've got all these players back."

Bryant said, "It's raining. It's a sloppy field. This is Dodd's weather. He'll figure out how to play in this weather. He knows how to win in this kind of weather."

GT won, 7-6. Dodd thought of that as his greatest victory.

 

[Skeptic]

Yes defend the whole field means both horizontally and vertically.
IMO, we need to be much better at passing, which also gives us more options on 3rd down's ...
Take away those long Home Runs, when we've lulled the defense to "cheat-up" and our passing is even more dismal.

Take away the home runs? Why, per General Custer in Little Big Man, "There is nothing in this world so surprising as the attack without mercy!"

And you want to give it up?

 

[Skeptic]

That's a true story. Here is Kim King's recall of that game:

A story Kim King (GT QB in the mid-60s) used to tell about his recruitment:

In November of 1962, Alabama, the defending national champion, came to town with a 26-game unbeaten streak. The morning of the game, my parents, my girlfriend and I were invited to the Georgia Terrace Hotel, to Bear Bryant's suite. Alabama was ranked number one again, but Bear was worried.

He was sitting by the window. You could see Grant Field from there. He was sitting with a pack of Chesterfields and a pack of Benson & Hedges.

He was Chain-smoking, smoking one from one pack, then one from the other. He kept looking out the window at the rain, and saying, "This is Dodd's weather, this is Dodd's kind of weather."

He said, "Mrs. King, excuse my language, ma'am. But that damn Dodd's gonna beat my butt today." He said it about 10 times. My father said, "Coach Bryant, you've got a national championship team. You've got all these players back."

Bryant said, "It's raining. It's a sloppy field. This is Dodd's weather. He'll figure out how to play in this weather. He knows how to win in this kind of weather."

GT won, 7-6. Dodd thought of that as his greatest victory.

Thanks for that one.

 

[JacketFromUGA]

I don't totally disagree with this, but at those times against certain opponents in certain games when "it's not working" we have very limited options ...

Absolutely agree with this. The thing I don't agree with is what I feel you're implying that other offenses don't have games where "it's not working" and therefore have limited options.

LSU scored 0 points against Bama. 12 yards rushing and 184 yards passing with 1 INT.

To me they also had a game where nothing worked. The teams that don't have those types of games are either undefeated or can score 50 points and still lose.

 

[GTJake]

Take away the home runs? Why, per General Custer in Little Big Man, "There is nothing in this world so surprising as the attack without mercy!"

And you want to give it up?

... but General Custer ........... lost (sic)

 

[g0lftime]

Well, OK. But is it balance if I run over the A gap, then the C gap and then counter it and then ... or is it merely a function of X number of runs vs X number of passes? (One of my irritations over 10 years has been the pass on first down that fails, at which point fans rail that "He put us in a hole early" and then passing on 3rd and 12 and the same fans railing that, "Why does he wait until they expect it before he passes?" If it gets to me imagine him. To me that is just a narrowly defined view that does not address offensive needs. I get it, really. I just think it is wrong.

You take what the defense gives you. 8 or 9 in the box and we still tried to run was an exercise in futility. I am convinced that PJ was a perfectionist in execution and only the sheer desire of our players often was the difference. We were fortunate to have Butker who gave us a chance against UGA twice in Athens. The officiating has changed over the last few years and has not been favorable to our offense. It favors the passing game. It is possible to win in the TO but there are times when we need a passing game other than a 30 yard post. A better D and ST would have given us at least 1 more win this year (USF). The O can't be expected to carry the load all the time by limiting possessions. It helps when out manned but Clemson and UGA showed it has limitations against superior talent and good coaching. The first time I realized it was against Iowa in a bowl. That was a wake up to me. I was and still like PJ. I am sorry to see him go. I just wish he had made a few changes to innovate more. He was always telling the players they need to get better. I'm not sure he ever did.

 

[g0lftime]

That's a true story. Here is Kim King's recall of that game:

A story Kim King (GT QB in the mid-60s) used to tell about his recruitment:

In November of 1962, Alabama, the defending national champion, came to town with a 26-game unbeaten streak. The morning of the game, my parents, my girlfriend and I were invited to the Georgia Terrace Hotel, to Bear Bryant's suite. Alabama was ranked number one again, but Bear was worried.

He was sitting by the window. You could see Grant Field from there. He was sitting with a pack of Chesterfields and a pack of Benson & Hedges.

He was Chain-smoking, smoking one from one pack, then one from the other. He kept looking out the window at the rain, and saying, "This is Dodd's weather, this is Dodd's kind of weather."

He said, "Mrs. King, excuse my language, ma'am. But that damn Dodd's gonna beat my butt today." He said it about 10 times. My father said, "Coach Bryant, you've got a national championship team. You've got all these players back."

Bryant said, "It's raining. It's a sloppy field. This is Dodd's weather. He'll figure out how to play in this weather. He knows how to win in this kind of weather."

GT won, 7-6. Dodd thought of that as his greatest victory.

Ted Davis caught the pass from Lothridge.

 

[GTJake]

Absolutely agree with this. The thing I don't agree with is what I feel you're implying that other offenses don't have games where "it's not working" and therefore have limited options.

LSU scored 0 points against Bama. 12 yards rushing and 184 yards passing with 1 INT.

To me they also had a game where nothing worked. The teams that don't have those types of games are either undefeated or can score 50 points and still lose.

Agreed ... but to dive into this deeper we'd have to discuss game preparation and planning, team psyche, the "want it more" factor, and other variables that occur when one team comes to play and the other doesn't ...
IMO, last Saturday's first half UGAG just wanted it more ... sometimes as has been said "that's why they play the game".

 

[mqpayne]

And there you have it in two sentences, all the world's football wisdom. Seriously. Because if you can claim time of possession AND shorten the field on the same possession, you probably are going to own the scoreboard, too. You know, I would have liked to be there for one of those Saturday matchups of Bryant and Dodd. Brain waves must have been crackling over the hash marks. (I told a friend once that Dodd once beat Bryant 7-6 and Bryant had Namath at the time, and he threw 38 passes. He does not believe me to this day.)

I was there and he threw 38 passes and 4 interceptions. Best game ever.

 

[lv20gt]

I am fine with passing as part of a coherent approach to the game. I am not fine with passing just to say we are good at passing.

You have to be competent at passing. We've seen that time and time again when teams don't respect our passing game it makes us much easier to defend. For some games it doesn't matter, but those are also the games where we'd probably do well with most offenses. The fact is being able to say you have a good passing game actually impact the way the defense plays.

 

[Vespidae]

You have to be competent at passing. We've seen that time and time again when teams don't respect our passing game it makes us much easier to defend. For some games it doesn't matter, but those are also the games where we'd probably do well with most offenses. The fact is being able to say you have a good passing game actually impact the way the defense plays.

You have to be able to pass, on that I agree.