#GTCamp2016

[FatPat]

Sorry Boomer- much as I hate to disagree with you, I just have to. CL is the little engine that could!!!

 

[danny daniel]

Wait..... You asked him why his forehead looked like raw hamburger meat? Jk I would hope you didn't ask it that way, but that's probably something you shouldn't ask in the future considering it's something most people would be embarrassed about, and wouldn't want to be reminded of.

No. I said his forehead looked like hamburger meat. I actually asked him if he had been blocking without a helmet to which he smiled and said "no CPJ gave me a helmet, its fine. We've just been working hard".

 

[ramblin' wagon]

I am not sure I agree with this. Well, let's just say I don't agree. While I do feel Clinton showed us a good bit and was our most productive AB last year, I do not share your opinion that he ran through hits. In fact, my biggest criticism would be that he specifically did not get tough yards, nor outrun people to gain extra yards. Lynch played well in that he executed his assignments pretty well and got yards when he had space. Our system provides a good bit of that and he played well within our system. Go back and rewind the film and watch. Then go back and watch, say, Deon Hill from 2014, and then ask yourself, who really made the plays to move the chains when it didn't look like it was there and who didn't. Let me be clear, I am a fan of CL and I expect him to contribute this year. He needs to grow and improve, but the sledding will be a little tougher when it comes to getting on the field. If he grows and continues to start, I will be pleased as punch.

Are you serious? CL averaged 9.5 per carry and 24.8 per reception. DH had 6.8 per rush and 17.8 per reception. DH played in a much better offense than CL. Again are you serious?

 

[Dottie1145]

Are you serious? CL averaged 9.5 per carry and 24.8 per reception. DH had 6.8 per rush and 17.8 per reception. DH played in a much better offense than CL. Again are you serious?

He said he was good in open space, he probably had the majority of our big chunk runs. I do agree that he went down easily, not always, but last year we all went down easy.

 

[danny daniel]

Sorry Boomer- much as I hate to disagree with you, I just have to. CL is the little engine that could!!!

Sorry Boomer also- while I agree CL (Freshman) has not yet reached the performance of Deon Hill (Senior), he made several plays where he finished runs strong for extra yards and several where he made moves (two of which he scored) beyond what I suspect most of us expected. Throughout the course of the games in 2015 CL gave us some positive excitement on O where there was otherwise not so much. No doubt Searcy and L Griffin would have generated much excitement had they played in more games.

IMO CL has not been given his due by this forum, starting with his true freshman year when this forum put him in total obscurity. After I asked a certain moderator multiple times (three times ignored) about CL's progress I was finally told that he was on the scout team and was not even playing AB (go away, he is not even a factor). Even CPJ when asked about CL in the 2015 Camp said "oh he is just trying to get on the bus".

For a freshman not even expected to play I thought CL had a very good 2015 season and deserves praise for his accomplishments. If other players are better this season that is best for the team and I will be on board to praise them. For 2015 the praise for AB play should go to CL.

 

[ramblin' wagon]

He said he was good in open space, he probably had the majority of our big chunk runs. I do agree that he went down easily, not always, but last year we all went down easy.

The 2014 team averaged 99 yds more per game. 11-3 vs 3-9. CL had better stats. It's a really bold claim to make with no supporting evidence. It's hard to believe CL had yards gifted to him in a much worse offense.

 

[tech_wreck47]

The 2014 team averaged 99 yds more per game. 11-3 vs 3-9. CL had better stats. It's a really bold claim to make with no supporting evidence. It's hard to believe CL had yards gifted to him in a much worse offense.

When DH was scoring touch downs and only having to go 4 yards it kinda messes his numbers up, CL had most of his plays from his own 10 yard line of course I'm kidding, but there is a lot of things that go into stats and many things can make one player have better stats than the other even if they arent better. I'm not saying this is the case but just pointing out things, like how many touches did each player get? If you are getting more touches chances are you might not get as many ypc, what team are you playing, did you brake off a 90 yard run untouched and then the next two runs of the game get 1 yard a piece? If so you just averaged almost 31 yards per carry but would you rather have that or would you rather have a guy get the ball 7 or 8 times and get 5 or 6 yards every time and be getting more first downs? All these things go into stats and can make things look different than they really are. Even things like was it a blowout and the other team playing subs or did one guy get more touches early in the game when the D had fresh legs and the other get the ball later and the D worn out. Stats are one of the biggest mistakes in looking to see if a player is good or not imo, just to many variables.

 

[RonJohn]

Are you serious? CL averaged 9.5 per carry and 24.8 per reception. DH had 6.8 per rush and 17.8 per reception. DH played in a much better offense than CL. Again are you serious?

The 2014 team averaged 99 yds more per game. 11-3 vs 3-9. CL had better stats. It's a really bold claim to make with no supporting evidence. It's hard to believe CL had yards gifted to him in a much worse offense.

I don't think Boomer's post said either that DH had better stats, or that any AB is/was better than any other. He specifically argued that DH in 2014 was better at yards after contact than CL in 2015. I don't see anything in your posts that provide counter argument to that point.

As to "no supporting evidence", what would you like? Does someone need to go back thru the film and measure yards after contact numbers for each? I would suggest that you look at Boomer's posts in previous years. He reviews film after the games and provides analysis, some of it pretty detailed. Nobody is perfect, and people can have different opinions. However, if you want to provide counter-argument to someone who consistently provides detailed analysis, please argue with more than one stat and a flippant question.

 

[Techster]

This is what I wrote about CL in another thread, and why I believe too many underrate him:

Regarding Clinton Lynch "making plays. It's simple:

What's the biggest play you can make in football? Scoring a TD.
Clinton Lynch scored the most TDs of anyone on our team not named Justin Thomas.

As a receiver?
The 2nd most receiving yardage on the team, #1 by an AB. The highest yards per catch on the team 24.8 (well, excluding Taquan Marshall who only had 3 catches). 2nd leading receiver on the team, #1 by an AB.

As a running back?
3rd leading rusher on the team by total yardage, #1 by an AB. #1 overall in yards per carry overall.

Total offense?
#2 overall behind JeT.

I may be wrong here, but those numbers, consitently among the top of team in several categories, strongly indicates someone "making plays" on a consistent basis. That's just me though...

BTW...he did all that as a redshirt freshmen.

I think the disconnect is there's confusion on what an AB needs to be, or some believe an AB has to be "A" but it's position that can do "B", "C", or a combination of them all. AB, to me, is one of the most dynamic positions in college football. That's why we've had several different types of athletes be successful at AB. Orwin Smith and Robby Godhigh are the two most dynamic ABs we've had (IMO), and I think those guys still didn't fully exploit what the position could be.

A lot of it is as fans we project what we THINK certain positions need to do to be successful. The truth of the matter is, in our offense, guys can slice the pie several different ways and still be successful. Yes, we are an option based running team, but it doesn't mean our ABs need to be tradtional RBs who have to break tackles up and down the field. ABs, for all intents and purposes if you look at CPJ's video of the origins his spread option, are meant to pose a 2 way threat to the front 7. I think there's a VERY good reason why CPJ has gone away from signing the "traditional" RB at AB, and has gone more towards the athletic slash type and slot WR type athletes. It's evolution by necessity because our offense is getting defensed better every year, and there fore our athletes who play in this offense have to do more than just run the ball. It's why a stud athlete like Christian Campbell can't play QB for us, because he needs to be able to be a legit passing threat as well as a legit running threat. ABs are no longer just guys who can make the first guy miss...they have to have nuance in their game both in the running and receiving game.

 

[33jacket]

While I think we have more playing depth than you say, we may just have different scales.

Fwiw, if we have a #5-7 ACC D, we'll be allowing abt 2.0 ppd v pwr5. If our O gets back up close to 3.0 ppdvpwr5, we'll be competing for top 10 ranking.

exactly, which is why with our offense, having at top 1/3 D in the ACC is totally doable...and we would be a good team...top 20 for sure.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Don"t know who was better and don't care, it's splitting hairs at this point. I'm darn glad we had both and am darn glad we still have Clint. Now get off my lawn and Go Jackets!

 

[Boomergump]

Thanks everybody for responding to my post. I am not going to quote everybody who has chimed in, but rather, I'll just address your concerns in a general sense.

First, I stand by my assessment, but I would like to clarify. I am not trying to say he didn't play well. Although I was sure CL had more yards in 2015 than DH in 2014, it had no impact on what I was trying to say. I base my comments on just reviewing the film and watching snaps play out and slowing the action down etc. Truly, DH didn't have as many big plays in open spaces as CL, but he made a bunch of really tough runs that barely moved the chains on plays that looked like they had no chance. We had trouble moving the chains last year and some of it was due to not making the tough 4yards (or something out of nothing). The AB position was part of that problem. I have watched enough film through the years to know when a play has a chance to break by watching it develop. We just simply got caught too much last year without having the play break for yards. The AB position was a big culprit in this problem.

I don't mean to say that CL didn't make any tough plays. He made a nice contested catch in the EZ in one game (UVA ?)and did break a tackle to extend a run by about 10 yards in a game late in the season (can't remember which opponent). It's just that it wasn't a very regular occurrence. If you go back through the season in your mind, you will see several huge plays by CL. Most of them were in wide open spaces, which is great. You have to make those plays too. Some of them can be the difference between winning and losing. More often though, the difference between a W-L is the tough yards and just extending plays when it is important, like moving the chains just to kill more clock.

I had an extended conversation with a guy heavily involved in the program, who has coached football his entire life who is in the GT film room extensively, and presented these exact thoughts to him as we were discussing the season about 2/3 of the way through. He told me I was exactly right. Now, I wasn't discussing CL (solely) with him on that day, but rather the AB unit as a whole. But we all know CL was getting most of the reps. He never stopped me and said that CL was an exception either.

I really respect that you guys like CL and I like him too, ALOT. It is perfectly fine that you don't share my opinion. I just want to make sure you understand where I am coming from. Sometimes I hesitate to write opinions like this because it appears that I dislike an athlete or root against them somehow. That couldn't be further from the truth. I'll bet if you approached CL yourself and asked him about how he felt about 2015, he would probably tell you the same thing I have, that he played well, gained some experience, but needed to make more tough yards. Plus, he would probably tell you coaches are telling him the same thing too. I'll bet he has worked his butt off this off year trying to make sure he does just that. He is going to need to, because the competition will be ramping up.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Hmmmm....as I replied to this thread I began to make a point which I almost immediately began to revise my position on as I thought more about it. But I started out with the standpoint that our ABs are dual threat guys but running backs first and foremost IMO. And that I don't think that has changed much since 08. See Anthony Allen who later moved to BB. There hasn't been a repeat of this so I could be wrong.

I then started to hypothesize what we would do if we had 3 Bo Jacksons and 3 Barry Sanders on roster. Initially I thought the Bos would all start ahead of the Barrys.....but I began to think more about it and changed my mind a bit....i think I would start 1 Bo at BB, one Bo at AB, and one Barry at AB. I can see the argument in starting two Barrys at AB however. Only thing I wouldn't do is start a Barry at BB.

Someone plz ask CPJ what he would do . Sorry for the derail and random silly hypothesis.

 

[33jacket]

I don't think Boomer's post said either that DH had better stats, or that any AB is/was better than any other. He specifically argued that DH in 2014 was better at yards after contact than CL in 2015. I don't see anything in your posts that provide counter argument to that point.

As to "no supporting evidence", what would you like? Does someone need to go back thru the film and measure yards after contact numbers for each? I would suggest that you look at Boomer's posts in previous years. He reviews film after the games and provides analysis, some of it pretty detailed. Nobody is perfect, and people can have different opinions. However, if you want to provide counter-argument to someone who consistently provides detailed analysis, please argue with more than one stat and a flippant question.

to be fair in his point boomer provided no stats stating the contrary either to his point. So both are simply opinions based on impression and general memory. CL is a better AB than DH and its not a debate. His numbers were ridiculously good on a bad offense compared to DH one good year; and he was a freshman. Breaking tackles is great when you need too. CL is downfield quicker and doesn't need to as often; and is shiftier and doesn't need to as often as a result.

I do agree with Boomer in one area though. Our AB potential is good enough Lynch could see reduced time. That says alot about the skill at that position, because Lynch is a starter on many of Pauls teams.

There is no such thing as a perfect player. Guys who are quicker and shiftier often don't and WILL NEVER break tackles like pounders. But pounders aren't shifty and have lower YPC usually but get tough yards. DH was not as shifty a guy, he was bit a more drudger so his style was a tad more contact. CL is not that type of AB. So for me the stat of TAC for this debate is a bit pointless.

The only stat that matters is does he TRY to get the tough yard. And he does. He may not get it, because its not the player he is or ever will be...but he tries. By the same token DH TRIED to make the move to get into space and have a higher YPC like Lynch. But he didn't, because its not who he was either.

Its a bit of a silly debate. For every time lynch didn't succeed getting the tough yard, DH didn't succeed in making a guy miss and getting 10 more yards, which is another 1st down and equivalent to getting one tough yard on 3 and 1. The whole debate is a wash

 

[33jacket]

Hmmmm....as I replied to this thread I began to make a point which I almost immediately began to revise my position on as I thought more about it. But I started out with the standpoint that our ABs are dual threat guys but running backs first and foremost IMO. And that I don't think that has changed much since 08. See Anthony Allen who later moved to BB. There hasn't been a repeat of this so I could be wrong.

I then started to hypothesize what we would do if we had 3 Bo Jacksons and 3 Barry Sanders on roster. Initially I thought the Bos would all start ahead of the Barrys.....but I began to think more about it and changed my mind a bit....i think I would start 1 Bo at BB, one Bo at AB, and one Barry at AB. I can see the argument in starting two Barrys at AB however. Only thing I wouldn't do is start a Barry at BB.

Someone plz ask CPJ what he would do . Sorry for the derail and random silly hypothesis.

I think in a perfect world CPJ would want a Bo/Hershel explosion guy/body type at BB For sure...At AB you don't want to tip sides and want to be even. So I think two guys that are identical on either side would be his preference. One aspect of his offense that goes underlooked is a balanced formation with no player types tipping off playside....

So for me; he would have two AB's identical...with running, catching, blocking ability dynamic look.

Two Marshall Faulks and one Bo Jackson

 

[4shotB]

I really respect that you guys like CL and I like him too, ALOT. It is perfectly fine that you don't share my opinion. I just want to make sure you understand where I am coming from. Sometimes I hesitate to write opinions like this because it appears that I dislike an athlete or root against them somehow.

Boomer, one of the reasons I enjoy this site so much is because the debates on how we can get better as a team or as a position group or as individual players are more reasoned, researched and fact based than what you typically see on this type of forum. I cringe when individual players are singled out, blasted or critiqued unfairly. I do however enjoy "performance reviews" by an individual who is willing to break down film like you (and others here) do. please continue with these posts. I cannot imagine that there is a player or coach on the roster who does not think that there is some area in which he can improve. You simply do not get to that level as an athlete or coach with a "status quo" mindset.

 

[AE 87]

I think in a perfect world CPJ would want a Bo/Hershel explosion guy/body type at BB For sure...At AB you don't want to tip sides and want to be even. So I think two guys that are identical on either side would be his preference. One aspect of his offense that goes underlooked is a balanced formation with no player types tipping off playside....

So for me; he would have two AB's identical...with running, catching, blocking ability dynamic look.

Two Marshall Faulks and one Bo Jackson

Interesting post, but I'm not sure. I think a case could be made for preferring one A Z back as a better blocker and the other better with the ball in space.

Obviously, perfect at everything is an ideal for both slots, but lacking that I think some specialization is preferable to ballance.

 

[GTBandit22]

Not really an issue. CL will play, but he will definitely have to fight for his spot . 2014/2015 both showed, for differing reasons, why a deep AB rotation is preferred. In 14, we played 6 guys at AB and needed them when we had injuries at the OB. 2015 showed what happens when that depth is untested and young.
I'm interested to see who the top 4 guys will end up being.
Ike,, Lynch, Qua, JJ, Griffin, Jarrett, Cottrell
The first 4 have at least 2 years in the system, but the last 3 look like they have special athletic talents. LG could be that Perkins type A back, and he just switched in October. A spring and fall camp with the offense cant hurt. Jarrett really impressed me in the spring with his elusiveness. Cottrell has speed to burn.
Barring injury, I think this is the most athletic group of A backs we've ever had. 2014 was the best group so far, but I think this group has them beat talent wise.

 

[GTBandit22]

And the roster is showing Gant as an A back? Dude was trucking people in the dome, I thought he was a SS for sure.

 

[AE 87]

For those wondering about helmet covers, here's a pic: