Attrition and Scholarship Limits

[beerbuzz]

Actually, if I may wax philosophical for a moment, I think this is a major misconception.

I think all Americans come down on the opportunity side of this. The difference is more about what constitutes a fair opportunity. Some - like you, I suspect - see any action taken by the state to insure a level playing field as guaranteeing an outcome. But it is the lack of state action that guarantees that: if some competitors start at the 100 meter line and others at the 30 meter line, theres no doubt who'll win the race. If we could guarantee that merit alone gave the folks at the 30 meter line their advantage, I don't think most people would be that bent out of shape; we all know that some of us were more favored by "nature" then others. But, of course, we can't do that. Inequalities in wealth and status are responsible for the lion's share of the 30 meter group and most of them got that advantage through no effort of their own. The state steps in to see that the race is more even - not, mind, completely even - not to guarantee the outcome. That way opportunity doesn't clump as completely with those who would win with virtually no effort or merit of their own otherwise. Not doing so is both unjust - what's a state for if not to insure a more fair society? - and economically inefficient - we want people to grab the brass ring because they are smart and worked for it, not because their family is rich.

We can argue about what's necessary to insure more fair competition, but I don't think the main point is arguable.

Mods feel free to move this; I know it doesn't really
Nm

 

[IM79]

Now there's a good example right there why coaches shouldn't be allowed to arbitrarily decide who's loafing/faking and pull scholarships. Some injuries are hard to diagnose.

Exactly because some injuries are hard to diagnose, the coaches don't pull scholarships. They keep them on scholarship but as a medical scholarship that does not count against the 85 limit. Who is to say how bad a players back, knee, hip or shoulder is hurting and if that's what's holding them back. That's what the medical ships are for. Nothing wrong or dishonorable about using medical scholarships at all.

 

[iceeater1969]

"...operator errors in the scale control"? I'm going to have to remember that one.

This new computer has a touch screen and I accidently shrunk it so I could only see the letters in caps. I bought the first IBM 64 w my life savings and now I can't even operate a friggin tablet.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Exactly because some injuries are hard to diagnose, the coaches don't pull scholarships. They keep them on scholarship but as a medical scholarship that does not count against the 85 limit. Who is to say how bad a players back, knee, hip or shoulder is hurting and if that's what's holding them back. That's what the medical ships are for. Nothing wrong or dishonorable about using medical scholarships at all.

What about when they’re used on perfectly healthy guys in order to free up more ships?

 

[bobongo]

What about when they’re used on perfectly healthy guys in order to free up more ships?

I'm not IM79, but I'll put my two cents in, anyway.

It's not unethical toward the player in question, because he still has his scholarship and probably wasn't going to get much playing time anyway.

It's unfair toward the teams that cannot afford such luxuries because the team in question is exploiting a loophole in the roster/scholarship limit to gain an unfair advantage over them. A team that abuses this loophole already enjoys a financial advantage in all probability, and this just makes it worse. They're abusing the loophole to gain an unfair advantage by replacing castoffs with fresh players. But some would say they have that right, and that it's just an expression of the financial advantage they've earned in some way or deserve. I dunno. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there.

My $0.02.

 

[forensicbuzz]

Wow, now we’re advocating tolerating misbehavior because we committed to a scholarship with a kid when he was a Senior in HS?

I don’t care what you’re calling it, I as a leader do not tolerate BS from my team. Don’t show up and try hard, compete and contribute to the Team’s success then you’re out the door. The top performers appreciate it, the middle performers fall in line and the low performers either leave or get told to leave.

No wonder why we’re soft. Kid decides he doesn’t have the heart for it any more as a Soph but knows we don’t have the backbone to do the right thing so he gets a free ride. Amazing.

I have so many rude things to say to this that I'm just not going to say any of them.

 

[IM79]

What about when they’re used on perfectly healthy guys in order to free up more ships?

IMHO, there is no such thing as a perfectly healthy football player after he has been playing football since he was 9 or 10 years old, through high school then D1 college. It was said earlier Paul Johnson said some players need to learn to play through the pain. They all have pain of some sort at the D1 level. In fact, football, like boxing, should be banned. They are both blood sports that leave players maimed, addled and crippled.

But God help me, I love it. I can't quit watching Tech play. As long they play it, I'll watch it.

So, in short, I have no problem with putting guys that may look perfectly healthy on medical scholarships. They're the lucky ones, they get to escape the coliseum with less damage on their bodies.

 

[IM79]

I'm not IM79, but I'll put my two cents in, anyway.

It's not unethical toward the player in question, because he still has his scholarship and probably wasn't going to get much playing time anyway.

It's unfair toward the teams that cannot afford such luxuries because the team in question is exploiting a loophole in the roster/scholarship limit to gain an unfair advantage over them. A team that abuses this loophole already enjoys a financial advantage in all probability, and this just makes it worse. They're abusing the loophole to gain an unfair advantage by replacing castoffs with fresh players. But some would say they have that right, and that it's just an expression of the financial advantage they've earned in some way or deserve. I dunno. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there.

My $0.02.

Frankly, I'm not worried about who can't afford it. If we are going to be in a P5 Conference we are going to have to play by their rules. Every Power 5 Conf school can afford it. Not every school can pay 5 or 10 million a year for a coach either - should we have a cap on coaching salaries to protect the little guys as well?

Most of the G5 schools can afford I would think. And those that can't should drop down to 1AA anyway.

Bobby Dodd wanted no limit on scholarships to help get the players through school. The smaller SEC schools got a scholarship cap to hurt Bama and Tech, so Tech left the SEC. We had one of the largest stadia in the country, we sold it out, made other teams play in Atlanta or not at all. They hated us because we were rich in days before TV. We used our financial advantages for all those years as much as we could. I think there should be no limit on scholarships frankly.

 

[Animal02]

Frankly, I'm not worried about who can't afford it. If we are going to be in a P5 Conference we are going to have to play by their rules. Every Power 5 Conf school can afford it. Not every school can pay 5 or 10 million a year for a coach either - should we have a cap on coaching salaries to protect the little guys as well?

Most of the G5 schools can afford I would think. And those that can't should drop down to 1AA anyway.

Bobby Dodd wanted no limit on scholarships to help get the players through school. The smaller SEC schools got a scholarship cap to hurt Bama and Tech, so Tech left the SEC. We had one of the largest stadia in the country, we sold it out, made other teams play in Atlanta or not at all. They hated us because we were rich in days before TV. We used our financial advantages for all those years as much as we could. I think there should be no limit on scholarships frankly.

Just the opposite. There should be a cap on all football / individual sports spending. Football and every other sport does not exist in a vacuum. It depends on other teams for competition. Without parity, you will end up with a couple of teams winning all the time and time again interest will drop. There is a reason pro sports have gone to salary caps, revenue sharing etc. If the NYC and LA teams could do what they wanted, the champions would pretty much be pre determined before the season started. College football is getting close to that now.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Frankly, I'm not worried about who can't afford it. If we are going to be in a P5 Conference we are going to have to play by their rules. Every Power 5 Conf school can afford it. Not every school can pay 5 or 10 million a year for a coach either - should we have a cap on coaching salaries to protect the little guys as well?

Most of the G5 schools can afford I would think. And those that can't should drop down to 1AA anyway.

Bobby Dodd wanted no limit on scholarships to help get the players through school. The smaller SEC schools got a scholarship cap to hurt Bama and Tech, so Tech left the SEC. We had one of the largest stadia in the country, we sold it out, made other teams play in Atlanta or not at all. They hated us because we were rich in days before TV. We used our financial advantages for all those years as much as we could. I think there should be no limit on scholarships frankly.

I guess that’s one way to look at it.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

You did. You said the coach could revoke playing time but if he rescinded the scholarship you’d stop supporting the coach. A player half-asses it you tell him go loaf on the bench. I’d tell him go loaf in the dorm. On your own dime not mine.

I’ve been a pretty big fan since the day I stepped on campus. If I had any idea we had rampant loafing well my opinions would have been much different than they were. I had no idea some were carrying a bunch of deadbeats in addition to carrying a demanding academic workload. No wonder why there were locker room problems at GT & not at Navy, Southern.

You misconstrued my point completely.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Nm

 

[gtwcf]

One of my king for a day ideas is get rid of the 85 player cap and move to a fixed number of scholarships per year (including transfers and walk ons). Gets rid of this greyshirt/blueshirt nonsense and also gets rid of the processing.

I'm thinking the number is 20-23.

 

[LibertyTurns]

You misconstrued my point completely.

Sorry I took it to mean you were in favor of some slacker occupying a scholarship slot while others were busting their ***. I’m actually quite surprised at the widespread level of support for those that have mailed it in remaining on GT’s dime. Maybe I need to get onboard with the Millenials and just accept the fact that accountability only resides at the top?

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Sorry I took it to mean you were in favor of some slacker occupying a scholarship slot while others were busting their ***. I’m actually quite surprised at the widespread level of support for those that have mailed it in remaining on GT’s dime. Maybe I need to get onboard with the Millenials and just accept the fact that accountability only resides at the top?

Yeah that wasn’t my take. Coaches should be able to gas kids for behavior or loafing etc. shouldn’t be able to kick them off the team unless found in violation of school rules. But run them all day long if coaches want.

The line coaches won’t want to cross is handling discipline in a manner that would leave them and the school open to civil litigation penalties etc.

O’Leary lost a lot of support for humiliating a player in practice and arguably placing him in a situation that could have led to unreasonable injury. I didn’t have a big problem with it but O’Leary was treading on a fairly narrow line their and their is less tolerance for that kind of coaching today.

This all strays away a bit from “processing” as I define it.

 

[biggtfan]

We start acting like Bama, and I will no longer be a fan.

Is Georgia Tech Football a business or a charity? A small amount of Alabama-like maneuvering may be necessary in order to win, attract talent, and maintain funding among the wealthy donors. Would ONE maneuver cause your departure? If so, you are putting unfair constraints on the program if you still want a respectable and successful outcome.

 

[biggtfan]

Completely wrong...GTAA moves to championships first, students and academics second, support will drop like a rock. BTW, it is far easier to retain fans/ customers than to generate new ones

Please provide anything resembling a fact to support your assumption. Without facts, your belief is limited only by your imagination and that is no basis for predicting an outcome.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Is Georgia Tech Football a business or a charity? A small amount of Alabama-like maneuvering may be necessary in order to win, attract talent, and maintain funding among the wealthy donors. Would ONE maneuver cause your departure? If so, you are putting unfair constraints on the program if you still want a respectable and successful outcome.

If it’s a business I guess players need that paycheck after all......

Beware slippery slopes.

 

[TheSilasSonRising]

And we will, in the final analysis, probably end up with less than 85 on ship anyway.

Some of this is reminiscent of debates regarding ACC expansion years ago.

Many argued against expansion with the simple analysis being “if the conference is now getting X number of $ and we add 2 more teams then GT will get less money.” No additional thinking about the actual potential consequences of future revenue.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Sorry I took it to mean you were in favor of some slacker occupying a scholarship slot while others were busting their ***. I’m actually quite surprised at the widespread level of support for those that have mailed it in remaining on GT’s dime. Maybe I need to get onboard with the Millenials and just accept the fact that accountability only resides at the top?

Liberty, coaches can cut kids after every single year if they want to. The scholarship is one year renewable. The reason they don’t do it is because it makes them look bad. Your jousting at windmills.