Arrests coming due to college bball kickbacks

[Techster]

Read this first:

https://sports.yahoo.com/former-aau...ketball-scandal-will-flip-feds-034806204.html

Then this:

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=100919&page=1

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

I have stated many times that I don't see any violations of federal law in the Gatto indictment. It appears to be saying that fraud was committed because the prosecutor says that fraud was committed. I don't see any clear indication that Gatto did the following:

"Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both."

Gatto didn't obtain money or property by giving money to Bowen. The general legal definition of "scheme or artifice to defraud" from uslegal.com is "is a plan or trick to deprive another of the intangible right of honest services". He didn't deprive Louisville of a right to honest services.

In 2009 the Wall Street Journal had a story based on a book "Three Felonies a Day". The book on Amazon now shows a release date of 2011, so it must have been updated. The premise of the book and thus the WSJ story was that federal laws are so vague that prosecutors can argue that ANY person in the US has committed a felony. The WSJ article, or an article by Bob Barr had an example of a fish importer. Federal prosecutors believed that he had information about some acquaintances of his. He maintained that he didn't know anything. The prosecutors found that some of the fish he imported were smaller than allowed in the country they were caught in. In that country catching fish too small was a small fine. The federal prosecutors used a US law that didn't allow importing things that weren't legal in the country of origin to be sentenced to up to 30 years. He was convicted, but I don't remember what sentence he received. He appealed because the too small fish law had been declared unconstitutional in the origin country. However, the US appeals court ruled that even though it had been declared unconstitutional in the origin country before he was convicted, it hadn't been officially removed from the text of the statutes until after his conviction. So he remained in prison.

For the US Constitution, I am a pretty staunch originalist. For laws, I am pretty strict in the belief that they should be written with words that actually mean what the words say. They should be understandable. I know prosecutors will talk about how evil and sleazy defendants are. I don't have a problem with that. However if I am on a jury, I want the prosecutor to at least point to a statute that was violated and be able to explain to me how the defendant violated that statute. If he has to waive his arms and talk in circles and hope that I will see how things somehow might match the statute, it will be extremely hard to convince me. I'm not defending Gatto because I want shoe companies and sleazy AAU coaches to continue running basketball. I am actually happy that all of this is coming out into the open. I am concerned that federal prosecutors are warping the power of the federal government to go after whatever the unpopular group of the hour is. The law should be easy to understand. If a prosecutor alleges that someone broke the law, you should be able to look at the alleged actions of the defendant and understand that if the defendant did X that statute Y was indeed violated. I believe that in this case and in too many other cases, federal prosecutors say that the defendant did these vile things, and here is a statute that we can use to charge him. In my opinion, that is no different than a monocracy or a totaliarian government.

I don't like vagueness in laws either. I think, especially in white collar crimes, incidents can get very convoluted and intricate. I think this has led to the wide scope written in relevant code sections. That grants prosecutors tremendous leeway. It's then incumbent upon the prosecution to prove, to a jury, that a criminal offense occurred.

 

[YlJacket]

There have been "whispers" around about the Duke program for a while now. Duke use to recruit a specific type of SA, whether it was because of choice or they were forced to, who knows. Then, seemingly overnight, they started loading up on 5 stars one and dones. Quite the change in philosophy and type of kids Duke use to recruit. I posted a link earlier in the thread about a poll coaches voted on about who they thought were the "honest" coaches in the sport was, then commented that the names not on there are more surprising then the names that are on there. Well, here we are.

Kentucky...I think we all started looking that way when the FBI investigation was announced.

Early 2000's Duke was trying to change/improve the level of athlete they were bringing into Duke. They were pretty open and public about it in interviews with papers and radio. Didn't know how to do it and were not having much success until K was named head of USA basketball and was able to turn his success and contacts with NBA stars into a machine at Duke. He went from making a Don Quixote run at John Wall to being able to wait and pick pretty much whomever he wants. While partially due to the "troubles" at UNC, K has pretty much run old Roy out of the top 10 recruits market and only Calipari seems to be able to compete consistently.

It will be really interesting to see if there are any tapes of KY or Duke assistant coaches marshalling the shoe companies to steer recruits their way.

 

[GTRX7]

Kentucky...I think we all started looking that way when the FBI investigation was announced.

It is certainly possible that Kentucky could get dragged into all of this before it is over. That said, to be fair, the whole country (including the NCAA) has been staring directly at UK trying to uncover violations from the moment Calipari was hired. I tend to think that if there was really a lot dirty going on there, we would probably know about it by now. UK's compliance director is supposedly known as one of the best in the country. Who knows though?

Calipari has shown to be so successful putting kids into the NBA compared to every other coach (including compared to Roy, K, and Self) that it actually seems WAY more sketchy when kids choose some of these random schools over UK (see kids like Ben Simmons to LSU, Emmanuel Mudiay to SMU, Malik Newman to MSU, Jaylen Brown to USC). Not to say any or all of those kids took money, but those all made me raise my eyebrows more than Cal getting another 5* commit who is looking for the fastest rout to the NBA.

As someone just noted, Duke does seem like an odd case. Not only did they completely reverse their recruiting strategy the last few years to target a different type of one-and-done player, but Duke has actually been winning most of the recruiting battles with UK lately. That said, if there is any coach that could make such a legitimate change, it would probably be K.

Here is a quote from John Wall on the scandal that I thought was interesting:

“If you are the No. 1 guy or the top guy, you’re going to have guys come at you. But you have to be smart about it. If you are only going to school for one year, there’s no point in doing all the extra stuff. If you don’t have any money and have been poor your whole life, another eight months won’t hurt.”

“I was trusting no one. Listen, I grew up without a dad since the age of nine. It was my mom working three or four jobs to support our family. If she could provide from me then, then she could provide for me when I was 17 or 18 years old for a few months. You know what I mean? You couldn’t do nothing for me then. I’d been poor my whole life. Eight months? What is that money going to do for me? I was fine with it.”

CSN Mid Atlantic

 

[Peacone36]

I swear, if they continue to talk about vacating wins like it’s some kind of ****ing punishment....I’m gonna.....I’m gonna ***** and piss and moan about it more.....

 

[Techster]

It is certainly possible that Kentucky could get dragged into all of this before it is over. That said, to be fair, the whole country (including the NCAA) has been staring directly at UK trying to uncover violations from the moment Calipari was hired. I tend to think that if there was really a lot dirty going on there, we would probably know about it by now. UK's compliance director is supposedly known as one of the best in the country. Who knows though?

Calipari has shown to be so successful putting kids into the NBA compared to every other coach (including compared to Roy, K, and Self) that it actually seems WAY more sketchy when kids choose some of these random schools over UK (see kids like Ben Simmons to LSU, Emmanuel Mudiay to SMU, Malik Newman to MSU, Jaylen Brown to USC). Not to say any or all of those kids took money, but those all made me raise my eyebrows more than Cal getting another 5* commit who is looking for the fastest rout to the NBA.

As someone just noted, Duke does seem like an odd case. Not only did they completely reverse their recruiting strategy the last few years to target a different type of one-and-done player, but Duke has actually been winning most of the recruiting battles with UK lately. That said, if there is any coach that could make such a legitimate change, it would probably be K.

Here is a quote from John Wall on the scandal that I thought was interesting:

“If you are the No. 1 guy or the top guy, you’re going to have guys come at you. But you have to be smart about it. If you are only going to school for one year, there’s no point in doing all the extra stuff. If you don’t have any money and have been poor your whole life, another eight months won’t hurt.”

“I was trusting no one. Listen, I grew up without a dad since the age of nine. It was my mom working three or four jobs to support our family. If she could provide from me then, then she could provide for me when I was 17 or 18 years old for a few months. You know what I mean? You couldn’t do nothing for me then. I’d been poor my whole life. Eight months? What is that money going to do for me? I was fine with it.”

CSN Mid Atlantic

It's going to be interesting to see what comes out of the FBI's digging into Nike's operation. Why? Duke and Kentucky are Nike schools.

The thing about it is, any digging into Duke's or Kentucky's past from the NCAA can only go so far. Who's bank accounts do they request...or can they even request? Who's cell phone records are they allowed to request? Who's email records can they look into? NCAA can get stonewalled quick. As we have seen, once a kid leaves school, he doesn't need to cooperate with the NCAA anymore.

The FBI? What you have, the FBI has the power to look into it if they have probably cause. The FBI isn't the NCAA, and they don't have anyone's interest to look after like the NCAA does. The bigger the fish the better for them. The NCAA? The bigger the fish, the more it leads to other problems, not to mention the big fishes bring in revenue that ends up in the NCAA's coffers. See the problem there?

If you think just because Coach K got to coach Team USA that automatically made him more attractive to recruits, I have beach front property to sell you in Valdosta, GA. If anything, and this is pure speculation, it made him more high profile for the Nike brand. Read into that what you will.

As for your John Wall example, you may want to rethink it. There was a swirl of controversy surrounding his eligibility before he enrolled at Kentucky. Somehow they "settled" on Wall paying back like $800...

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/news/story?id=4586311

He couldn't wait a year for $800? *wink, wink*

This is a good article on Calipari's ways:

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2010/03/the_sleaziest_coach_in_a_sleazy_game.html

Like Pitino, certain things seem to follow Calipari everywhere he went...

 

[Techster]

LOLOLOL....love the Onion:

 

[Oldgoldandwhite]

If the Nike and Adidas guys cooperate, it would not surprise me if the cream gets hammered. Kentucky, UNC, Duke, Syracuse, Florida, UCLA, Arizona, Alabama, Ohio St, Clemson, Michigan, ND, and a bunch more.

 

[jeffgt14]

GT = 2019 National Champions? Can we fend off Wichita State?

 

[Techster]

If the Nike and Adidas guys cooperate, it would not surprise me if the cream gets hammered. Kentucky, UNC, Duke, Syracuse, Florida, UCLA, Arizona, Alabama, Ohio St, Clemson, Michigan, ND, and a bunch more.

More than likely, the Power 5 breaks off, the NCAA vanishes...and everyone that got caught starts over unscathed under a new form of governance. How do you punish that many high profile schools without hurting the product?

 

[Peacone36]

 

[GTRX7]

It's going to be interesting to see what comes out of the FBI's digging into Nike's operation. Why? Duke and Kentucky are Nike schools.

The thing about it is, any digging into Duke's or Kentucky's past from the NCAA can only go so far. Who's bank accounts do they request...or can they even request? Who's cell phone records are they allowed to request? Who's email records can they look into? NCAA can get stonewalled quick. As we have seen, once a kid leaves school, he doesn't need to cooperate with the NCAA anymore.

The FBI? What you have, the FBI has the power to look into it if they have probably cause. The FBI isn't the NCAA, and they don't have anyone's interest to look after like the NCAA does. The bigger the fish the better for them. The NCAA? The bigger the fish, the more it leads to other problems, not to mention the big fishes bring in revenue that ends up in the NCAA's coffers. See the problem there?

If you think just because Coach K got to coach Team USA that automatically made him more attractive to recruits, I have beach front property to sell you in Valdosta, GA. If anything, and this is pure speculation, it made him more high profile for the Nike brand. Read into that what you will.

As for your John Wall example, you may want to rethink it. There was a swirl of controversy surrounding his eligibility before he enrolled at Kentucky. Somehow they "settled" on Wall paying back like $800...

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/news/story?id=4586311

He couldn't wait a year for $800? *wink, wink*

This is a good article on Calipari's ways:

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2010/03/the_sleaziest_coach_in_a_sleazy_game.html

Like Pitino, certain things seem to follow Calipari everywhere he went...

I understand a lot of folks just hate Calipari, but I see nothing interesting or new in either of those articles. The Wall article says: "Brian Clifton, Wall's AAU coach, was a certified agent with FIBA, basketball's international governing body, for nearly a year. Under NCAA rule that equates to Wall accepting illegal benefits from an agent." If that is the basis for the "controversy" surrounding Wall, sounds like there is less there than BeyBey getting clothes from his cousin.

The Calipari article is pretty much a joke. His take on the players attitudes on that John Wall team is laughably wrong, as evidenced by the exceedingly good relationship those players still have with Cal to this day. And the two previous situations at UMass and Memphis are totally non-analogous. Camby started taking money from an agent while he was already enrolled in UMass as a senior. That was nothing but a terrible thing for Calipari. That provides him absolutely zero benefit (the kid is already a player, so it is not like it helped in recruiting), and obviously made the kid ineligible which could only hurt Calipari. Calipari is actually the one who reported that violation to the NCAA. And the Derrick Rose thing was a fraudulent test taken by the kid before he was committed to Memphis. I don't think the article is suggesting that Calipari helped the kid cheat or anything (nor have I ever heard even his most ardent critics suggest he actually helped the kid cheat). At most, you could argue that it is possible that Cal knew it was likely that he cheated. But it isn't like Calipari was the only coach still recruiting him till the end. Lots of coaches were. That is all quite a bit different than the current allegations.

 

[Techster]

I understand a lot of folks just hate Calipari, but I see nothing interesting or new in either of those articles. The Wall article says: "Brian Clifton, Wall's AAU coach, was a certified agent with FIBA, basketball's international governing body, for nearly a year. Under NCAA rule that equates to Wall accepting illegal benefits from an agent." If that is the basis for the "controversy" surrounding Wall, sounds like there is less there than BeyBey getting clothes from his cousin.

The Calipari article is pretty much a joke. His take on the players attitudes on that John Wall team is laughably wrong, as evidenced by the exceedingly good relationship those players still have with Cal to this day. And the two previous situations at UMass and Memphis are totally non-analogous. Camby started taking money from an agent while he was already enrolled in UMass as a senior. That was nothing but a terrible thing for Calipari. That provides him absolutely zero benefit (the kid is already a player, so it is not like it helped in recruiting), and obviously made the kid ineligible which could only hurt Calipari. Calipari is actually the one who reported that violation to the NCAA. And the Derrick Rose thing was a fraudulent test taken by the kid before he was committed to Memphis. I don't think the article is suggesting that Calipari helped the kid cheat or anything (nor have I ever heard even his most ardent critics suggest he actually helped the kid cheat). At most, you could argue that it is possible that Cal knew it was likely that he cheated. But it isn't like Calipari was the only coach still recruiting him till the end. Lots of coaches were. That is all quite a bit different than the current allegations.

Funny how a litmus test on these things turn out depending on whose eyes are looking it. First you use John Wall as an example, but the example gets turned on its head because he's talking out of both sides of his mouth. The amount he has to pay back is what they could prove...what about what they they had no records of? It's certainly questionable that Wall is even talking like he should be the pillar of "just a wait a year...you'll get it back when you go pro" but he was benefitting as a HS athlete. An athelete is in trouble for receiving benefits because he's getting benefits from coaches and handlers on the AAU/HS level? Geez, sounds like what kicked all the recent FBI stuff that led to Pitino walking the plank...as other coaches have, and will....

Are you really attempting to say Calipari is clean because his players like him? What's the point in that?

BTW, I wasn't referring to Rose cheating, I was referring to this:

In 2005, long before the questions arose over who exactly took Derrick Rose's SAT, there was a break-in at the apartment where several members of the Memphis team lived. According to police reports, the items stolen included $3,600 in fake fur coats, $6,000 worth of shoes, and however many throwback jerseys $2,150 will buy you. It is possible that the players in question amassed this bounty on only what they received for books, tuition, room and board, and fees, or out of the largesse of their respective grandmothers. It is also possible that Maggie Gyllenhaal waits for me around the next corner. Then came that great season that doesn't exist any more, and the scandal, and Calipari was off to Kentucky while Memphis took the NCAA sanctions right in the face.

Come one man...you don't see a pattern here? You think coaches are that oblivious?

Let's see where this investigation leads. My hunch is, because the guy who use to head Nike's EYBL program is now under the hot lights, a LOT of bigger names are going to be exposed.

 

[Techster]

Ill just leave this here:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-b...eived-to-be-the-biggest-cheater-in-the-sport/

 

[jeffgt14]

Ill just leave this here:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-b...eived-to-be-the-biggest-cheater-in-the-sport/

I'd almost put Pitino, Howland and Drew 1A, 1B, and 1C. Not so sure how Crean got up there. Seemed fairly clean to me.

 

[GTRX7]

Funny how a litmus test on these things turn out depending on whose eyes are looking it. First you use John Wall as an example, but the example gets turned on its head because he's talking out of both sides of his mouth. The amount he has to pay back is what they could prove...what about what they they had no records of? It's certainly questionable that Wall is even talking like he should be the pillar of "just a wait a year...you'll get it back when you go pro" but he was benefitting as a HS athlete. An athelete is in trouble for receiving benefits because he's getting benefits from coaches and handlers on the AAU/HS level? Geez, sounds like what kicked all the recent FBI stuff that led to Pitino walking the plank...as other coaches have, and will....

Are you really attempting to say Calipari is clean because his players like him? What's the point in that?

BTW, I wasn't referring to Rose cheating, I was referring to this:

In 2005, long before the questions arose over who exactly took Derrick Rose's SAT, there was a break-in at the apartment where several members of the Memphis team lived. According to police reports, the items stolen included $3,600 in fake fur coats, $6,000 worth of shoes, and however many throwback jerseys $2,150 will buy you. It is possible that the players in question amassed this bounty on only what they received for books, tuition, room and board, and fees, or out of the largesse of their respective grandmothers. It is also possible that Maggie Gyllenhaal waits for me around the next corner. Then came that great season that doesn't exist any more, and the scandal, and Calipari was off to Kentucky while Memphis took the NCAA sanctions right in the face.

Come one man...you don't see a pattern here? You think coaches are that oblivious?

Let's see where this investigation leads. My hunch is, because the guy who use to head Nike's EYBL program is now under the hot lights, a LOT of bigger names are going to be exposed.

If you can't see the difference between a kid getting $800 travel expenses paid by his AAU coach (which by the way is not impermissible in it of itself, but only because the coach was also serving as a FIBA agent) and a kid accepting a $100k bribe to commit to a school, I'm not sure what to tell you.

And, yes, Calipari unquestionably had some kids with suspect backgrounds well he was coaching at Memphis. At a place like Memphis, that was largely what he could get. More than that, he doesn't run from that. In fact, he has taken pride in giving a lot of kids from broken homes second chances in their lives. Which I think is commendable in some ways. Note that he is not had any issues with any players while he has been at Kentucky aside from a couple extremely minor incidents.

And, let's not try to judge coaches solely by the worst players that played for them. Otherwise, Georgia Tech coaches have had murderes and drug traffickers playing for them.

I am not saying that Calipari perfect or has never played in the gray areas of recruiting. I am just saying he gets judged by a different standard and there is no evidence indicating that he himself has ever done what a lot of other coaches have already been proven to have done.

 

[mstranahan]

Will be interesting to continue to watch this unfold. Despite my personal feelings about Cal, I will be surprised if he did anything in such a way that he left himself open to getting hammered for a third time. Anything they find at Kentucky will just be more of the same stuff they've been caught doing multiple times.

I think UNC and Ol Roy will be clean as a whistle. With all the crap they've gotten themselves into and the resulting investigations, I assume they've been very very clean the last 5 - 8 years.

I doubt Duke program or coaching staff will be found to have done anything. They got burned by Myron Piggy and Maggette and I think they set up decent processes after that.

I'm expecting there will be more bad behavior uncovered with agents & shoe companies, but not as much with the big programs. Wouldn't surprise me if some of the usual suspects pop up and get busted (Free Shoes U, Maryland, Florida under Donovan, UConn, Michigan, Ohio State, Minnesota, etc)

Entirely possible that Nike has been paying kids and steering them to Duke, UK, UNC and other blue chip programs. Honestly, I'd be surprised if all the shoe companies aren't paying AAU coaches, players, parents etc.

 

[dtm1997]

 

[Connell62]

UNC and Duke may yet become entangled in this but part of me thinks it may be other college coaches engaging in wishful thinking.
Who knows - we'll see. I will be keeping an eye open for it though.

Just curious, why do you think that?

Although I would be thrilled to death, Duke would surprise me a bit, but UNC has shown that they're top tier cheaters with their made up classes.

 

[dtm1997]

Just curious, why do you think that?

Although I would be thrilled to death, Duke would surprise me a bit, but UNC has shown that they're top tier cheaters with their made up classes.

I actually think the opposite. Kids or their dads grow up dreaming of playing hoops for Carolina. Carolina may cheat to keep them eligible, but I don't think they need to pay. Look at their recruiting during the period in question.

dook on the other hand? I think Capel's been dropping bags nationwide the past few years. I'd be worried there.