Ahmaud Arbery murder case

[LibertyTurns]

@684Bee I hear you and your problem is now. That issue needs a solution but how did we get here?

We got here by failing to provide opportunities for our people. We looked the other way when our schools were failing. We ignored jobs families depended upon and let them go overseas instead of having policies to keep them here. We’ve provided safety nets under the guise of trying to be compassionate but robbed a large segment of our populations dignity they get from achieving and finding success in life. We make excuses for criminal behavior instead of fixing the reasons it happens.

We can’t fix this overnight but a couple of generations from now our nation could be a completely different place if we focus on stability of the family (ensuring jobs for working men and women, not romanticizing aberrant behavior, reducing crime in neighborhoods, positively reinforcing good life choices, etc), establishing a good educational system where children learn marketable skills instead of being socially engineered, removing barriers to success instead of just providing handouts, etc.

It’s a two sided coin and the disadvantaged need to step up, the leadership advocating for the disadvantaged need to step up, those in power blocking progress need to step up, those hiding inside their gated communities need to step up and people need to stop avoiding addressing the real causes because they’re hurtful. Wrong behavior is just wrong. Bad policy is just bad.

 

[kg01]

Agree with you.

Here is the reality that many don't want to accept or talk about, though:

If I look at my neighborhood, which is all I can really speak on from personal experience, if you take the arrest reports and security camera footage of all of the home and auto break-ins that occur, 90+% of these crimes are committed by black males, with the majority being young black males.

Now, here's the rest of it that really doesn't want to be talked about: When the police actually do finally make an arrest (doesn't happen nearly often enough), these young black males laugh in their face and tell them that they will be back out doing the same thing the next day (I've been told this directly from officers). Why is that? It's because of the lax laws we have, at least in GA, regarding minors. Until they accumulate so many points, they have to be released to a parent or guardian. So, imagine just for a minute that your neighborhood is continually preyed upon by these criminals. In my neighborhood it happens on a weekly basis. Yes, you read that right. There is no fear of repercussions by the perpetrators. Hardly any arrests ever happen, and, when they finally do, the criminals get a slap on the wrist and released right back out. If that was happening to you repeatedly, what do you do? You just continue to surrender and say "here you go, take my hard-earned possessions that I've worked for"? It's easy to say, "let the police and justice system handle", but what if you live somewhere where the system (the DA's office and judges) don't prosecute like they should and there really is no justice?

That is 100% truth and reality.

In your neighborhood, does that now give you the right and responsibility to pursue and kill the next black male you see running down the street? With your explanation being, "uh well I thought he did something"?

If someone, black/white/brown/male/female/whatever, threatens you or your family that's one thing. In that scenario, in my opinion, that person has decided to forfeit their life so whatever happens is on them.

It's something else if a person decides to act as judge/jury/executioner in a situation where 'what happened' is very much in doubt. That's what we're talking about here.

 

[armeck]

In your neighborhood, does that now give you the right and responsibility to pursue and kill the next black male you see running down the street? With your explanation being, "uh well I thought he did something"?

If someone, black/white/brown/male/female/whatever, threatens you or your family that's one thing. In that scenario, in my opinion, that person has decided to forfeit their life so whatever happens is on them.

It's something else if a person decides to act as judge/jury/executioner in a situation where 'what happened' is very much in doubt. That's what we're talking about here.

Agree, an imminent threat to yourself, family, friends, even a stranger - yes lethal force can be justified. Arming yourself and pursuing someone that you "think" maybe did something? Worse, the older man is a retired LEO - he knows the rules, he just decided it didn't apply.

 

[684Bee]

This is the neighborhood:
https://www.zillow.com/satilla-shores-brunswick-ga/

The victim was 25 years old.

While what you wrote may have a gleam of truth where you live, it is irrelevant to the topic and only serves as a way - even if involuntary - of justifying what happened. I am white, and something I often notice from other whites are that they get really defensive about stories like this as if the actions of these men somehow reflect poorly on themselves. Denying the obvious racism is worse. There is no guilt by association here, these guys are not me and quite likely not you either. Just look how many words you said that agreed this is awful, and then how many you spent explaining, "yeah but..."

It doesn't have a "gleam of truth". It's 100% what happens repeatedly, week after week.

I'm not justifying what the guys did in this particular situation. I already started my first post with that I agreed with what the poster said that I was replying to. They were 100% in the wrong to handle this the way they did, particularly because they didn't catch someone in the act and their lives were certainly not in danger at that moment.

You say whites get defensive. I see the opposite. I've seen 100% condemnation of this, which is as it should be.

 

[684Bee]

In your neighborhood, does that now give you the right and responsibility to pursue and kill the next black male you see running down the street? With your explanation being, "uh well I thought he did something"?

If someone, black/white/brown/male/female/whatever, threatens you or your family that's one thing. In that scenario, in my opinion, that person has decided to forfeit their life so whatever happens is on them.

It's something else if a person decides to act as judge/jury/executioner in a situation where 'what happened' is very much in doubt. That's what we're talking about here.

I agree with you. In this situation, they didn't catch someone in the act and their lives certainly were not in danger. They were 100% in the wrong.

 

[forensicbuzz]

There's "freedom of expression" and there's doing something to incite terror. One is protected, the other is not.

I whole-heartedly agree. Wearing a KKK mask or robes in public is a form of domestic terrorism. It is done to incite fear in others.

I cannot begin to imagine what it means to grow up a black man. I generally stay mute on these types of conversations because I have nothing tangible to add other than my outrage (which I do not hold back). The older I get, the less I understand others. It shouldn't be that way. With age should come understanding and wisdom.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

It's good to finally see something being talked about on here that everybody seems to be in agreement about.

 

[Techster]

It's 2020, and it's f'ing horrifying that we are having the same conversations we had in the 1980's and before. It makes me sad and angry that we can't treat each other better. Seriously, we live in the best country in the world, with the most opportunity in the world...why are people so angry and resort to violence all the time? (Don't answer that...it's rhetorical)

At times we act like we live in a war torn country. It's f'ing disgusting sometimes.

End rant.

 

[Boaty1]

This is the neighborhood:
https://www.zillow.com/satilla-shores-brunswick-ga/

The victim was 25 years old.

While what you wrote may have a gleam of truth where you live, it is irrelevant to the topic and only serves as a way - even if involuntary - of justifying what happened. I am white, and something I often notice from other whites are that they get really defensive about stories like this as if the actions of these men somehow reflect poorly on themselves. Denying the obvious racism is worse. There is no guilt by association here, these guys are not me and quite likely not you either. Just look how many words you said that agreed this is awful, and then how many you spent explaining, "yeah but..."

The issue to me is not really what is going with this story in particular. It's the overarching theme of violence against black people by whites that through anecdotal stories such as these, our country has come to the conclusion that blacks are physically threatened by overt racism from whites. This narrative runs completely counter to what the full data set shows. Year after year after stats show that whites are more than twice as likely to be killed by blacks than blacks are by whites. So the question arises, why are we being fed this narrative of blacks being the victims of violence at rates that go beyond what one expect? It's clear to me it's being driver for political reasons and also for rating by the media. Here is the 2017 FBI statistics regrading this.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....ges/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls

Anybody remember the white college baseball player that was killed while jogging by 2 black teenagers for no reason other than they said they were bored?

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/...ege-baseball-player-boredom-article-1.1431445

Notice how race isn't mentioned in this article. I did a quick search and not one headline read 2 black teens kill white college baseball player. Do you think race would have been mentioned in the headline if the roles were reversed? I know I certainly do and until we can get some honest reporting about this issue I'm not sure how race relations can improve.

 

[armeck]

The issue to me is not really what is going with this story in particular. It's the overarching theme of violence against black people by whites that through anecdotal stories such as these, our country has come to the conclusion that blacks are physically threatened by overt racism from whites. This narrative runs completely counter to what the full data set shows. Year after year after stats show that whites are more than twice as likely to be killed by blacks than blacks are by whites. So the question arises, why are we being fed this narrative of blacks being the victims of violence at rates that go beyond what one expect? It's clear to me it's being driver for political reasons and also for rating by the media. Here is the 2017 FBI statistics regrading this.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u....ges/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls

Anybody remember the white college baseball player that was killed while jogging by 2 black teenagers for no reason other than they said they were bored?

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/...ege-baseball-player-boredom-article-1.1431445

Notice how race isn't mentioned in this article. I did a quick search and not one headline read 2 black teens kill white college baseball player. Do you think race would have been mentioned in the headline if the roles were reversed? I know I certainly do and until we can get some honest reporting about this issue I'm not sure how race relations can improve.

That's a good post. I am not surprised about the stats either. One thing also to point out to everyone of every race, you are much more likely to be a victim of someone from your own race than any other. I guess it has to do with how we are still a self segregated society and surrounded mostly with people "like us" than not.

Interesting about that OK baseball player, and you are right - the media is extremely cautious to label obvious race related crimes when it is a minority offender. If two white kids killed a black kid out of boredom, we'd hear all about it.

 

[LibertyTurns]

This incident is horrible on a family and community level. Maybe, just maybe we can grab the silver lining out of this dark cloud?

Fundamentally we need to acknowledge what our country has done here. We enslaved people. The world was a different place but it was still very wrong. We made slavery illegal but just changed the game where people were no longer slaves, but the rules were damn near as bad. We evolved and then had “separate but equal”. Well not quite, it was separate but very unequal. We evolved and made that illegal. However, we just found other ways to change the game. Some well intentioned people decided we’d monitor outcomes and if there was a disparity we’d provide an outcome instead. Other ways were found to circumvent that. The direction we’re heading is positive but make no mistake barriers exist. You have to ask yourself why do they exist and why can we do to eliminate barriers?

Freedom and God given rights bestowed upon us by our Constitution my fellow Americans.

When people choose one person over another because of a government mandate, we’ll never have freedom. When people make free market based choices, the person selected is the best for the job we will have freedom.

We must establish the conditions for freedom to flourish. Equal application of the laws, educate our people, provide safe communities, opportunities to succeed, etc. Reduce the size of government so winners and losers are not selected by politically connected powerful elites and let freedom ring at the local level.

We know what to do with the vigilantes and the moron wearing the hood. The first group need jail/death penalty and the second one needs public scorn to deter that type of behavior as as repugnant as it is it’s Constitutionally protected exercise of his rights.

Americans will make good choices if we can get government and sleazy politicians out of the way. It will be a long and hard road full of challenges to shake this pox off our nation. We won’t do it being led by the imbeciles in power or their media friends on both sides of the aisle. Time to take our country back and stop letting these SOBs sow discontent among us for their own personal gain. It has gone on too long.

 

[MWBATL]

I find myself having two reactions...:

1. as @kg01 and @A Love Supreme have said, it is sad...no, heartbreaking....that American citizens, my brothers....have to fear acting in certain ways simply because of the color of their skin. But I do not doubt them, every single black male friend I have has told me the same story. EVERY SINGLE ONE. And, they have had the same conversation with their sons. That makes me want to cry, that we do that to each other.
2. I do feel that the media does not help matters and makes them much worse. Is there racism? Yes. Has racism affected every black person? Yes. Is it exaggerated by the media? YES. Does that exaggeration provide a false story to young black males about our society and their chances of "making it" in America today? Yes. We need better...not only from the white community to continue to stamp out racism at every turn and every place we find it, but also in the black community and amongst its leaders and the media. Instead of a constant torrent of stories about how racist American society is, we need to focus on the stories about how much progress we are making and how much more possible it is for every race to progress and "make it" in America today.
3. We also need to have a really honest assessment of why there are certain underclasses in our society that haven't changed much in the last century. In many respects, blacks have made tremendous progress. In many other aspects, they have regressed. The number of young black males growing up without Dads at home is shocking. The paucity of jobs for quality people who are not college educated is a national disgrace. We have taken the very jobs that poor folk (of all colors) could slide right into...manufacturing and trade jobs, and done our best to export them to China for the last 40 years. Instead of making furniture in North Carolina, textiles in Alabama, and autos in Michigan, we have sent all that overseas and left the communities who used to work in this industries high and dry. That is a national travesty, imho. Thus we have many poor folks (of all races) who look out there and see no chance unless they get a college degree...and then they see how much that costs and how many people have buckled under the burden of student loans...and they get discouraged. And without a strong family support system, which we as a society eroded with drugs epidemics where we all too often turned a blind eye because it was "those people" who were being decimated, we leave a generation of young people to fend for themselves. We have seen the enemy and it is us.....

/End rant

 

[Deleted member 2897]

We must establish the conditions for freedom to flourish. Equal application of the laws, educate our people, provide safe communities, opportunities to succeed, etc.

I pulled this one specific comment out to emphasize it. Losing someone in your community because of something like this is just terrible. But then when you find out that the guy is a retired cop or something and so all those guys just circled the wagons makes it even worse. I hope the police force and DA and whoever else get the full weight of the law crawling up their butt to find out what went on. If I were a police chief or DA and this thing came in and I knew the guy involved or what he used to do and I didn't think I could be independent, then call in the state investigators or the FBI. Trying to sweep it under the rug??? Good lord people.

 

[Boaty1]

I pulled this one specific comment out to emphasize it. Losing someone in your community because of something like this is just terrible. But then when you find out that the guy is a retired cop or something and so all those guys just circled the wagons makes it even worse. I hope the police force and DA and whoever else get the full weight of the law crawling up their butt to find out what went on. If I were a police chief or DA and this thing came in and I knew the guy involved or what he used to do and I didn't think I could be independent, then call in the state investigators or the FBI. Trying to sweep it under the rug??? Good lord people.

I sincerely have a hard time believing the actions of law enforcement would have changed if it were a white kid shot while it was suspected he was breaking into other people's property and the police chief knew the individual that shot him. I say this because you highlighted equal application of laws as if you know the outcome would have been different.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

I sincerely have a hard time believing the actions of law enforcement would have changed if it were a white kid shot while it was suspected he was breaking into other people's property and the police chief knew the individual that shot him. I say this because you highlighted equal application of laws as if you know the outcome would have been different.

IIWII

 

[Boaty1]

IIWII

Gotcha. So always assume racism at every turn whether evidence presents itself or not. Maybe I'll get trained in due time.

 

[Deleted member 2897]

Gotcha. So always assume racism at every turn whether evidence presents itself or not. Maybe I'll get trained in due time.

You should join the BHB. They're immune on this board to warnings and act just like you, picking fights and putting words into other people's mouths. I'll put you in the same ignore box to save myself the worry.

 

[Boaty1]

You should join the BHB. They're immune on this board to warnings and act just like you, picking fights and putting words into other people's mouths. I'll put you in the same ignore box to save myself the worry.

I'm ignored by Bwelbo now but can anyone tell me what BHB is?

 

[LibertyTurns]

I'm ignored by Bwelbo now but can anyone tell me what BHB is?

I was wondering the same thing but I figured it meant Bald Headed Bastard because us old guys seem to have the affliction.

 

[GT_EE78]

I was wondering the same thing but I figured it meant Bald Headed Bastard because us old guys seem to have the affliction.

beta-Hydroxybutyric acid is waht comes up on google. I like yours better