ACC Discussion

RamblinCharger

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Appropriate penalty? Then what would an appropriate penalty be? 3 games? The same penalty that we suspended Bolden for getting a DUI. Yeah. Makes sense. Tripping players and driving impaired. Deserve the same punishment. Get out of here.

Also risked serious injury to his opponent? The hell are you talking about? There are hard fouls that pose a way bigger risk of injury to an opponent that happen all the time in game. He tripped people, It's not like he undercut someone going for a layup or something. Face it, if Allen didn't play for Duke nobody would be making anything of a one game suspension for what he did. But because he does, suddenly tripping someone is a crime against humanity and it's perfectly fine for people to do stuff just as bad, if not worse, than he did.

Grayson Allen is a punk. Hopefully you're joking in your post. He's a college ball player. It's not that tripping people is super harmful (although it could be), it's the fact that he's playing basketball at one of the highest levels and he acts like a 5 year old child.
 

lv20gt

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Grayson Allen is a punk. Hopefully you're joking in your post. He's a college ball player. It's not that tripping people is super harmful (although it could be), it's the fact that he's playing basketball at one of the highest levels and he acts like a 5 year old child.

Funny how I don't recall the same moral outrage when we took a recruit who had an extensive history of cussing out officials. But then again, he wasn't playing for Duke, so it's not a surprise.
 

GTpdm

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Appropriate penalty? Then what would an appropriate penalty be? 3 games? The same penalty that we suspended Bolden for getting a DUI. Yeah. Makes sense. Tripping players and driving impaired. Deserve the same punishment. Get out of here.

You seem to be missing my point, but okay, fine--let's bring Bolden's DUI into it. It actually helps make my point. He committed an off-court criminal offense, and whatever his team sanctions, he faced the civil penalties that go along with a DUI. Did other players at any point start retaliating on-court, for what he did? Did the general tenor of play become nastier when he was in the game, because opposing players considered him reckless, or because the appropriate authorities were doing nothing to really punish him? Did players decide to enact their own justice for his DUI, on the court, by playing extra rough against him?

That's what is happening in Allen's case, suggesting that his actual opponents do not think he was punished enough. They would not be behaving the way they are if they did not think his indefinite-suspension-of-definitely-only-one-game was a sham. It matters not whether you or I think the punishment was sufficient. The point is that the players don't...and now they are compounding the problem by taking unsportsmanlike actions of their own. The fact that retaliation is occurring is the only proof I need to say that Allen's penalty was insufficient; if the one-game suspension were enough, then we would not still be seeing sportsmanship issues on the court that are tied back to Allen's behavior.

The problem is not that the suspension wasn't long enough; the problem is that it was neither authoritative enough (imposed by the league, to broadcast the idea that blatant unsportsmanlike play will not be tolerated), nor sincere enough (Coach K: "Whoops! We lost one game...time to lift the suspension of our top scorer..."). So in that context, yes—it was not an appropriate penalty.

(And again: I am not condoning any of the retaliation. If I were the coach of a player who targeted Allen, I'd bench my guy for the remainder of the game and then give him an indefinite two-game suspension.)

Also risked serious injury to his opponent? The hell are you talking about? There are hard fouls that pose a way bigger risk of injury to an opponent that happen all the time in game. He tripped people, It's not like he undercut someone going for a layup or something.

Apparently, you have never gone down hard on the base of your skull after being tripped. I have...or at least, that's what they told me had happened, later that day. I guess we will just have to disagree about whether or not tripping generates an acceptably low risk of injury. From what's happening on the court, I suspect that many players are not okay with the level of risk that Allen was willing to take with their knees, ankles and skulls.

Face it, if Allen didn't play for Duke nobody would be making anything of a one game suspension for what he did. But because he does, suddenly tripping someone is a crime against humanity and it's perfectly fine for people to do stuff just as bad, if not worse, than he did.

You're right—if Allen didn't play for Duke, we wouldn't be having this discussion. If it were any other team and any other coach, the league would have sanctioned the player after the second flagrant trip, a year ago—ironically, probably with just the one-game suspension we are currently arguing about...and it would have been enough, at that point. Most of us would have accepted it as a proper sanction, players would have trusted that the league was looking out for them to ensure fair play, there probably would never have been a third incident, and we wouldn't be seeing additional on-court nastiness. Everyone would have long-since moved on.

But instead the league deferred to the venerated Coach K who, as we've seen, is more concerned about the team's W-L record than about appropriately disciplining a top scorer who repeatedly demonstrated poor sportsmanship on the court—and look where that's gotten us.

...and please, show me anywhere, in this post or one of the previous, where I claimed that what was happening to Allen was perfectly fine. My whole point has been that the retaliation is a problem, and that it was created by the perceived laxity of Allen's punishment.
 

orientalnc

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You seem to be missing my point, but okay, fine--let's bring Bolden's DUI into it. It actually helps make my point. He committed an off-court criminal offense, and whatever his team sanctions, he faced the civil penalties that go along with a DUI. Did other players at any point start retaliating on-court, for what he did? Did the general tenor of play become nastier when he was in the game, because opposing players considered him reckless, or because the appropriate authorities were doing nothing to really punish him? Did players decide to enact their own justice for his DUI, on the court, by playing extra rough against him?

That's what is happening in Allen's case, suggesting that his actual opponents do not think he was punished enough. They would not be behaving the way they are if they did not think his indefinite-suspension-of-definitely-only-one-game was a sham. It matters not whether you or I think the punishment was sufficient. The point is that the players don't...and now they are compounding the problem by taking unsportsmanlike actions of their own. The fact that retaliation is occurring is the only proof I need to say that Allen's penalty was insufficient; if the one-game suspension were enough, then we would not still be seeing sportsmanship issues on the court that are tied back to Allen's behavior.

The problem is not that the suspension wasn't long enough; the problem is that it was neither authoritative enough (imposed by the league, to broadcast the idea that blatant unsportsmanlike play will not be tolerated), nor sincere enough (Coach K: "Whoops! We lost one game...time to lift the suspension of our top scorer..."). So in that context, yes—it was not an appropriate penalty.

(And again: I am not condoning any of the retaliation. If I were the coach of a player who targeted Allen, I'd bench my guy for the remainder of the game and then give him an indefinite two-game suspension.)



Apparently, you have never gone down hard on the base of your skull after being tripped. I have...or at least, that's what they told me had happened, later that day. I guess we will just have to disagree about whether or not tripping generates an acceptably low risk of injury. From what's happening on the court, I suspect that many players are not okay with the level of risk that Allen was willing to take with their knees, ankles and skulls.



You're right—if Allen didn't play for Duke, we wouldn't be having this discussion. If it were any other team and any other coach, the league would have sanctioned the player after the second flagrant trip, a year ago—ironically, probably with just the one-game suspension we are currently arguing about...and it would have been enough, at that point. Most of us would have accepted it as a proper sanction, players would have trusted that the league was looking out for them to ensure fair play, there probably would never have been a third incident, and we wouldn't be seeing additional on-court nastiness. Everyone would have long-since moved on.

But instead the league deferred to the venerated Coach K who, as we've seen, is more concerned about the team's W-L record than about appropriately disciplining a top scorer who repeatedly demonstrated poor sportsmanship on the court—and look where that's gotten us.

...and please, show me anywhere, in this post or one of the previous, where I claimed that what was happening to Allen was perfectly fine. My whole point has been that the retaliation is a problem, and that it was created by the perceived laxity of Allen's punishment.

If you look back to the video and watch it closely, you see Allen and Crawford both aggressively going after the rebound right at the Duke bench. Allen clearly hits Crawford on the arm, but there is nothing remotely bad about it. It wasn't even a particularly physical play. Both Allen and Crawford seem ready to walk away. But Wake players rush into the mix along with Duke players from the end of their bench. It seems that Woods reaches in through a group of Wake teammates and pushes Allen. By this time the refs are there and they, along with cooler heads among the players, are clearing the scene. But tensions were building in the game well before this point and the announcers were openly predicting a potential flare-up.

Maybe you are right about the lack of punishment being a factor, but I doubt it played much of a role beyond the instinct to protect your teammate and the overall tension of the game. We have all seen much worse than what happened on that play. The fact that it was Allen is what makes it interesting to people.
 

GTpdm

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If you look back to the video and watch it closely, you see Allen and Crawford both aggressively going after the rebound right at the Duke bench. Allen clearly hits Crawford on the arm, but there is nothing remotely bad about it. It wasn't even a particularly physical play. Both Allen and Crawford seem ready to walk away. But Wake players rush into the mix along with Duke players from the end of their bench. It seems that Woods reaches in through a group of Wake teammates and pushes Allen. By this time the refs are there and they, along with cooler heads among the players, are clearing the scene. But tensions were building in the game well before this point and the announcers were openly predicting a potential flare-up.

Maybe you are right about the lack of punishment being a factor, but I doubt it played much of a role beyond the instinct to protect your teammate and the overall tension of the game. We have all seen much worse than what happened on that play. The fact that it was Allen is what makes it interesting to people.

Thanks, I hadn't seen the actual video of what transpired in that game (so maybe I should've refrained from being quite so adamant in my remarks, without more complete knowledge). It concerns me, though, that the perceived lenience of his penalty will continue to make Allen a lightning rod for these sorts of flare-ups. Tensions like that would be less likely, I think, if the suspension hadn't come across as the proverbial slap across the wrist. (Now, a slap across the wrist by an angry nun with a hard metal ruler...that would have been different! ;)) It's good that they managed to defuse this situation before it could escalate.
 

jeffgt14

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You seem to be missing my point, but okay, fine--let's bring Bolden's DUI into it. It actually helps make my point. He committed an off-court criminal offense, and whatever his team sanctions, he faced the civil penalties that go along with a DUI. Did other players at any point start retaliating on-court, for what he did? Did the general tenor of play become nastier when he was in the game, because opposing players considered him reckless, or because the appropriate authorities were doing nothing to really punish him? Did players decide to enact their own justice for his DUI, on the court, by playing extra rough against him?

That's what is happening in Allen's case, suggesting that his actual opponents do not think he was punished enough. They would not be behaving the way they are if they did not think his indefinite-suspension-of-definitely-only-one-game was a sham. It matters not whether you or I think the punishment was sufficient. The point is that the players don't...and now they are compounding the problem by taking unsportsmanlike actions of their own. The fact that retaliation is occurring is the only proof I need to say that Allen's penalty was insufficient; if the one-game suspension were enough, then we would not still be seeing sportsmanship issues on the court that are tied back to Allen's behavior.

The problem is not that the suspension wasn't long enough; the problem is that it was neither authoritative enough (imposed by the league, to broadcast the idea that blatant unsportsmanlike play will not be tolerated), nor sincere enough (Coach K: "Whoops! We lost one game...time to lift the suspension of our top scorer..."). So in that context, yes—it was not an appropriate penalty.

(And again: I am not condoning any of the retaliation. If I were the coach of a player who targeted Allen, I'd bench my guy for the remainder of the game and then give him an indefinite two-game suspension.)



Apparently, you have never gone down hard on the base of your skull after being tripped. I have...or at least, that's what they told me had happened, later that day. I guess we will just have to disagree about whether or not tripping generates an acceptably low risk of injury. From what's happening on the court, I suspect that many players are not okay with the level of risk that Allen was willing to take with their knees, ankles and skulls.



You're right—if Allen didn't play for Duke, we wouldn't be having this discussion. If it were any other team and any other coach, the league would have sanctioned the player after the second flagrant trip, a year ago—ironically, probably with just the one-game suspension we are currently arguing about...and it would have been enough, at that point. Most of us would have accepted it as a proper sanction, players would have trusted that the league was looking out for them to ensure fair play, there probably would never have been a third incident, and we wouldn't be seeing additional on-court nastiness. Everyone would have long-since moved on.

But instead the league deferred to the venerated Coach K who, as we've seen, is more concerned about the team's W-L record than about appropriately disciplining a top scorer who repeatedly demonstrated poor sportsmanship on the court—and look where that's gotten us.

...and please, show me anywhere, in this post or one of the previous, where I claimed that what was happening to Allen was perfectly fine. My whole point has been that the retaliation is a problem, and that it was created by the perceived laxity of Allen's punishment.
You can't compare criminal activities with on the court actions. I understand punishing players for things like DUI's but for the most part it gets handled by the legal system. On the court actions are the domain of the ACC and should be handled by the ACC. You might as well not suspend players for PED's because it's not worse than a DUI.
 

GTpdm

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I had a post all typed up but when I saw

[...]

and just realized that you can't argue with bias this complete.

Yeah, I guess it was pretty stupid of me to base my comments on your assertion that players were doing "stuff just as bad, if not worse, than he did". Next time I'll make sure to work from a reliable source.
 

GTpdm

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You can't compare criminal activities with on the court actions. I understand punishing players for things like DUI's but for the most part it gets handled by the legal system. On the court actions are the domain of the ACC and should be handled by the ACC. You might as well not suspend players for PED's because it's not worse than a DUI.
Agreed, 100%. I was trying to demonstrate the inherent fallacy in measuring Allen's team sanction for tripping against Bolden's team sanction for DUI, by looking at the absurdity of where it takes you. How much roughing did Bolden draw from players because they thought he was getting off too easy?
 

JacketFromUGA

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Is the ACC this year what the SEC was in football the past few years? Not as good as advertised but everyone believes it is so therefore perception creates reality?
 

Peacone36

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Is the ACC this year what the SEC was in football the past few years? Not as good as advertised but everyone believes it is so therefore perception creates reality?

Shaping up that way. Clemson Wake and Pitt are really letting the conference down.

Wakes RPI of 35 is ridiculous
 

RamblinCharger

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I think all of college basketball is a little down and the ACC is still the best. Virginia, should have beaten Villanova today at Nova. We are the deepest conference by far, but none of the teams are top 5 material I don't think, maybe Louisville or UNC, but our 1-12 is better than any other conference.
 

lauraee

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Wake has obviously figured a way to game the system with scheduling for that that rpi. No way it should be that high. Guess they've done a good job of scheduling #70-100 teams to play & beat . They have not beaten anyone of note.
 

CuseJacket

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Is the ACC this year what the SEC was in football the past few years? Not as good as advertised but everyone believes it is so therefore perception creates reality?
It's a good question. We may not know until post season.
Agreed, we may not be able to confirm that we are the 6th best team in the country until the postseason :)
 
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