54, 60, 48, 44, 51

True2GT

Georgia Tech Fan
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54
Also,. Can anyone name the All ACC players over the last 5 years. NFL draft picks? That tells me what the level of recruiting has been.
Shaq Mason. Darren Waller. And we ran the option, didn't need typical guys for the offense to be elite. The guys may have been 4 star option o linemen, but 2 star in a pro set just based on what the offense demands. So recruiting wasn't as bad as you and others make it sound
 

vadimivich

Georgia Tech Fan
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Last time I checked, Tech had several historically great seasons with this level of recruiting.

Which historically great seasons has GT had with this level of recruiting? 2014? As covered before that was also an extreme fluke to get Justin Thomas in the program (only place he could play QB) and DeAndre Smelter gave us an NFL WR simply because he hurt his shoulder ending his baseball career.

'08-'09 were built on the historically great '07 recruiting class, probably the single best class in modern GT history. Other than the very unusual blip in '14, PJ basically went nowhere with his recruits.

You have to recruit at a high level to win at a high level. Our last coach ignored that, and it's left us with the situation we're in now.
 

vadimivich

Georgia Tech Fan
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Shaq Mason. Darren Waller. And we ran the option, didn't need typical guys for the offense to be elite. The guys may have been 4 star option o linemen, but 2 star in a pro set just based on what the offense demands. So recruiting wasn't as bad as you and others make it sound

No, the recruiting was awful. The results on the field showed it. We got our doors blown off by nearly every elite level team we faced after the '07 talent bubble left the program (with again, the exception of '14).
 

SoMsJacket

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
158
Shaq Mason. Darren Waller. And we ran the option, didn't need typical guys for the offense to be elite. The guys may have been 4 star option o linemen, but 2 star in a pro set just based on what the offense demands. So recruiting wasn't as bad as you and others make it sound

You just made my point, 2 players in 5 years. TWO. Both late round picks.
 

True2GT

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
54
Which historically great seasons has GT had with this level of recruiting? 2014? As covered before that was also an extreme fluke to get Justin Thomas in the program (only place he could play QB) and DeAndre Smelter gave us an NFL WR simply because he hurt his shoulder ending his baseball career.

'08-'09 were built on the historically great '07 recruiting class, probably the single best class in modern GT history. Other than the very unusual blip in '14, PJ basically went nowhere with his recruits.

You have to recruit at a high level to win at a high level. Our last coach ignored that, and it's left us with the situation we're in now.
Got it. You will dismiss any info contrary to your view.

And ignored.
 

vadimivich

Georgia Tech Fan
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Shaq Mason. Darren Waller. And we ran the option, didn't need typical guys for the offense to be elite. The guys may have been 4 star option o linemen, but 2 star in a pro set just based on what the offense demands. So recruiting wasn't as bad as you and others make it sound

Shaq Mason and Darren Waller were more than 5 seasons ago now. They were both drafted after the 2014 season, meaning they last played for us 6 seasons ago.
 

True2GT

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
54
You just made my point, 2 players in 5 years. TWO. Both late round picks.
Those are the two I mentioned. I'm not going to go through and make a list of every GT player in the NFL under CPJ. And those two are elite NFL players right now.

I'm sorry if I got under your skin by giving you some information that you don't want to hear. I'm excited about the recruiting like you are and hopefully there will be success in the near future. I'm just not going to pin all of this seasons failures on previous regime.
 

SoMsJacket

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
158
Why are the walk ons and freshmen playing?

Also losing Parker Braun is a recruiting miss in my eyes for CGC.

Losing Brandon Adams is a tragedy, but again shows the cupboard was definitely not bare on either side.

You made my point
Walkons and FR are playing because of lack of recruiting by CPJ.

Parker announced he was leaving before GC was even hired.
Again, losing one player left a Large hole in the DL. Again, poor recruiting by CPJ. We had 11 seniors in the entire ATL?
 

True2GT

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
54
You made my point
Walkons and FR are playing because of lack of recruiting by CPJ.

Parker announced he was leaving before GC was even hired.
Again, losing one player left a Large hole in the DL. Again, poor recruiting by CPJ. We had 11 seniors in the entire ATL?

Maybe he's not such a great judge of talent then? Maybe those seniors were more equipped for the past system (Cotrell). And if so, they may be good to great players in the last scheme.

Also I saw the defense looked better in spite of your so called bad recruiting. And yes losing your potentially best dl and ol players is a huge deal.

Parker leaving is on CGC. He stated he wanted to better prepare for the NFL (tic probably in reference to Shaq Mason one of the best OG in the NFL who consequently came from our old system).
 

Augusta_Jacket

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I agree. The problem is that I don't see that talent gap lessening significantly even with this recruiting class. The talent dropoff every few ranking spots outside of the top 10-15 or so starts to become increasingly exponential. uga has 16 players committed and has a rivals score of 2329, which is 648 greater than our 1681 with 22 players committed. With 4 more commits, uga will be in the top 3-4 and probably be at least a 1000 points better. For reference, 648 points separates 23rd (GT) from 55th (Indiana). The 1000 point gap is the talent differential between us currently and Illinois at 74th. I've been saying for a while that top 25-30 won't be good enough with this scheme. We are going to have to start cracking the top 20 routinely to have a legitimate chance. Hopefully CGC can turn the ship quickly.

You're not wrong. Smart is recruiting on another level from even Richt. They are the only team that has been recruiting on Bama's level, though Clemson is finally joining that party. I think step 1 is establish clear talent advantages over the likes of Duke, Pitt, UVA, etc and increase our size so that we are at least not pushed around like little kids by Clemson and uga. Then, develop the heck out of who we get, start winning, investing and hopefully turn those top 25 classes into top 15's. But this is a long term deal and there is no shortcut.

I moved the convo to this thread as it seems more appropriate here. I agree with everything you are saying including that this is a long term fix. Even if we get our talent to the point we have clear advantages over Duke and Pitt (UVA has historically recruited well but suffered with poor coaching) I don't know how well that will equate to win totals our fan base will be satisfied with. Chalking up uga, Clemson, and ND as likely losses in the next few years, with better talent we should win games against Duke, Pitt, and a weak Atlantic rotating crossover. Couple those with the 2-3 OoC games (3 in non ND years) and that gets us to 5-6 wins and 2-3 losses. Eventually Miami will figure things out and their recruiting even during this bad stretch is vastly better than ours. UNC is probably going to get a lot better with Brown back at the helm. Time will tell if they can sustain it, but for the next 2-3 years they will be a very tough game for us, and they are currently recruiting better than us as well. UVA will continue to improve under Mendenhall, and I wouldn't ever chalk any game against them in the near future as an automatic win. VT is the real enigma. Expecting schools like VT with the resources they are willing to pour into football to stay static is foolish. When it's all said and done, if our talent/recruiting doesn't start cracking the top 20 every year, it's very possible that we become a very talented 7-8 win team yearly, which isn't much different from where we have been historically. Now, if CGC can get us to 10-11 wins every 4-5 years or so like CPJ, then I can handle winning 7-8 games most years and will even countenance the occasional off year of 3-5 wins. Will the rest of the fan base do that though? I doubt it.

In reality, our recruiting has to improve even more than we have already to be competitive at the level we desire.
 

Augusta_Jacket

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You made my point
Walkons and FR are playing because of lack of recruiting by CPJ.

Parker announced he was leaving before GC was even hired.
Again, losing one player left a Large hole in the DL. Again, poor recruiting by CPJ. We had 11 seniors in the entire ATL?

Walk-ons and Fr are playing because of massive attrition due to injury and the amount of players "nudged" out by the coaching change. The DL issues are exacerbated by the death of our best DL and the fact that the recruits the last two cycles were for the 3-4 and not the 4-3 we are currently running.
 

smokey_wasp

Helluva Engineer
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I moved the convo to this thread as it seems more appropriate here. I agree with everything you are saying including that this is a long term fix. Even if we get our talent to the point we have clear advantages over Duke and Pitt (UVA has historically recruited well but suffered with poor coaching) I don't know how well that will equate to win totals our fan base will be satisfied with. Chalking up uga, Clemson, and ND as likely losses in the next few years, with better talent we should win games against Duke, Pitt, and a weak Atlantic rotating crossover. Couple those with the 2-3 OoC games (3 in non ND years) and that gets us to 5-6 wins and 2-3 losses. Eventually Miami will figure things out and their recruiting even during this bad stretch is vastly better than ours. UNC is probably going to get a lot better with Brown back at the helm. Time will tell if they can sustain it, but for the next 2-3 years they will be a very tough game for us, and they are currently recruiting better than us as well. UVA will continue to improve under Mendenhall, and I wouldn't ever chalk any game against them in the near future as an automatic win. VT is the real enigma. Expecting schools like VT with the resources they are willing to pour into football to stay static is foolish. When it's all said and done, if our talent/recruiting doesn't start cracking the top 20 every year, it's very possible that we become a very talented 7-8 win team yearly, which isn't much different from where we have been historically. Now, if CGC can get us to 10-11 wins every 4-5 years or so like CPJ, then I can handle winning 7-8 games most years and will even countenance the occasional off year of 3-5 wins. Will the rest of the fan base do that though? I doubt it.

In reality, our recruiting has to improve even more than we have already to be competitive at the level we desire.

Fair points. I think the Coastal has been wacky for so long (7 champs in 7 years) that I just don't see anyone getting it together enough to take control of it. I happen to have confidence in our coaching a lot more than most on here so it leads me to be optimistic that we can get to a baseline of 8 wins, with double digit win seasons when a group of guys comes of age at just the right time like 2014. I think where I differ with you is that I think the 11 win seasons and wins over uga were done, permanently, under our previous way of doing things. But that's just MHO.
 

vadimivich

Georgia Tech Fan
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Now, if CGC can get us to 10-11 wins every 4-5 years or so like CPJ

CPJ went 63-53 overall over 9 years with exactly 1 season of 10+ wins (2014) without the best recruiting class in modern GT history on the roster (the amazing '07 class). The 2014 season was amazing, but it wasn't part of a sustainable program. It was lightning in a bottle and planning on that to be the way forward is ridiculous.

The success we had in '08-'09 and based off a monster class is more realistic. Even that was a bit "lucky" (very few top classes turn out that many stars, even at the factories) but our failure to build on that class still bothers me a decade+ later. 2014 masked a lot of flaws for far too long.
 

Augusta_Jacket

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CPJ went 63-53 overall over 9 years with exactly 1 season of 10+ wins (2014) without the best recruiting class in modern GT history on the roster (the amazing '07 class). The 2014 season was amazing, but it wasn't part of a sustainable program. It was lightning in a bottle and planning on that to be the way forward is ridiculous.

The success we had in '08-'09 and based off a monster class is more realistic. Even that was a bit "lucky" (very few top classes turn out that many stars, even at the factories) but our failure to build on that class still bothers me a decade+ later. 2014 masked a lot of flaws for far too long.

You can't subtract 2008-2009 from the CPJ record. It doesn't work that way. He won with guys that weren't recruited to his scheme. That's a sign of a good coach.
 

steebu

Ramblin' Wreck
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625
As for within two pounds of uva O Line, we were not. I believe we were 10 pounds less on o line. Our defense line out weighed them though.

I’m not trying to make it seem like our team is big. uga averaged 320 pounds on the line according to their media guide, and we don’t even have a player listed at 320. So we certainly are small compared to uga, but apart from Clemson, I don’t know if we are really at an incredible disadvantage in the ACC. I didn’t look up the weights of everyone we played, so maybe the weight discrepancies really are terrible.

Certainly didn't want to make it sound like you were pushing a false narrative, apologies if it came across that way.

It's just so weird when we guys go through winter conditioning and they say "so-and-so lineman is now 295" and then on various TV broadcasts we hear that nobody on our OL is bigger than 270.

I'm sure UGA and those other schools lie about weight as well, but again, the whole eye test shows that we're definitely smaller. I doubt we'll ever catch up to that level of size/speed, but at least we can be competitive against folks in our division, let alone our league.
 

True2GT

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
54
You can't subtract 2008-2009 from the CPJ record. It doesn't work that way. He won with guys that weren't recruited to his scheme. That's a sign of a good coach.
But that doesn't fit the narrative.

By that that person's logicl one could say that CGC as a head coach has not put anyone in the league (none he's recruited). And his overall head coaching record is 48% while CPJ is 65%.

See how I can point out things that make my point sound more accurate?

But really there are things to be excited about, and things to be concerned about so far. Recruiting looks like it has potential to be better (not elite yet like people are claiming). The defense, when not exhausted, looks very exciting and promising. We can give the offense somewhat of a pass due to injuries at critical positions.

We just need to stop with the narrative of the state of the program being the last coaches fault. The fact is we failed at transitioning, but there are positives to look forward to.
 

smokey_wasp

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But that doesn't fit the narrative.

By that that person's logicl one could say that CGC as a head coach has not put anyone in the league (none he's recruited). And his overall head coaching record is 48% while CPJ is 65%.

See how I can point out things that make my point sound more accurate?

But really there are things to be excited about, and things to be concerned about so far. Recruiting looks like it has potential to be better (not elite yet like people are claiming). The defense, when not exhausted, looks very exciting and promising. We can give the offense somewhat of a pass due to injuries at critical positions.

We just need to stop with the narrative of the state of the program being the last coaches fault. The fact is we failed at transitioning, but there are positives to look forward to.

We are in kind of a cycle. When people make unreasonable attacks on the current staff, defenders are going to obviously point to the state of the roster they inherited, and it's valid context. But then, people get triggered by it.
 

True2GT

Georgia Tech Fan
Messages
54
We are in kind of a cycle. When people make unreasonable attacks on the current staff, defenders are going to obviously point to the state of the roster they inherited, and it's valid context. But then, people get triggered by it.
Who knows where it starts (one could point to the fact that this thread here is an attack on the previous coach and triggering). I think it's time to just let it all go and see where the program goes from here.

Whatever the circumstances, we are 3-9. CGC will get his 3-4 years and if he succeeds great, but if he doesn't, then he had plenty of time and ultimately failed and no excuses should be made then unless funding nosedives again. We seem, for once in a long while, to be trending in the right direction funding wise.
 

vadimivich

Georgia Tech Fan
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81
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We just need to stop with the narrative of the state of the program being the last coaches fault. The fact is we failed at transitioning, but there are positives to look forward to.

The last coach left the squad nearly completely devoid of talent. That's a huge part of the reason we are where we are, and it goes on his legacy.
 
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