Was our defense hamstrung in the past?

[RickStromFan]

Oh, come on. What other site? I mean I believe you, but which one? Don't understand the secrecy. Did you sign an NDA?

I just don't want to give them traffic but in this thread spirit of releasing info - The Hive.

 

[RickStromFan]

And there is what, 15 posters still active on that site? The guys that own that joint pretty much destroyed it with their rules

good - echo chambers suck.

 

[GTRX7]

Here’s a fact I think:

Our defenses under CPJ looked soft, the stats seem to indicate they were soft, CPJ himself even remarked from time to time they were soft.

I’d say they were soft.

Who’s responsible for them being soft?
1) Head Coach
2) Defensive Coordinator and Staff
3) Players

I listed them in order of level of responsibility. Now it could be #3 was incapable of defending as #2 wanted so #1 got pissed or #2 couldn’t ever explain what #3 was supposed to be doing, but nothing absolves #1 of the ultimate responsibility for having less than desirable defenses.

None of this is inconsistent with my post above and the repeated public comments that CPJ made during his tenure. First, CPJ said repeatedly that he let his D coaches coach D. He did not micromanage them. Second, if CPJ had a defensive philosophy, it was to play aggressive to maximize negative plays and turnovers. Again, this is something he said repeatedly over and over.

So, if you want to say that CPJ was "responsible" for soft defenses because he was ultimately head coach, fine. But if you want to say CPJ was the one who coached the defense to be soft, I would argue that is expressly contrary to every public statement he ever made. Despite the flaws CPJ had, I did not view him being dishonest as one of them.

I will also add that the idea that CPJ micromanaged his D coaches is also expressly contrary to virtually every single post by every poster during his 10 years here. Critic or supporter, I never once ever heard the criticism while he was here that CPJ over-managed the defensive coaching. Not once ever.

 

[ncjacket79]

None of this is inconsistent with my post above and the repeated public comments that CPJ made during his tenure. First, CPJ said repeatedly that he let his D coaches coach D. He did not micromanage them. Second, if CPJ had a defensive philosophy, it was to play aggressive to maximize negative plays and turnovers. Again, this is something he said repeatedly over and over.

So, if you want to say that CPJ was "responsible" for soft defenses because he was ultimately head coach, fine. But if you want to say CPJ was the one who coached the defense to be soft, I would argue that is expressly contrary to every public statement he ever made. Despite the flaws CPJ had, I did not view him being dishonest as one of them.

I will also add that the idea that CPJ micromanaged his D coaches is also expressly contrary to virtually every single post by every poster during his 10 years here. Critic or supporter, I never once ever heard the criticism while he was here that CPJ over-managed the defensive coaching. Not once ever.

Look I don’t know what happened between coaches in CPJs staff. What I do know is that all of his DCs had some level of success elsewhere. So PJ either had something to do with their philosophy when they were at Tech, his staff couldn’t recruit defensive players, his system somehow was inherently bad on his own defense or he was really bad at hiring DCs.

 

[bobongo]

I just don't want to give them traffic but in this thread spirit of releasing info - The Hive.

I was on the Hive for a couple of decades. Hive rules prohibit calling for the firing of a coach (not always enforced), but the mere criticism of a coach is certainly allowed and occurs frequently.

 

[Milwaukee]

None of this is inconsistent with my post above and the repeated public comments that CPJ made during his tenure. First, CPJ said repeatedly that he let his D coaches coach D. He did not micromanage them. Second, if CPJ had a defensive philosophy, it was to play aggressive to maximize negative plays and turnovers. Again, this is something he said repeatedly over and over.

So, if you want to say that CPJ was "responsible" for soft defenses because he was ultimately head coach, fine. But if you want to say CPJ was the one who coached the defense to be soft, I would argue that is expressly contrary to every public statement he ever made. Despite the flaws CPJ had, I did not view him being dishonest as one of them.

I will also add that the idea that CPJ micromanaged his D coaches is also expressly contrary to virtually every single post by every poster during his 10 years here. Critic or supporter, I never once ever heard the criticism while he was here that CPJ over-managed the defensive coaching. Not once ever.

You're looking at things through a PJ lens, which is fine. But that's why you're not hearing what people are telling you.

Paul said he wanted the D to play agrressive. So what? Maybe his definition of aggressive defense isn't what defensive coaches think when they think aggressive defense. Let that marinate and don't overanalyze it. Past coaches and players have confirmed this and it's okay that he was not flawless. It's okay. Say it again...it's okay. Breathe. It's okay. He's still one of my favorite Tech coaches ever, hell he may be my personal favorite if I'm being honest. It's okay. Say it with me...it's okay.

Paul was great and I love him.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

None of this is inconsistent with my post above and the repeated public comments that CPJ made during his tenure. First, CPJ said repeatedly that he let his D coaches coach D. He did not micromanage them. Second, if CPJ had a defensive philosophy, it was to play aggressive to maximize negative plays and turnovers. Again, this is something he said repeatedly over and over.

So, if you want to say that CPJ was "responsible" for soft defenses because he was ultimately head coach, fine. But if you want to say CPJ was the one who coached the defense to be soft, I would argue that is expressly contrary to every public statement he ever made. Despite the flaws CPJ had, I did not view him being dishonest as one of them.

I will also add that the idea that CPJ micromanaged his D coaches is also expressly contrary to virtually every single post by every poster during his 10 years here. Critic or supporter, I never once ever heard the criticism while he was here that CPJ over-managed the defensive coaching. Not once ever.

Here's what I don't understand.

Our first DC under CPJ has been the DC at Ole Miss since 2012. His first 4 years had great defenses but the last three years he's been as bad/worse than GT.

After Groh was fired, no one came around looking to hire him. He's not coached since.

Roof was lambasted as being a mediocre DC before he was hired, and his NCSU D, which he was CO-DC for, finished about where his GT defenses usually finished up.

Woody has too small a sample size to really judge, and was converting to a new defensive philosophy, so an off year was warranted.

If CPJ was intentionally holding them back, why haven't these other DCs been appreciably better since leaving? Why did no one hire Groh?

Now, I can understand Roof not bashing CPJ since Roof is a Tech man through and through, and I could even understand Wommack and Woody remaining silent, since they still depend on fellow coaches for jobs, but it seems that Groh would have lashed out if CPJ was the reason his D was so horrible.

My memory is hazy on the Groh era, (probably a good thing), and I know he was less than kind to GT in a couple of post firing interviews, but these allegations never came forward then.

I also have a friend who's son played on the team (on D) for the last 5 years. I asked him about this today and he said his son never said anything to indicate that CPJ was micromanaging the D.

Again. I value @Ibeeballin and have never had reason to doubt him, but I am struggling to contextualize this information with information I have heard from other sources as well.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

You're looking at things through a PJ lens, which is fine. But that's why you're not hearing what people are telling you.

Paul said he wanted the D to play agrressive. So what? Maybe his definition of aggressive defense isn't what defensive coaches think when they think aggressive defense. Let that marinate and don't overanalyze it. Past coaches and players have confirmed this and it's okay that he was not flawless. It's okay. Say it again...it's okay. Breathe. It's okay. He's still one of my favorite Tech coaches ever, hell he may be my personal favorite if I'm being honest. It's okay. Say it with me...it's okay.

Paul was great and I love him.

That's a charitable way to summarize it. Not sure that that was the OPs intent, but it beats the back and forth we've seen here lately.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

Look I don’t know what happened between coaches in CPJs staff. What I do know is that all of his DCs had some level of success elsewhere. So PJ either had something to do with their philosophy when they were at Tech, his staff couldn’t recruit defensive players, his system somehow was inherently bad on his own defense or he was really bad at hiring DCs.

I would dispute your claim that Roof was successful anywhere else. His biggest claim to fame, so to speak, was his time at Auburn, and yet all the Auburn fans I know hated him.

 

[smokey_wasp]

I would dispute your claim that Roof was successful anywhere else. His biggest claim to fame, so to speak, was his time at Auburn, and yet all the Auburn fans I know hated him.

I think everyone knows that Auburn team won in spite of its defense. I'm proud that he got the ring, but Cam Newton carried that whole team and coaching staff.

 

[RickStromFan]

I was on the Hive for a couple of decades. Hive rules prohibit calling for the firing of a coach (not always enforced), but the mere criticism of a coach is certainly allowed and occurs frequently.

I guess it depends on who was modding. I saw people getting banned for criticism of PJ during my time there. And every postgame thread was "No ranting!". What's the point of such a thread except for 1-sided echo chamber discussion?

 

[bobongo]

Here's what I don't understand.

Our first DC under CPJ has been the DC at Ole Miss since 2012. His first 4 years had great defenses but the last three years he's been as bad/worse than GT.

After Groh was fired, no one came around looking to hire him. He's not coached since.

Roof was lambasted as being a mediocre DC before he was hired, and his NCSU D, which he was CO-DC for, finished about where his GT defenses usually finished up.

Woody has too small a sample size to really judge, and was converting to a new defensive philosophy, so an off year was warranted.

If CPJ was intentionally holding them back, why haven't these other DCs been appreciably better since leaving? Why did no one hire Groh?

Now, I can understand Roof not bashing CPJ since Roof is a Tech man through and through, and I could even understand Wommack and Woody remaining silent, since they still depend on fellow coaches for jobs, but it seems that Groh would have lashed out if CPJ was the reason his D was so horrible.

My memory is hazy on the Groh era, (probably a good thing), and I know he was less than kind to GT in a couple of post firing interviews, but these allegations never came forward then.

I also have a friend who's son played on the team (on D) for the last 5 years. I asked him about this today and he said his son never said anything to indicate that CPJ was micromanaging the D.

Again. I value @Ibeeballin and have never had reason to doubt him, but I am struggling to contextualize this information with information I have heard from other sources as well.

Thing is, Woody had a very good record, and everyone was looking forward to a new, aggressive style like he exhibited at Appalachian State. He came here and his defense suddenly played soft, for no ascertainably logical reason (IMO). That's what raised my eyebrow. I agree the ones before him were just bad, but there has to be a reason why he suddenly changed his style to mirror the styles of his predecessors. Then a former assistant (whose name I can't recall) said he ordered his DCs to play soft, and given what we know about Woody before and after, it made sense.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

Thing is, Woody had a very good record, and everyone was looking forward to a new, aggressive style like he exhibited at Appalachian State. He came here and his defense suddenly played soft, for no ascertainably logical reason (IMO). That's what raised my eyebrow. I agree the ones before him were just bad, but there has to be a reason why he suddenly changed his style to mirror the styles of his predecessors. Then a former assistant (whose name I can't recall) said he ordered his DCs to play soft, and given what we know about Woody before and after, it made sense.

Except I saw several posters, the op included, who raved about how much more aggressive we were under CNW.

Is there a link to the former assistants quote?

 

[stech81]

Has anyone thought that the reason Woody played soft could have been because the players signed before he got here were picked to play in a 4-3 and just maybe he didn't feel comfortable till he got his players .

 

[ncjacket79]

I would dispute your claim that Roof was successful anywhere else. His biggest claim to fame, so to speak, was his time at Auburn, and yet all the Auburn fans I know hated him.

He was successful at a number of stops but would agree not at Auburn. His defenses at Tech under O’Leary were pretty good and he improved the defense st Duke when he took over and at Minn. His Penn State defense was pretty good as well.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

Thing is, Woody had a very good record, and everyone was looking forward to a new, aggressive style like he exhibited at Appalachian State. He came here and his defense suddenly played soft, for no ascertainably logical reason (IMO). That's what raised my eyebrow. I agree the ones before him were just bad, but there has to be a reason why he suddenly changed his style to mirror the styles of his predecessors. Then a former assistant (whose name I can't recall) said he ordered his DCs to play soft, and given what we know about Woody before and after, it made sense.

We obviously didn't play aggressive every play under Woody, but I definitely saw more aggressive play throughout the season than I ever saw under Roof. Lots of times the aggressive play actually hurt us, but IMO generally speaking we at least applied pressure that we had not been applying in the past, thus causing the opposing QBs to rush at times.

 

[ncjacket79]

I think everyone knows that Auburn team won in spite of its defense. I'm proud that he got the ring, but Cam Newton carried that whole team and coaching staff.

As noted I agree about Auburn but he did have some successful stops along the way.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

He was successful at a number of stops but would agree not at Auburn. His defenses at Tech under O’Leary were pretty good and he improved the defense st Duke when he took over and at Minn. His Penn State defense was pretty good as well.

His defense at Penn State probably looked good for the same reason that it did at Auburn --- great talent on the offensive side of the ball. I personally think his defenses at Tech under O'Leary sucked, and that was why I couldn't believe we would ever hire him back again.

 

[ncjacket79]

We obviously didn't play aggressive every play under Woody, but I definitely saw more aggressive play throughout the season than I ever saw under Roof. Lots of times the aggressive play actually hurt us, but IMO generally speaking we at least applied pressure that we had not been applying in the past, thus causing the opposing QBs to rush at times.

Roof used more pressure at other schools. I watched a lot of his Duke defenses and they were generally pretty aggressive.

 

[ncjacket79]

His defense at Penn State probably looked good for the same reason that it did at Auburn --- great talent on the offensive side of the ball. I personally think his defenses at Tech under O'Leary sucked, and that was why I couldn't believe we would ever hire him back again.

You really need to go back and look at the numbers