The ACC will delay the start of competition for all fall sports until at least Sept. 1

FredJacket

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I understand your perspective but it isn't quite the same perspective as a head coach. I am assuming that you don't come into close contact with over a hundred 18-23 year olds on a day to day basis on top of being around staff and other coaches as well. There is a significantly heightened risk for an elderly coach above a normal elderly person. I am curious as to how University Presidents will tackle this as well. These people are their employees and they have a legal obligation to protect them at their profession. That is why you are going to see many companies still forcing the elderly to work at home while they phase in other employees. This isn't really just a personal decision. Just imagine what would happen if a few Alabama players got the virus and recovered with no problem but it also got to Saban and he couldn't recover from it. The season would end, and lawsuits would be filed. Heck, because of his stature, we would likely get congressional hearings about it.
One difference between you & me. You seem so sure how everyone would respond to a particular situation. I have no idea.

You make a good point about coaches employers having to proactively protect employees. & same deal for me... I don't know what they'll actually decide as the summer unfolds.
 
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It's not that easy. Coaches need to win and if a player is concerned then he knows **** well he will magically get processed if he redshirts. Forcing players to play in the unknowns of this disease, even if it's just an implicit understanding that they need to play or else, is wrong.

As it is, I am pretty sure that most every NCAA member institution is aware of the lawsuits that would immediately follow should a player die or even becom seriously ill with this disease after playing or practicing with an infected teammate/opponent.

We can disagree with how serious this disease is or isn't, but asking players to play with a sick teammate is ethically wrong.
I know how some people are going to react to this, but here goes anyway --- testing positive does not mean you are sick. In fact, from some cases I have heard about, being sick apparently doesn't even mean you test positive. How the latter can be, I have no idea, but there actually have been a few instances of it. As far as I know, there are no similar flu tests, but if there were, one has to wonder how many people are walking around testing positive for the flu, but not sick with it. It is simply impossible to protect everybody, nor am I sure it is worth it to try to do so.
 

Augusta_Jacket

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I know how some people are going to react to this, but here goes anyway --- testing positive does not mean you are sick. In fact, from some cases I have heard about, being sick apparently doesn't even mean you test positive. How the latter can be, I have no idea, but there actually have been a few instances of it. As far as I know, there are no similar flu tests, but if there were, one has to wonder how many people are walking around testing positive for the flu, but not sick with it. It is simply impossible to protect everybody, nor am I sure it is worth it to try to do so.

I understand where you are coming from, and agree at some point in the future, we are going to have to engage the risk. The purpose of the "social distancing" is to allow time to prepare for that point. The Flu kills a small minority of people who catch it because humans have built up natural antibodies to the flu. We have no natural antibodies to COVID-19. Also, currently in the USA, the death rate from COVID-19 is around 6% of all infected people. If you actually look at the percentage of deaths as a percentage of cases that have an outcome (recovered vs death) then that number is now 21% of the population. Considering the flu kills around .2% or less each year there is an exponentially greater chance of dying from COVID-19 than the flu. Now, I will not get into the politics of shutdowns, etc, but when you have a disease that kills at that rate, then you have no business putting people in harms way for a game. I've paid for my season tickets, and I hope to be in attendance this fall. I will be disappointed if the season is delayed/cancelled, but I will understand completely.
 

orientalnc

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I want the football season to begin as much anyone, but I want to be honest with myself. I think young people in their 20s and 30s are certainly correct that their personal risks are manageable. The risk to everyone else they come in contact with is not. A 20 y/o football player may feel great and never know if he has the virus unless he is tested. (A side note here: the current nasal swabs are returning about 10% false negatives. A bunch of sailors on the US aircraft carrier tested negative after two weeks in isolation following a positive test and are now testing positive again. All were asymptomatic or mildly sick.)

The coaches and professors and university staff they have to deal with daily will be sharing the risk that these players are safe to be around, even if the players are not following the safe distancing recommendations. Maybe it will work. I certainly hope so.

My question for the board is, would you be willing to kick in for tests if the GTAA says the cost of adequate testing for the SAs in the fall is just too great? Would you be OK with just testing the football team and not the other athletes? If you walk into a medical clinic without insurance or symptoms, the COVID-19 test will cost more than $2,000. Maybe the GTAA can get a better price, buy they won't be free. Remember, we would be needing to do regular testing. Probably weekly.
 
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I understand where you are coming from, and agree at some point in the future, we are going to have to engage the risk. The purpose of the "social distancing" is to allow time to prepare for that point. The Flu kills a small minority of people who catch it because humans have built up natural antibodies to the flu. We have no natural antibodies to COVID-19. Also, currently in the USA, the death rate from COVID-19 is around 6% of all infected people. If you actually look at the percentage of deaths as a percentage of cases that have an outcome (recovered vs death) then that number is now 21% of the population. Considering the flu kills around .2% or less each year there is an exponentially greater chance of dying from COVID-19 than the flu. Now, I will not get into the politics of shutdowns, etc, but when you have a disease that kills at that rate, then you have no business putting people in harms way for a game. I've paid for my season tickets, and I hope to be in attendance this fall. I will be disappointed if the season is delayed/cancelled, but I will understand completely.
But the only way to reach "herd immunity" is to proceed as usual. Whether this is a viable approach remains to be seen, but there is apparently an awful lot of people, both within and outside the scientific community claim that it is.
 
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I want the football season to begin as much anyone, but I want to be honest with myself. I think young people in their 20s and 30s are certainly correct that their personal risks are manageable. The risk to everyone else they come in contact with is not. A 20 y/o football player may feel great and never know if he has the virus unless he is tested. (A side note here: the current nasal swabs are returning about 10% false negatives. A bunch of sailors on the US aircraft carrier tested negative after two weeks in isolation following a positive test and are now testing positive again. All were asymptomatic or mildly sick.)

The coaches and professors and university staff they have to deal with daily will be sharing the risk that these players are safe to be around, even if the players are not following the safe distancing recommendations. Maybe it will work. I certainly hope so.

My question for the board is, would you be willing to kick in for tests if the GTAA says the cost of adequate testing for the SAs in the fall is just too great? Would you be OK with just testing the football team and not the other athletes? If you walk into a medical clinic without insurance or symptoms, the COVID-19 test will cost more than $2,000. Maybe the GTAA can get a better price, buy they won't be free. Remember, we would be needing to do regular testing. Probably weekly.
If I can go to a local firehouse and get tested for free, which I apparently can, although I have not, then a $2000.00 cost tag per player per test is inconceivable.
 

Augusta_Jacket

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But the only way to reach "herd immunity" is to proceed as usual. Whether this is a viable approach remains to be seen, but there is apparently an awful lot of people, both within and outside the scientific community claim that it is.

Not completely true. We will get to "herd immunity" regardless. We could get there QUICKER if we proceed as usual, but what would the cost be? Sweden is the country that chose to go that route and their death count per total infected rate is twice ours. 12% vs the 6% here in the USA. If you look at their deaths as a total % of resolved cases, that number spikes to 43% where we were 21% in the USA. So it COULD be twice as bad. Are you willing to name between 12-43 people per every hundred you know and consign them to death? That's what it would be tantamount to.

Again, I am leaving politics out. Just from a disease standpoint I am not ready to push my desire to resume normalcy to a point where it might endanger the health of others I know who could be susceptible to this.
 

Augusta_Jacket

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If I can go to a local firehouse and get tested for free, which I apparently can, although I have not, then a $2000.00 cost tag per player per test is inconceivable.

He was referring to adequate testing. The current testing returning false positives at 10% is problematic for determining health irt playing football in close proximity to others.
 

orientalnc

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Regardless, there is no way that it should cost a school $2000.00 per student per test.
You should go back and read my post. I said the GTAA could probably get a better price, but a healthy 20 yo with no symptoms cannot get one of the free lab tests. The 30 minute tests are not yet reliable enough to screen football players in close contact.
 
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I shutter to think of the death toll if we reach herd immunity without a vaccine.
I hope you realize that we may NEVER get a vaccine. There is no guarantee that a successful one will be developed. There are other viral diseases that have existed for years, and there is still no vaccine for them. And there is, in all likelihood, more than one strain of the Corona virus, and what works for one, will probably not work for others. That's why we have a different flu vaccine every year. Are you willing to put off life as we know it until something is developed? I think most of us are not.
 

Vespidae

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I hope you realize that we may NEVER get a vaccine. There is no guarantee that a successful one will be developed. There are other viral diseases that have existed for years, and there is still no vaccine for them. And there is, in all likelihood, more than one strain of the Corona virus, and what works for one, will probably not work for others. That's why we have a different flu vaccine every year. Are you willing to put off life as we know it until something is developed? I think most of us are not.

The issue with infection is particle density x exposure x time. You are far more likely to get COVID19 if you are sheltering in place than if you are outside. Particle density is low, but exposure rates and duration are higher. Particle density is lower outside and in sunshine ... virtually nonexistent.

The usual MO with pandemics is ... learning to live with it.
 

RamblinRed

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As has been posted before, herd immunity has never been acheived in the modern age without a vaccination program. We could definitely go that route, but the deaths would likely be in the 3M+ range for the US (there are models out there for this) and unfortunately we would break down both our economic and health systems long before we got to that point.

Humans have achieved herd immunity with infectious diseases before but that has largely caused the upheaval of societies to happen and the total re-ordering of humans on the planet.

NY was likely at less than 10% infection rate when it was overwhelmed by the virus. So getting to the 75% level would be horrific and no community would be able to stay standing. Seroprevalence studies around the world generally put the infection rate around 3% in most Western countries (there are areas with higher rates within countries, but even the highest of those are areas like NYC and the Lombardy region of Italy where the rate is at around 20%). Needing to increase the infection rate 25X worldwide is not something that is remotely a working possibility. For starters, the fatality rate would increase from the current estimated fatality rate as health systems worldwide are overwhelmed and more people die because we lack the manpower and resources to help them.

Data shows that 75% of the drop in economic activity from pre-COVID baseline in the US occurred before stay at home orders were implemented in each state. People started seeing things happening and adjusted their behavior even before the government reacted to it. So if you just allow it to spread you end up creating panic and crash your economy.

The 1919 Pandemic killed an estimated 5M in the US (when the population was 1/3 of what it was today) and 50M+ worldwide ( when the worldwide population was below 2B).
This particular virus in the most like that one since then in terms of its combination of transmission and fatality. Our science and medicine is so much more advanced then than, but we still have somewhat limited options in fighting virus'. I think of this like a football or basketball game where you are behind. What do you do? You try to lengthen the game as much as possible, give your team time to come back. That is what I think we are doing now. We are just trying to lengthen the game to allow the coaches (scientiests and doctors) to come up with plans to win in the end. Don't let the other team run up the score where you can't makle a comeback. (I know its not a perfect analogy, but its the one I have).

Also, Sweden wasn't exactly trying to get to herd immunity - their own health leaders will tell you that. it is more that they were relying on their citizens to behave in a certain manner without the government mandating them to. They closed secondary schools and universities. They closed some large factories. They asked citizens to work from home if they are able to. They asked them not to visit the elderly. They allowed restuarants and shops to stay open but asked that people be respectful and use social distancing measures in them (stay 1.5 meters from each other). It has allowed them to stay more open than other countries, but they are still in a recession and suffering job losses at a lower rate than the hard closing countries and their death rate is currently 6th per capita in the world and rising (like to be 2nd or 3rd per capita by the end of the summer since their cases are still occurring at a higher rate than other European countries and the US right now). Keep in mind that Swedish citizens have a very high level of trust in their government leaders and experts, unlike in the US. All Swedish residents have the right to read any official documents (letters, emails, documents, etc) they want as part of the Principal of Public Access. Only personal financial information, ongoing criminal investigations, and security of the realm are exempted.

Hopefully they will find some combination of medical therapeutics and a vaccine that work. If they don't we will likely need to go to more of an Asian model worldwide to make the economy work. That would first require getting the numbers down to where you can legitimately trace and isolate outbreaks. Once you do then you open up your economy (I mean really open up, not just partial openings), but anytime you start to have outbreaks people need to be conditioned to wearing masks and engaging in social distancing programs (not lockdowns), so that things can proceed. Asian countries have alot of muscle memory from previous outbreaks and so very naturally take preventive measures as soon as an alarm is raised about a new virus.

Right now the majority of outbreaks in the US are happening due to large groups of people being in close proximity to each other. It's going to be quite a balancing act allowing some more normality to return but not having too many large groups of people together. the better contact tracing you have the more you can allow larger groups.
 

RamblinRed

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The NY Governor said today he would like to see professional sports back in NY again. He said it would be without fans though.
 

orientalnc

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The bigger question about college football is whether the colleges can open this fall. If they open and students don't follow the distancing requirements, or the college does not enforce them, what happens if a bunch of students are infected? Does the college have protection from liability suits? They are asking Congress and the White House to give them blanket liability protection along with other businesses. That sounds good until you realise that parents and employees might not be willing to accept the loss of recourse if an outbreak happens on campus.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/15/colleges-seek-protection-lawsuits-if-they-reopen
 
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