Tech enrollment

[MWT89]

Cabrera's August email had the following:

Given the increasing student interest in Georgia Tech, the insatiable demand for our graduates from leading companies in Georgia and elsewhere, and the growing startup ecosystem around us, we are making plans to grow the size of our undergraduate program. This year, we admitted our largest class ever, and we are working to expand our faculty, campus facilities, and student services to accommodate even larger numbers of exceptional students in the future.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. What's the strategic objective?

The most recent enrollment numbers I found:

A few things stand out to me.

1. 40% of GT students likely never set foot on campus. I would consider them in a separate category for enrollment data purposes.
2. The big jump in the sophomore class is a result of the multiple transfer options available.
3. We all know getting out in four years is a challenge, but the senior class is larger than the freshman and sophomore classes combined.

 

[jackets55]

A casual observation from the numbers shows what appear to be inverted numbers. The Freshman class should be the largest, with receding numbers as students get older.
Reference your 3rd point. Would this be where co-op students would skew the numbers?

 

[GTpdm]

A casual observation from the numbers shows what appear to be inverted numbers. The Freshman class should be the largest, with receding numbers as students get older.
Reference your 3rd point. Would this be where co-op students would skew the numbers?

GT databases do not store students' level on a "1st-year" through "4th-year" basis (i.e time since original matriculation); the classifications in the DB are still the standard freshman/sophomore/junior/senior levels, based on 0-29 / 30-59 / 60-89 / and 90+ credit hours. (It seems to be in vogue now to describe students' level by "years", because apparently social scientists tell us that students could be stigmatized if they are classified according to their actual progress toward their degree.) So, when you see someone report enrollments on a 1st/2nd/3rd/4th year basis, you must understand that the data was most likely pulled based on accumulated credits, not by years since matriculation.

With that in mind:
You will see a low number of "1st-year" students because when you look up the data, you are really looking up the list of students who have <30 credit hours. Given the dramatic growth in incoming students' AP credits, it is not unusual to see a student come in with 30 hours already in the bag. Add to that the Summer admits, who—with their AP and Summer credits combined—will mostly top 30 hours by the time the enrollment reports are run at the start of Fall.

Just as an example, when I run a query for my School, the GT database reports 48 freshman students. (Shame on me for calling them that; I'm supposed to call them 1st-year students.) However, when I pull up a detailed student-by-student spreadsheet, I see a total of 73 students who matriculated in the Summer and Fall semesters—that's a 35% under-reporting of true first-year students. I actually have three of those 73 who are already classified as juniors.

This same process percolates through each level...many "3rd-year" students are actually 2nd-year students who have 60+ hours, qualify as a junior, are pulled as juniors in database queries, and are then called "3rd-year" students.

As for why the seniors 4th-years are so numerous, it is NOT this difficulty of Getting Out that inflates those numbers, its the difficulty of convincing students to GO AHEAD AND GRADUATE ALREADY, DAMMIT! It is increasingly popular nowadays for students to pursue multiple majors and minors. (For example, about 25% of the students in my School have double- or even triple-majors.) given that each additional undergraduate degree requires 36 additional hours (one year) of coursework, you can see how the number of "4th-year" students will pile up. In my School there are 105 students this Fall who are classified as seniors...43 of whom already have enough hours to graduate—before you even account for the hours on their current schedules. I have one student who will end the term with TWICE as many hours as are needed to get a degree from my School.

(....aaaaaand as I was in the process of typing all this, a series of three emails came in—from one of those seniors who has enough credits to graduate—asking me to sign paperwork to add three separate minors...)

 

[herb]

GT databases do not store students' level on a "1st-year" through "4th-year" basis (i.e time since original matriculation); the classifications in the DB are still the standard freshman/sophomore/junior/senior levels, based on 0-29 / 30-59 / 60-89 / and 90+ credit hours. (It seems to be in vogue now to describe students' level by "years", because apparently social scientists tell us that students could be stigmatized if they are classified according to their actual progress toward their degree.) So, when you see someone report enrollments on a 1st/2nd/3rd/4th year basis, you must understand that the data was most likely pulled based on accumulated credits, not by years since matriculation.

With that in mind:
You will see a low number of "1st-year" students because when you look up the data, you are really looking up the list of students who have <30 credit hours. Given the dramatic growth in incoming students' AP credits, it is not unusual to see a student come in with 30 hours already in the bag. Add to that the Summer admits, who—with their AP and Summer credits combined—will mostly top 30 hours by the time the enrollment reports are run at the start of Fall.

Just as an example, when I run a query for my School, the GT database reports 48 freshman students. (Shame on me for calling them that; I'm supposed to call them 1st-year students.) However, when I pull up a detailed student-by-student spreadsheet, I see a total of 73 students who matriculated in the Summer and Fall semesters—that's a 35% under-reporting of true first-year students. I actually have three of those 73 who are already classified as juniors.

This same process percolates through each level...many "3rd-year" students are actually 2nd-year students who have 60+ hours, qualify as a junior, are pulled as juniors in database queries, and are then called "3rd-year" students.

As for why the seniors 4th-years are so numerous, it is NOT this difficulty of Getting Out that inflates those numbers, its the difficulty of convincing students to GO AHEAD AND GRADUATE ALREADY, DAMMIT! It is increasingly popular nowadays for students to pursue multiple majors and minors. (For example, about 25% of the students in my School have double- or even triple-majors.) given that each additional undergraduate degree requires 36 additional hours (one year) of coursework, you can see how the number of "4th-year" students will pile up. In my School there are 105 students this Fall who are classified as seniors...43 of whom already have enough hours to graduate—before you even account for the hours on their current schedules. I have one student who will end the term with TWICE as many hours as are needed to get a degree from my School.

(....aaaaaand as I was in the process of typing all this, a series of three emails came in—from one of those seniors who has enough credits to graduate—asking me to sign paperwork to add three separate minors...)

Thanks, that clears things up as the 2,108 number for first years looked really low.

 

[MWT89]

Thanks for the clarification on the use of "first year" versus "freshman." I figured there was either a good reason for it's use or a bad one, and it appears it's the latter.

This tweet is timely.



4,876 new students of which 1,300 (27%) are transfers (most are likely sophomores by credit hours).

 

[herb]

Some interesting data in there

 

[reckrider]

In a somewhat related topic, I received my Roll Call request in today’s mail.
Who needs money more, Roll Call or Tharpe?

 

[gtie73]

In a somewhat related topic, I received my Roll Call request in today’s mail.
Who needs money more, Roll Call or Tharpe?

Tharpe by far……

 

[MountainBuzzMan]

I think greatly expanding the student population is good for many reasons.
1. too many highly qualified students were being denied
a. This increases the future donations to Tech
b. Keeps them at Tech instead of some of the regional ENG schools
c. Could get more fans at Bobby Dodd
2. Atlanta area can easily absorb the extra graduates. Tech MUST keep up with the greatly increasing demand
a. The startup ecosystem is exploding
b. The number of companies setting up regional offices keeps increasing

 

[684Bee]

In a somewhat related topic, I received my Roll Call request in today’s mail.
Who needs money more, Roll Call or Tharpe?

School has plenty of money. A-T needs money.

 

[GTpdm]

I think greatly expanding the student population is good for many reasons.
1. too many highly qualified students were being denied
a. This increases the future donations to Tech
b. Keeps them at Tech instead of some of the regional ENG schools
c. Could get more fans at Bobby Dodd
2. Atlanta area can easily absorb the extra graduates. Tech MUST keep up with the greatly increasing demand
a. The startup ecosystem is exploding
b. The number of companies setting up regional offices keeps increasing

Sure it’s good…as long as you keep up with the faculty and TA support needed to teach freshman first-year courses. While the administration is blowing sunshine up everyone’s *sses about our growing student body, what they WON‘T tell you is that this year has been a complete scheduling cluster-f*ck for new students and new-student-advisors, because just about every first-year course was ALREADY full by early July, and none of the Schools in question (Math, Physics, Chemistry, English, Social Science / Humanities) had the resources ($$ to pay faculty/TAs, available time/space in labs) to open additional sections. I am struggling to deal with oven a dozen students who don’t have any meaningful courses (as in, keeping them on track to be ready for their advanced course in two years) on their schedule. Some do not even have “full time” hours yet, and all I can tell them is to put anything—basket-weaving if necessary—on their schedule.

(To be honest, part of this is due to “overflow” from 2020 admits who deferred their enrollment until this year because of COVID…plus students who tried to keep up but ended up withdrawing last Fall or Spring, and are now re-entering the ranks…)

Increasing the student body HAS to come with increases in faculty positions & funding for TAs, as well as a serious consideration of space management issues…I haven’t seen much of that happening, from my position in the trenches—just a bunch of CYA from the higher levels, after the fact..

 

[MountainBuzzMan]

Sure it’s good…as long as you keep up with the faculty and TA support needed to teach freshman first-year courses. While the administration is blowing sunshine up everyone’s *sses about our growing student body, what they WON‘T tell you is that this year has been a complete scheduling cluster-f*ck for new students and new-student-advisors, because just about every first-year course was ALREADY full by early July, and none of the Schools in question (Math, Physics, Chemistry, English, Social Science / Humanities) had the resources ($$ to pay faculty/TAs, available time/space in labs) to open additional sections. I am struggling to deal with oven a dozen students who don’t have any meaningful courses (as in, keeping them on track to be ready for their advanced course in two years) on their schedule. Some do not even have “full time” hours yet, and all I can tell them is to put anything—basket-weaving if necessary—on their schedule.

(To be honest, part of this is due to “overflow” from 2020 admits who deferred their enrollment until this year because of COVID…plus students who tried to keep up but ended up withdrawing last Fall or Spring, and are now re-entering the ranks…)

Increasing the student body HAS to come with increases in faculty positions & funding for TAs, as well as a serious consideration of space management issues…I haven’t seen much of that happening, from my position in the trenches—just a bunch of CYA from the higher levels, after the fact..

Not unexpected. most large organizations are inept. But this kind of crazy "should" help accelerate what is needed to allow for more students

 

[GTpdm]

School has plenty of money. A-T needs money.

No, it doesn’t. Keep in mind that a boatload of $$ nowadays has to go to “support” (students services like health care, mental health/counseling, academic support, foreign studies programs, career placement, academic advising) rather than to direct instruction. Parents complain about how much a college education costs nowadays, but they never stop to think how much more is demanded of colleges nowadays. No matter how much money GT pulls in on the academic side, it simply isn’t enough to do everything that we are asked to do.

I work in a School that teaches part of the core curriculum for the engineering/science/CS majors. We have a huge student throughput every year, and have to reply heavily on grad TAs in order to support lab/recitation requirements. We are turning away grad students that we need to teach those labs, because we cannot afford to pay the GTA stipend from the resources the Institute provides. We’ve done the math: the $$ we get from the Institute is well below the $$ in tuition that our classes generate. The problem is that GT has to earmark a large fraction of tuition to Institute-level responsibilities.

The simple truth is that 21st-century higher education is governed by a boatload of expensive, non-academic bells and whistles designed to earn a higher USN&WR rating and entice students parents to pick “us” over “them”.

[Sorry. Big soapbox issue for me. I do agree that AT needs more support, too.]

 

[LibertyTurns]

Thanks, that clears things up as the 2,108 number for first years looked really low.

First thing that came to my mind was 70% of the Freshman took an extra year to make it thru Year 2.

 

[4shotB]

As for why the seniors 4th-years are so numerous, it is NOT this difficulty of Getting Out that inflates those numbers, its the difficulty of convincing students to GO AHEAD AND GRADUATE ALREADY, DAMMIT! It is increasingly popular nowadays for students to pursue multiple majors and minors. (For example, about 25% of the students in my School have double- or even triple-majors.) given that each additional undergraduate degree requires 36 additional hours (one year) of coursework, you can see how the number of "4th-year" students will pile up.

Smart kids after all. Think of what is ahead for them (although when I was finished with the BS at GT I wanted to get the hell out of there, bad pun intended.) As a HS teacher (second career after engineering) i tell my students that one of the biggest mental adjustments after leaving the "nurturing bosom of Ma Tech" was getting my mind around the idea of being off only two weeks in an entire year. After spending two decades with summer, spring and winter breaks, long holidays, days off due to snow, etc. this was a process. The other thing was adapting to the fact that each year (or quarter in the case of GT) at school the cards were shuffled and you end up with new teachers, professors, classmates, etc. on a continuing basis. The transient nature allows for people to weather bad situations merely by waiting them out. The static eenvironment of work where you saw the same people every day over the course of years was different.

 

[slugboy]

4,876 new students of which 1,300 (27%) are transfers (most are likely sophomores by credit hours).

Georgia Tech has a number of major transfer programs for admission.
https://admission.gatech.edu/transfer/transfer-pathway-programs
If you’ve been around the board for a while, a lot of alums have been frustrated that their children, with better grades and transcripts than they had, weren’t admitted directly from high school. The conditional transfer pathway program gives them a year to have a 3.3 GPA in approved coursework and be admitted. There are similar programs from other Georgia universities for transfer into Tech.

 

[MWT89]

Georgia Tech has a number of major transfer programs for admission.
https://admission.gatech.edu/transfer/transfer-pathway-programs
If you’ve been around the board for a while, a lot of alums have been frustrated that their children, with better grades and transcripts than they had, weren’t admitted directly from high school. The conditional transfer pathway program gives them a year to have a 3.3 GPA in approved coursework and be admitted. There are similar programs from other Georgia universities for transfer into Tech.

Very familiar with it. I have a child at Tech currently who was admitted via the Conditional Transfer Pathway.

 

[forensicbuzz]

GT databases do not store students' level on a "1st-year" through "4th-year" basis (i.e time since original matriculation); the classifications in the DB are still the standard freshman/sophomore/junior/senior levels, based on 0-29 / 30-59 / 60-89 / and 90+ credit hours. (It seems to be in vogue now to describe students' level by "years", because apparently social scientists tell us that students could be stigmatized if they are classified according to their actual progress toward their degree.) So, when you see someone report enrollments on a 1st/2nd/3rd/4th year basis, you must understand that the data was most likely pulled based on accumulated credits, not by years since matriculation.

With that in mind:
You will see a low number of "1st-year" students because when you look up the data, you are really looking up the list of students who have <30 credit hours. Given the dramatic growth in incoming students' AP credits, it is not unusual to see a student come in with 30 hours already in the bag. Add to that the Summer admits, who—with their AP and Summer credits combined—will mostly top 30 hours by the time the enrollment reports are run at the start of Fall.

Just as an example, when I run a query for my School, the GT database reports 48 freshman students. (Shame on me for calling them that; I'm supposed to call them 1st-year students.) However, when I pull up a detailed student-by-student spreadsheet, I see a total of 73 students who matriculated in the Summer and Fall semesters—that's a 35% under-reporting of true first-year students. I actually have three of those 73 who are already classified as juniors.

This same process percolates through each level...many "3rd-year" students are actually 2nd-year students who have 60+ hours, qualify as a junior, are pulled as juniors in database queries, and are then called "3rd-year" students.

As for why the seniors 4th-years are so numerous, it is NOT this difficulty of Getting Out that inflates those numbers, its the difficulty of convincing students to GO AHEAD AND GRADUATE ALREADY, DAMMIT! It is increasingly popular nowadays for students to pursue multiple majors and minors. (For example, about 25% of the students in my School have double- or even triple-majors.) given that each additional undergraduate degree requires 36 additional hours (one year) of coursework, you can see how the number of "4th-year" students will pile up. In my School there are 105 students this Fall who are classified as seniors...43 of whom already have enough hours to graduate—before you even account for the hours on their current schedules. I have one student who will end the term with TWICE as many hours as are needed to get a degree from my School.

(....aaaaaand as I was in the process of typing all this, a series of three emails came in—from one of those seniors who has enough credits to graduate—asking me to sign paperwork to add three separate minors...)

Hey! I was a 4th-year sophomore and proud of it!!

 

[LibertyTurns]

We do have a lot of Co-Ops so that probably explains a bunch of the data.

 

[slugboy]

Very familiar with it. I have a child at Tech currently who was admitted via the Conditional Transfer Pathway.

Transfers used to be an alternate way into Tech; most of the students I knew came in straight from high school. I haven’t tried adding up the numbers, but transfers are a much bigger slice of the pie than they used to be.
I checked—transfers are 15% of the student body. About a third of the transfer applications are accepted, so it’s not a lock by any means.