Passing the ball

techdad

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
102
One of the biggest problems that affects our passing games is that in 99% of passing situations the offense only has 2 receivers on the field. I don't care how good our AB's are, they don't have the skill set to run routes, look for open seems, read coverage and catch passes. For instance, in the UGA game we came out with a bunch set with 3 receivers to the left side, UGA had to call time out. GT has plenty of receivers that have the skill set to open up our offense. Even if we have a WR in the slot, like Smelter, he is talented enough to go in motion to fake getting a toss or taking the toss. In other words, an opposing team has to prepare for more when 3 or more receivers are on the field. We have the talent at WR. It is time to use it!!
 

Mack

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,361
Agree on Mesh. Cross if man settle if zone. It would complement our crack blocks on rocket toss well.

Other things from Air Raid are Shallows. Looks like mesh, but you high low the LBers. One crosses 7 yds deep, the other on the heels of the DLine. 86 and 89 which have a 3 level stretch and Dig coming in behind. 88 Post wheel or Curl Wheel (like RNS) and 84 Curl Flat (also like RNS). All of the 80 series have a check/flare option for the fullback, so he checks for blitzer, if none, he flares out automatically for a safety valve for the qb. One Aback would also have a check/flat. The flat route will complete the curl flat or high low the LBer on a 3 level stretch. The 80 series are easy reads for the qb. Qb knows what defender he is reading, and if for some reason it's not good, you go dig, to back out (fullback flare). It's just easier than looking for small windows or hoping that you and the WR see the same thing to option the route to.

Also the 3 step game is easy to check to. 92 Slant flat (can formation and or tag to go double slant or slant with inside vertical route), 90 vertical-hitch combo (similar to smash) and 99 fade (get it out quick rather than 40 yds down field). The Air Raid is simple for the offense, but complicated for the defense to defend.
Agree we always said if we could do nothing else with our passing game ....flood the zone and clear folks out....it worked in the sixties but now it really takes a kid with his head on straight to run a offense.
 

Mack

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,361
One of the biggest problems that affects our passing games is that in 99% of passing situations the offense only has 2 receivers on the field. I don't care how good our AB's are, they don't have the skill set to run routes, look for open seems, read coverage and catch passes. For instance, in the UGA game we came out with a bunch set with 3 receivers to the left side, UGA had to call time out. GT has plenty of receivers that have the skill set to open up our offense. Even if we have a WR in the slot, like Smelter, he is talented enough to go in motion to fake getting a toss or taking the toss. In other words, an opposing team has to prepare for more when 3 or more receivers are on the field. We have the talent at WR. It is time to use it!!
Agree with you ......one thing I have noticed in past five or so years is we tend to have large and fast wrs but even though they get single coverage on outside we dont get the ball to them.Smelter is a good one and wished we threw more his way yet ......you need time to throw and at times we didnt have it.
 

Mack

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,361
As much as I like the big plays it passing the ball could give us, what I really want to see again is our b-backs getting to the second level then trucking a defender for a huge gain.
what was the old saying " He runs with reckless abandon"
 

GT Man

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
898
We need to run the option with high efficiency first. Then we can talk about passing. Get those safeties to cheat up and BURN EM!
Also would like to see more short passing attempts--quick slants, screens, bubble passes, button hook etc...
 

Mack

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,361
We need to run the option with high efficiency first. Then we can talk about passing. Get those safeties to cheat up and BURN EM!
Also would like to see more short passing attempts--quick slants, screens, bubble passes, button hook etc...
jAgree with yu ....that is the way PJ has always had results.Give him a JC Watts or a Tracy Ham and he willl work wonders with the passing game since everybody will be trying to stop the run.To me we didnt scare anybody with our dive theory.I think most teams put hosses in the middle to muddle the dive and concentrated on wide stuff and thats a good idea for a defense.Its clear to me though you have to run the ball and pitch on time and do it well or one day you will look up and see a old fasioned Gap 8 defense on the other side.
 

nodawgs

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
366
Agree we always said if we could do nothing else with our passing game ....flood the zone and clear folks out....it worked in the sixties but now it really takes a kid with his head on straight to run a offense.

Not necessarily. Offenses are designed to be QB friendly now days. Nick Marshall is not smart, but he looks like a genius running that system in his first year...with no Spring practice. Baylor has had 3 different qbs in 3 years and have continued to increase production each year. Taj Boyd struggled bad in a conventional offense, then made a complete turn around his first year with Chad Morris. Those are just a few examples, but the bottom line is these new spread offenses in the last few years have been simplified for the offense to reduce the learning curve, while becoming more complex for a defense to defend. You don't need a lot of experience or have to be a genius to run them efficiently, although both do help.
 

Rodney Kent

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
558
Location
McDonough, GA
I thoroughly understand the importance of good blocking. however, by being resourceful and using all options in an offense, you can use diversion as a partial alternative to total blocking in order to open up an offense.

If you analyze GT football comparing many of the other schools, it should become evident that we cannot play smash-mouth football with many of them. Yes, we can get some very good players and expect them to play tough football, but our players should be smarter than many other team's players because the entrance exams and education is toughter. In a situation as GT, it becomes essential that the coach has the ability, or want-to, to mix finesse with smashmouth to get the most out of GT's material. Since you can use diversion of plays, plus a good passing game, it appears that Tech should always rely on passing as much as rushing. It should also appear that Tech should use a lot of diversion in the running plays.

Even though the option uses diversion, most fans can sit in the bleachers and tell you the next play that will be called in our offense. Most teams have become accustomed to the sequence of plays called by PJ, so there is less diversion to them than the first couple of years. Also, it is extremely difficult for a running team to pass if they do it only on occasion. There has to be the game situations in passing that become instinct to the quarterback and his receivers. We should always run an offense with a lot of diversion in our rushing plays, plus about half of our plays being passing plays. Even the passing plays should be mixed up from only third down, to occasional first down, and second down. It also seems many of our passes are for the bomb when we need only about five yards to keep a drive going. This is not the time to throw the bomb. The bomb should be mostly reserved when a passing down is not expected. Passing for the bomb on 3rd down is not wise when the opposition knows we are going to pass anyway.

Throwing the bomb is a good tool when you are safely ahead and want to place the nail in the coffin. It is also required when you get behind and need a quick strike, but not on 3rd down when you need another first down.
 

Mack

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,361
Not necessarily. Offenses are designed to be QB friendly now days. Nick Marshall is not smart, but he looks like a genius running that system in his first year...with no Spring practice. Baylor has had 3 different qbs in 3 years and have continued to increase production each year. Taj Boyd struggled bad in a conventional offense, then made a complete turn around his first year with Chad Morris. Those are just a few examples, but the bottom line is these new spread offenses in the last few years have been simplified for the offense to reduce the learning curve, while becoming more complex for a defense to defend. You don't need a lot of experience or have to be a genius to run them efficiently, although both do help.
Agree somewhat with your post and yes if you keep it simple you can win from qb position but with the reads the defense put up now and the way they hid it ...you are right it is great to have both.In fact I still wonder why we dont do this....certainly our qbs should be smarter than ave to run the offense off defensive keys.
 

stylee

Ramblin' Wreck
Featured Member
Messages
603
Part of what nodawgs is talking about, as far as being simple to understand but hard to defend, falls on the coach packaging the concepts in a cohesive way - you turn separate plays into modules of the same sort of concepts, and make everything an extension of another part of the system.


I have no idea how CPJ currently packages things. I'm sure it's something he constantly tinkers with. Though we don't need JT (or Tim or Matt) to be 70% passers - in fact, I'd be worried if they were - I think that getting back to Tevin 2012 levels of completion percentage would be really great for us. Even a 45% rate with more long plays would have us humming.
 

GTRX7

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,428
Location
Atlanta
I thoroughly understand the importance of good blocking. however, by being resourceful and using all options in an offense, you can use diversion as a partial alternative to total blocking in order to open up an offense.

If you analyze GT football comparing many of the other schools, it should become evident that we cannot play smash-mouth football with many of them. Yes, we can get some very good players and expect them to play tough football, but our players should be smarter than many other team's players because the entrance exams and education is toughter. In a situation as GT, it becomes essential that the coach has the ability, or want-to, to mix finesse with smashmouth to get the most out of GT's material. Since you can use diversion of plays, plus a good passing game, it appears that Tech should always rely on passing as much as rushing. It should also appear that Tech should use a lot of diversion in the running plays.

Even though the option uses diversion, most fans can sit in the bleachers and tell you the next play that will be called in our offense. Most teams have become accustomed to the sequence of plays called by PJ, so there is less diversion to them than the first couple of years. Also, it is extremely difficult for a running team to pass if they do it only on occasion. There has to be the game situations in passing that become instinct to the quarterback and his receivers. We should always run an offense with a lot of diversion in our rushing plays, plus about half of our plays being passing plays. Even the passing plays should be mixed up from only third down, to occasional first down, and second down. It also seems many of our passes are for the bomb when we need only about five yards to keep a drive going. This is not the time to throw the bomb. The bomb should be mostly reserved when a passing down is not expected. Passing for the bomb on 3rd down is not wise when the opposition knows we are going to pass anyway.

Throwing the bomb is a good tool when you are safely ahead and want to place the nail in the coffin. It is also required when you get behind and need a quick strike, but not on 3rd down when you need another first down.

Someone smarter than me will know where these statistics are located, but I can guarantee you that our passing downs are spread pretty well between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd downs, and are not just limited to "obvious third and long passing situations." In fact, I got extremely frustrated by CPJ this season due to the number of times that we did pass on 1st down.

Also, I bet there is a way to track 3rd down conversion % in long distance scenarios (e.g. 3rd and over 7). I would venture to guess that we rank fairly well in this statistic (probably top 40).

Anyone know where that stuff is located?
 

Techster

Helluva Engineer
Messages
12,712
Someone smarter than me will know where these statistics are located, but I can guarantee you that our passing downs are spread pretty well between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd downs, and are not just limited to "obvious third and long passing situations." In fact, I got extremely frustrated by CPJ this season due to the number of times that we did pass on 1st down.

CPJ's very first play as our coach was a pass play against Jacksonville State. Nesbitt had a streaking BeyBey wideopen down field and overthrew him. Would have been a TD.

Our offense has never been able to recover since.
 

stylee

Ramblin' Wreck
Featured Member
Messages
603
CPJ's very first play as our coach was a pass play against Jacksonville State. Nesbitt had a streaking BeyBey wideopen down field and overthrew him. Would have been a TD.

Our offense has never been able to recover since.

Hahaha!
 

Rodney Kent

Ramblin' Wreck
Messages
558
Location
McDonough, GA
GTRX7: I agree, we did pass on 1st down sometimes, but it always seemed as if it was the wrong time. I also became frustrated with his calls for passes when it seemed the wrong time to pass. However, when the team is in a rhythm and the running plays are working great, it seems senseless to pass on first down, only to fall incomplete, and then leave only second and third down to try and keep the march going. Then, the frustration would get worse when the next play was up the middle, and it got stuffed. The defense knew B-Back up the middle would be the next play.

Its like the coach is saying, I will pass on first down and make the defense play looser. Well if they stopped the 1st down pass, then they know the B-Back up the middle is next. If I missed on the first pass, I would probably take my chances by passing on the second and third as well. Even if I ran on second down, it would be in space to the A-Back to try and pick up significant yardage.

I also would like to know the statistics on 3rd and long, but broken down against the stronger teams instead of the weaker teams. Also, against the passing teams versus those with poor passers.
 

Dustman

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,163
CPJ's very first play as our coach was a pass play against Jacksonville State. Nesbitt had a streaking BeyBey wideopen down field and overthrew him. Would have been a TD.

Our offense has never been able to recover since.
LOL but I think it was Roddy Jones not BeyBey. Or maybe they were both wide open and we couldn't tell who he was throwing to. :)
 

GTRX7

Helluva Engineer
Messages
1,428
Location
Atlanta
GTRX7: I agree, we did pass on 1st down sometimes, but it always seemed as if it was the wrong time. I also became frustrated with his calls for passes when it seemed the wrong time to pass. However, when the team is in a rhythm and the running plays are working great, it seems senseless to pass on first down, only to fall incomplete, and then leave only second and third down to try and keep the march going. Then, the frustration would get worse when the next play was up the middle, and it got stuffed. The defense knew B-Back up the middle would be the next play.

Its like the coach is saying, I will pass on first down and make the defense play looser. Well if they stopped the 1st down pass, then they know the B-Back up the middle is next. If I missed on the first pass, I would probably take my chances by passing on the second and third as well. Even if I ran on second down, it would be in space to the A-Back to try and pick up significant yardage.

I also would like to know the statistics on 3rd and long, but broken down against the stronger teams instead of the weaker teams. Also, against the passing teams versus those with poor passers.

I can pretty much guarantee you that there are no statistics on 3rd down conversion in 3rd and long situations, only against good defenses, that can be used to compare GT to other good teams. That is asking a bit much. However, I get why you would want that information. That said, I would argue that there is no need to break it further down into teams with good passers and poor passers. My point is not that we are exceptional at converting 3rd and long by the pass, but that we are generally very competitive (i.e. top 40) at converting 3rd and long, regardless of whether we do so by passing or running. I don't care how we get the first down, so long as we get it. For what it is worth, if you broke that data down for only the good defenses we played, I suspect we would still be pretty competitive. The offense this year moved the ball pretty well against everyone but VT.

It is tough for me to question the play calling too much, as there is so much going on that I am quite frankly not equipped to process during a live game. We may run what looks like the b-back dive three times in a row, but one may actually be an option play, and the other two may have had the blocking scheme or gap assignments completely changed. I think sometimes fans fall into the trap of thinking something is too predictable just because it didn't work. That said, I too thought we threw too much on first down :joyful:
 

nodawgs

Jolly Good Fellow
Messages
366
Part of what nodawgs is talking about, as far as being simple to understand but hard to defend, falls on the coach packaging the concepts in a cohesive way - you turn separate plays into modules of the same sort of concepts, and make everything an extension of another part of the system.


I have no idea how CPJ currently packages things. I'm sure it's something he constantly tinkers with. Though we don't need JT (or Tim or Matt) to be 70% passers - in fact, I'd be worried if they were - I think that getting back to Tevin 2012 levels of completion percentage would be really great for us. Even a 45% rate with more long plays would have us humming.

Agree Stylee, and thanks for the clarification! A few concepts can go a long way if you disguise them and dress them up. Not sure exactly how CPJ packages either. I do think that the difficulty with learning the run part of the game for the qb, is how fast he has to make a read and the clarity in which the "read" presents itself. Basically reading the DE on the Veer is not as obvious a read as reading the DE on the zone read. It's just flat going to take more time to perfect the veer read.
 
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