Pass more?

[slugboy]

I don't think adding a shotgun would be a bad choice. Navy and Army do it sometimes (though rarely). I don't know how it could be phrased in a CPJ radio show to not make CPJ defensive, but I would like to know why Army and Navy sometimes do it, but we don't.

Last year, Army wasn’t close to passing as much as we did.

Maybe this year they’ve caught up. They’re 44 completions for 85 attempts for 10.53 ypa

Navy is 41 completions for 95 attempts for 6.97 ypa

We’re 46 out of 100 for 9.21 ypa.

By comparison, Duke is 229 out of 396 for 6.6 yards per attempt. Pitt is similar YPA. Clemson is 8.02 yards per attempt.

Now, we only average 5.9 yards per rushing attempt, while we average 9.22 per pass. Obviously we should pass more often than we run since it’s a more efficient way to move the ball [emoji6]


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[bobongo]

Now, we only average 5.9 yards per rushing attempt, while we average 9.22 per pass. Obviously we should pass more often than we run since it’s a more efficient way to move the ball [emoji6]

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I wouldn't go that far but for those who love their metrics, they do show that we are seventh in the country in yards per passing attempt.
Perhaps we aren't as bad passing the football as we think. Our passing game may not be esthetically pleasing, but it is far more effective that is generally maintained around here.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Let me change this discussion a little. A few times last week PJ called some pass plays not on 3rd and long. I just knew we were fixing to see a nice gain and maybe change how they were playing our running game. The protection was good enough to get the pass off in rhythm, but Taquon didn't throw it. I can only assume that even with one man coverage, our receivers didn't have the speed or moves to work free. Is that the main reason why PJ continues to try variations in the run game this year instead of more passes even when the defense dictates the pass?

Stewart, Qua, and especially Lynch are proven big play makers in the pass game. We don’t have a Bebe, Smelter, or Hill...but we have adequate targets. I don’t think those guys are the problem.

 

[deeeznutz]

100% of my body of work is based upon facts. Things like "The highest ranked team we beat in 2018 so far was UVA at #48" is fact. "We've lost 4 of 5 to Duke" is fact. "VPI is historically bad" is factual - they're headed for their first losing season in almost 3 decades.

If people get to hurl invectives at me first, I see no reason to take the high road in response. But 100% of the time, the defenders of CPJ are the first to go there. It's an interesting observation: A lot of people here get VERY triggered by any suggestion that there's anything wrong with the scheme we run regardless of losses to teams of equal-or-lesser talent like Duke and PITT.

I have given 100% credit to CPJ for turning around our 1-3 start though. I don't hate the guy, have not advocated his firing, and have only suggested a shotgun formation for the possible-generational talent of James Graham, since that's where the kid did most of his damage in HS.

People have different standards and expectations for success and Tech fans aren't different from that. Personally, though the 6-1 finish has been nice, to not win the Coastal this year is pretty lame considering that we absolutely should have. Apparently that belief makes me some sort of Bad Guy. Whatever.

It doesn't matter now though. What does is beating the ****ing mutts on Saturday. If we can pull that off and ruin those *******s' season, I'd consider 2018 a success.

The gist of your argument for how to get better is “put in the backup QB and tweak the offense for him”, which is the single most cliched dumb-fan argument. And for the “best team we beat is #48 Virginia” argument...well that’s just kinda what it is. Any other loss on our schedule (except Clemson) if flipped to a win would put that opponent below #48. So you’re basically just whining over and over again that we didn’t beat Clemson? These types of arguments quickly and easily ID you as either a troll or just a really ignorant fan, either of which isn’t worth arguing with. Whenever questioned, you get super defensive about how big of a fan you are but still pump up other teams needlessly while crapping on “your” team. Also, the “PITT” thing is just super weird and makes you look like a Pitt fan with a bunch of time on his hands.

 

[HurricaneJacket]

I don't think adding a shotgun would be a bad choice. Navy and Army do it sometimes (though rarely). I don't know how it could be phrased in a CPJ radio show to not make CPJ defensive, but I would like to know why Army and Navy sometimes do it, but we don't.

Maybe ask him what's his favorite wrinkle that the guys in his coaching tree have implemented?

 

[MidtownJacket]

@ramblinwreck92



Doubling down, if you can’t find one - retract your comment that all of us “like CPJ fans more than the Program” are accepting of mediocrity

Paging @RamblinWreck92 you keep talking about how people not interested in discussing firing our coach midseason are happy with a 7 win season. I have now asked three times, and you have posted multiple times after my requests, for you to point to a single time anyone has said that.. Are you unable to find one or are you not seeing my posts?

Or.. is it a madeup claim often parroted by people grasping at straws while screaming at the clouds about how much they dislike the option?

 

[MidtownJacket]

I don't think adding a shotgun would be a bad choice. Navy and Army do it sometimes (though rarely). I don't know how it could be phrased in a CPJ radio show to not make CPJ defensive, but I would like to know why Army and Navy sometimes do it, but we don't.

I thought this has been asked before, and Coach responded by saying essentially he thinks it puts the offense at a disadvantage. The basic principle of the option is to disguise or overload a path such that you have numeric advantage on the defense. Rolling out a shotgun or even pistol alignment moves your QB further from the line of scrimmage (essentially giving the defense more time / space to make the read and diagnose the play) if you run it and also makes you travel further to get back to the line of scrimmage. Additionally, if you accept it makes running harder than it tilts your hand to show you likely will be passing from the gun which makes playaction less dangerous.

 

[MidtownJacket]

Maybe ask him what's his favorite wrinkle that the guys in his coaching tree have implemented?

This I would love to see! Would be interesting to hear what he thinks as well..

 

[lv20gt]

Uh, you get that he said "ALL THINGS CONSIDERED." Pretty sure that meant, considering we started 1-3. And, given that start, we finished 6-1. I think most fans should be pretty happy with 6-1.

Now, if he had just said "I am thrilled with this season including the 1-3 start," you might have a point.

Except saying you are happy with 6-1 isn't considering all things. We aren't 6-1. We're 7-4 all things considered.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

Paging @RamblinWreck92 you keep talking about how people not interested in discussing firing our coach midseason are happy with a 7 win season. I have now asked three times, and you have posted multiple times after my requests, for you to point to a single time anyone has said that.. Are you unable to find one or are you not seeing my posts?

Or.. is it a madeup claim often parroted by people grasping at straws while screaming at the clouds about how much they dislike the option?

find me a post where I advocate firing CPJ or express hatred towards the man, 2 baseless accusations leveled against me here numerous times.

Also, I'm not seeing most of your posts as I've not spent much time here lately - apologies.

Meanwhile, I'm putting animosity aside to focus on hating the mutts.

 

[MidtownJacket]

find me a post where I advocate firing CPJ or express hatred towards the man, 2 baseless accusations leveled against me here numerous times.

Also, I'm not seeing most of your posts as I've not spent much time here lately - apologies.

Meanwhile, I'm putting animosity aside to focus on hating the mutts.

My Man, we can agree on joining forces in that noble effort. Give 'em hell Tech.

 

[ibeattetris]

I thought this has been asked before, and Coach responded by saying essentially he thinks it puts the offense at a disadvantage. The basic principle of the option is to disguise or overload a path such that you have numeric advantage on the defense. Rolling out a shotgun or even pistol alignment moves your QB further from the line of scrimmage (essentially giving the defense more time / space to make the read and diagnose the play) if you run it and also makes you travel further to get back to the line of scrimmage. Additionally, if you accept it makes running harder than it tilts your hand to show you likely will be passing from the gun which makes playaction less dangerous.

I watch a lot of Penn State games and they will line up in the shot gun on third and one and run it up the middle. I never want to see us do that. Or even 4th and 5:

I yelled at my TV over that one.

Under center certainly should be the 95-99% formation. Third and twelve though? Put the qb back and let him see the field.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

The gist of your argument for how to get better is “put in the backup QB and tweak the offense for him”, which is the single most cliched dumb-fan argument. And for the “best team we beat is #48 Virginia” argument...well that’s just kinda what it is. Any other loss on our schedule (except Clemson) if flipped to a win would put that opponent below #48. So you’re basically just whining over and over again that we didn’t beat Clemson? These types of arguments quickly and easily ID you as either a troll or just a really ignorant fan, either of which isn’t worth arguing with. Whenever questioned, you get super defensive about how big of a fan you are but still pump up other teams needlessly while crapping on “your” team. Also, the “PITT” thing is just super weird and makes you look like a Pitt fan with a bunch of time on his hands.

See, this type of response just makes you look like a Pollyanna homer doofus. Duke and Pitt are both ranked higher than 48 right now. Had we beaten either of them, that'd still be true. But we didn't. Whenever facts about our team or our schedule get pointed out, too many fans get all defensive and point out how bad the previous coach was, as if what happened 12 years ago means a damn thing. Fact is, we've now fallen behind the Dukes and PITTs of our conference and that's something that I and many other fans think sucks. Fact is, plenty of fans here click the word "Like" after reading many of my opinions so I'm clearly not alone in my POV.

I've said it before and will say it again- It's pretty simple: There are fans like you who are content with 2nd place and there are fans like me who aren't, especially against the weak schedule we played. It's better than losing to all these crappy teams but this is a disappointing year IMO, given the experience we had on both sides of the ball and the weak Coastal. Again though, a victory this Saturday makes 2018 a success. Also, there are fans like many here who enjoy watching tons of run plays with almost no passing and there are fans like many here who enjoy watching pass plays and a balanced attack. Why the latter angers the former so much is a mystery to all in the latter category.

PS: PITT is an abbreviation for the college "Pittsburgh". Not sure how that confused you or weirded you out. Frankly, for an acronym to make you 'super weird' says more about you than me.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

If your argument was "fire CPJ because his defenses and special teams consistently suck" I wouldn't say a word. I disagree with that being a good choice since he is trying to find a DC worth a lick, but it certainly has merit since he has failed every time (please Nate be our savior).

Saying CPJ's offensive scheme sucks because we don't pass more is just wrong. Our offense is in the top 25 in both efficiency metrics in both per play and per drive metrics. The offense just isn't the part of CPJ that needs to be criticized. We certainly need to be better at passing. If we pass 8 times like we did against VT, we need to hit 5 of them. 1/8 is not good. But you haven't argued we need to be better, just that we should do it more. I want coach to call the plays that cause us to score points. If that is a pass then let it fly. If it's a "qb keep" as you call it, then run it up.

Respectfully, my argument is not nor has ever been to "Fire CPJ". Even when we were 1-3, I wasn't saying we need to change coaches.

I think being good at something comes with repetition so by passing it more, we'd be 'better at passing' .

 

[Wreckaholic]

I'm not against shotgun in 3rd and 8+ scenarios, but I dont think it gives us quite as much advantage vs under center as some espouse. I think the main advantage is the QBs (who have been shorter lately) could get better looks at pre-snap d-alignments.

The main thing I would do is allow the linemen to go from a 2 point stance. We could still run this from under center (might be a little cumbersome), but the OL could cut, drive block well enough and pass blocking should be better. We'd still have the full playbook at our disposal.

 

[ibeattetris]

Also, there are fans like many here who enjoy watching tons of run plays with almost no passing and there are fans like many here who enjoy watching pass plays and a balanced attack.

I never want a coach who calls plays because what he thinks the fans will enjoy watching....

I have watched some horrid spread passing teams. Watching three incomplete passes and trotting your punter out isn't exciting. Watching a kid throw for 500 yards is, but so is watching a kid rush for 200. I want to see us move the ball against a team, and right now, we have a coach who has consistently moved the ball when fumbles haven't been an issue.

we've now fallen behind the Dukes and PITTs of our conference

Both programs outspend us in football. It is time for the fans and donors to put their money where their mouths are. We are behind in spending, and if we don't want to fall further behind as a program, that needs to be fixed regardless of the coach.

 

[ibeattetris]

I'm not against shotgun in 3rd and 8+ scenarios, but I dont think it gives us quite as much advantage vs under center as some espouse. I think the main advantage is the QBs (who have been shorter lately) could get better looks at pre-snap d-alignments.

The main thing I would do is allow the linemen to go from a 2 point stance. We could still run this from under center (might be a little cumbersome), but the OL could cut, drive block well enough and pass blocking should be better. We'd still have the full playbook at our disposal.

I legitimately don't know the answer to this. Does being under center for a pass play have adverse effects on shorter quarter backs? My guess is shotgun would give shorter qbs an advantage as their line of sight will be better quicker. I honestly don't know if this is the case though. I know a lot of our r&s quarter rollouts where we move the pocket are meant to help the qb move and see the field, but I don't know to what extent the shotgun could do similar.

 

[bobongo]

Let me change this discussion a little. A few times last week PJ called some pass plays not on 3rd and long. I just knew we were fixing to see a nice gain and maybe change how they were playing our running game. The protection was good enough to get the pass off in rhythm, but Taquon didn't throw it. I can only assume that even with one man coverage, our receivers didn't have the speed or moves to work free. Is that the main reason why PJ continues to try variations in the run game this year instead of more passes even when the defense dictates the pass?

I wonder about some of those "pass plays". I noticed that when Taquon went back to "pass" on the first two-point conversion, he glanced very briefly over to the right side of the end zone, and then gazed over to the left side - only there weren't any receivers on the left side. There was plenty of green grass there, though, and he took off. My take was that maybe on the off chance there was a wide-open receiver he would throw it, but the play was principally designed as a QB draw. Dropping back to "pass" was mostly a ruse, or so it seemed to me.

 

[ibeattetris]

I wonder about some of those "pass plays". I noticed that when Taquon went back to "pass" on the first two-point conversion, he glanced very briefly over to the right side of the end zone, and then gazed over to the left side - only there weren't any receivers on the left side. There was plenty of green grass there, though, and he took off. My take was that maybe on the off chance there was a wide-open receiver he would throw it, but the play was principally designed as a QB draw. Dropping back to "pass" was mostly a ruse, or so it seemed to me.

The primary receiver flat out ran into a line backer, so TM improvised. CPJ calls it out in an interview.



Watch our right side aback. He just runs into the linebacker, and then converts it into a block once TM scrambles. So TM looks right to draw away coverage then left to see his primary, who happened to not be there.

 

[deeeznutz]

See, this type of response just makes you look like a Pollyanna homer doofus. Duke and Pitt are both ranked higher than 48 right now. Had we beaten either of them, that'd still be true. But we didn't. Whenever facts about our team or our schedule get pointed out, too many fans get all defensive and point out how bad the previous coach was, as if what happened 12 years ago means a damn thing. Fact is, we've now fallen behind the Dukes and PITTs of our conference and that's something that I and many other fans think sucks. Fact is, plenty of fans here click the word "Like" after reading many of my opinions so I'm clearly not alone in my POV.

I've said it before and will say it again- It's pretty simple: There are fans like you who are content with 2nd place and there are fans like me who aren't, especially against the weak schedule we played. It's better than losing to all these crappy teams but this is a disappointing year IMO, given the experience we had on both sides of the ball and the weak Coastal. Again though, a victory this Saturday makes 2018 a success. Also, there are fans like many here who enjoy watching tons of run plays with almost no passing and there are fans like many here who enjoy watching pass plays and a balanced attack. Why the latter angers the former so much is a mystery to all in the latter category.

PS: PITT is an abbreviation for the college "Pittsburgh". Not sure how that confused you or weirded you out. Frankly, for an acronym to make you 'super weird' says more about you than me.

Pitt isn’t an acronym, where the letters are capitalized as they’re each the first letter of their own word, but an abbreviation of a longer word, therefore there is no reason to capitalize the whole thing. It’s not PITTsburgh, it’s Pittsburgh.
And I have no clue what ranking you’re working with (I looked at “power ranking”, the only list I found that goes down that far), but both Pitt and Duke are LOWER than us, with us 36, Duke 39, UVA 47, and Pitt 48. Flip our Duke game to a loss for them and yeah they probably drop below that level. So you’re still just whining that we didn’t beat Clemson.
Congrats