No Slant Route - WHY?

[bke1984]

I'm not trying to be negative, but I think it's OK to discuss X's and O's of football. It's part of why I like it. Do I think I know more than CPJ? ...hell no...but I think it's OK to talk about the scheme and wonder whether other things would work...

To be honest, I'm not sure any scheme would have made this year's offense effective......but for arguments sake...

Our best seasons under CPJ have come when we have a credible threat to throw the football. The only time this has been the case is when we had: 1) one of the two best receivers in the NFL (in '08 and '09), or 2) two NFL caliber receivers at the same time ('14). I'm not sure Smelter was quite NFL caliber in '13 after taking so much time off from football, and Waller just wasn't there yet.

The other years we were 6-7, 8-5, 7-7, 7-6.

Were we doing anything different with our throws in '08, '09, and '14? ...I don't think so, but we just had stud receivers our there to make plays. Those guys bailed us out time after time on third and long with jump ball catches where the play had otherwise broken down....and they should have...they're NFL receivers.

But if we don't have those guys, we can get into big trouble when we are forced to throw...and I think some adjustments could be made to alleviate those issues and make our attack all the more dangerous. When we do pass, I'm just curious why we don't try to attack defenses in different ways when our offense struggles. The smoke routes are virtually gone this year...I think Jeune would be a beast on those plays. Our O line is awful at pass protecting...it seems like we could slow down pass rushes with a few more screens (to be fair, we have tried this some this year...a welcome change IMO). What about swing passes to the B-back?

Maybe it stems from having to spend so much time on the run scheme that we don't have time to add this type of stuff, but I think we could really benefit from it.

...or maybe we just need to go get another big NFL receiver. That would help, too

 

[CuseJacket]

1) Agreed. Our O line has been awful, and JT has no time. What if we tried max protect with A backs when we need to pass instead of using 5 OL and 1 BB...honestly, I'm just curious as to why we don't do this, rather than saying we should

We've gone max protect more than a few times. If I'm remembering correcting I think it was a big part of the UVA gameplan, which makes sense given their scheme. Generally it turned into a 1 or 2 man route with little separation. And the defense was still getting an unreasonable amount of pressure. I could be mistaken on the game, but I know it's been tried. There were a lot of things that went wrong, just like everything else.

2) Like I said in an earlier post. I don't care what the route is, but we have to do something. We can't continue to do long drop backs and try to go way down field when DB's are 10 yards off. The smoke route has been non-existent this year...not sure why

Just my perception here... our few smoke route attempts this year have been terrible. Neither Summers nor Jeune have shown the acceleration/explosiveness required to gain anything more than 4 yards at best. Summers tripped over his own feet one time. Without the quickness nor power/stiff arm to create separation, I can see reasons why CPJ could be unwilling to try it more often.

 

[danny daniel]

The one change I would suggest for improving our passing game does not affect our O scheme, formations, or practice time. Just throw the ball sooner!

 

[Techster]

Would have liked to have seen more dump off passes to the BB. Works very well when we use it. Heck, it allowed Skov (SKOV!!!) to get 2 TDs against ND's defense. If I remember correctly, it went for big gains other times as well.

I could only imagine what Marshall would do with that kinda space.

 

[iceeater1969]

Routes are somewhat important.
Example.
Early this year ab (think it was qua) went down middle for long pass. The Safety was late and we got big gain.
At end of game needed 10 plus yards to keep drive alive. We ran same play. This time the safety was acclerating over to ab who was streaking down field. I was sure ab would plant and cut against the grain, but he did the same route and the play was stopped.

More important.
We need to have several plays that are passing plays ready for end of game situations . It would be great if they had some sort of novel routes, but

The current plan of sending them in one at a time and burning clock is ceeding the end of game to opponent.

This leads to the ineffective GO LONG I will CHUNK IT play.
Prior to the chunk it play, We look disorganized .

 

[AE 87]

I at least like the fact that you put thought into this post. But googling offensive statistics and rankings and throwing them out there is just not gonna cut it if you wanna discuss X's and O's. If you tell me we have the quick slants concept in our offense then man o man, I'd love to see it some more, or any. 5'10 quarterbacks with no pass protection shouldn't be looking at quick slants?? I'm confused.

If anyone thinks we shouldn't be popping smoke routes and slants on 3rd and short with corners playing 8 yds off, then I got nothin lol. The "We're an option team and by God that's what we've done in the past, heck just look at the statistics" crowd is tiring.

I think PJ will make some adjustments in the very thing being discussed in this thread. Hell, he may pop a slant on first down Saturday just to please Milwaukee.

FWIW, you might try googling those statistics, but it would probably get you back to this forum because I created the metric and calculate them. If you spent time on this forum for reasons other than complaining about our coach after a loss, then you would probably have seen several threads where I discuss them and give reasons for considering them a valid metric for measuring offensive performance.

Second, you introduce smoke-routes as if it had been part of the prior conversation. It hadn't been. The thread was about slants, and especially the quick slant to account for CB's giving cushion. I addressed that issue. I said we have slants, but we don't feature the quick slants that you probably have in mind. The reason why a short QB is an issue is that you have to think of both vision and ball trajectory of the short pass, as well as the timing. It is more difficult for a short qb to see over and throw a short pass over taller OL, especially when they struggle controlling defenders in pass protection. Also short quick passes require a very accurate passer. We are typically not going to be getting those guys to Tech, regardless of our offense.

As far as the smoke-route, you are correct, that does respond to a big cushion from the CB's, and we've used it. We've used it every year. So you are creating a straw man when you suggest that there are people who don't think we should be doing that.

Finally, I cited the statistics to show that our offensive scheme and coaching and recruiting has been working by and large. So, why don't you give your reasons for thinking that the problem this year is all of a sudden scheme etc.

 

[AE 87]

People talking about slant passes are interesting to me as are your statts. Lets not run people off.

Your stat of us currently being #38 in points per drive against power 5 and the fact that we are ALL L and only 1 miricale on techwood W, makes me wonder if ppd correlates well to winning.

Seems like the other half = defense points allowed per drive is just as important??

I have always advocate d a very aggressive defense to get more drives for the offense. Get the damn ball somehow back un the hands of our offense. How aggressive do u think the d should be. ??

First, I made a mistake. We are #47 in ppd vs p5. (Out of curiosity, I calculated how well we were scoring when we didn't turn the ball over. We are #38 in points/drive not ending in a turnover vs pwr 5 opposition).

Yes, the defensive points/drive allowed is also important. Here's a comparison of the mid-season rankings based on subtracting a team's ppd vs pwr5 allowed (DefPPD) from their ppd vs pwr 5 (OffPPD) to the Mid-Season AP rankings:
https://gtswarm.com/threads/half-season-rankings-ap-differential-ppd.8342/#post-186040

Here's a comparison of the more complicated opponent-adjusted metric from football outsiders for measuring offensive and defensive efficiency to OffPPD and DefPPD:
https://gtswarm.com/threads/fei-and-ppdvpwr5.8556/#post-190668

 

[tech_wreck47]

I have heard people ask why we don't have a short passing game, and the answer is we do, but the thing is we don't have a "complex" short passing game, it's just so simple with not many routes. I have been wondering why we don't do the quick slants or the 5 and out type routes, it just doesn't make sense to me. Can anyone explain? Sorry if it has already been explained.

 

[iceeater1969]

First, I made a mistake. We are #47 in ppd vs p5. (Out of curiosity, I calculated how well we were scoring when we didn't turn the ball over. We are #38 in points/drive not ending in a turnover vs pwr 5 opposition).
Thanks.
Reading first chart shows the delta does corelate to RANKING
Yes, the defensive points/drive allowed is also important. Here's a comparison of the mid-season rankings based on subtracting a team's ppd vs pwr5 allowed (DefPPD) from their ppd vs pwr 5 (OffPPD) to the Mid-Season AP rankings:
https://gtswarm.com/threads/half-season-rankings-ap-differential-ppd.8342/#post-186040

Here's a comparison of the more complicated opponent-adjusted metric from football outsiders for measuring offensive and defensive efficiency to OffPPD and DefPPD:
https://gtswarm.com/threads/fei-and-ppdvpwr5.8556/#post-190668

Thanks for the first chart.

First, I made a mistake. We are #47 in ppd vs p5. (Out of curiosity, I calculated how well we were scoring when we didn't turn the ball over. We are #38 in points/drive not ending in a turnover vs pwr 5 opposition).

Yes, the defensive points/drive allowed is also important. Here's a comparison of the mid-season rankings based on subtracting a team's ppd vs pwr5 allowed (DefPPD) from their ppd vs pwr 5 (OffPPD) to the Mid-Season AP rankings:
https://gtswarm.com/threads/half-season-rankings-ap-differential-ppd.8342/#post-186040

Here's a comparison of the more complicated opponent-adjusted metric from football outsiders for measuring offensive and defensive efficiency to OffPPD and DefPPD:
https://gtswarm.com/threads/fei-and-ppdvpwr5.8556/#post-190668

Thanks
The first chart shows good correlation between ranking and the delta.
The records of wins losses did not show correlation as a bunch of EARLY teams had good records.
Wonder what our delta was at time of first chart ? Also think your chart would be interesting after end of year.
Thanks

 

[Boomergump]

Quick Slants? Well, I think Ibeballin did a pretty good job with his comment but I want to expand a little bit. A quick slant will usually be thrown in the area of the field where defenses are pre-disposed to go already in defending against our run game. Some teams line up guys in the slot, whether or not we have an offensive player there! To make matters worse, if they don't line somebody up there, then they often have somebody hightailing it there immediately after the ball is snapped, whether a MLB or a S. Pretty much every team we have played fires their CBs as a run blitz on a random basis, whether or not they are lined up 8 yards off. If we called a quick slant on one of those plays, it is a pick 6 without a doubt. The CB run blitz is just something that other offenses don't have to worry about, so a quick slant is a bigger part of their arsenal.

I am not a fan of the quick slant for us at all. In general, we need to design pass plays to go to the areas of the field that defenders are leaving, not running towards. I like the smoke route. I love the AB drag routes off max protect look and I love the BB screens as counters to sending the house while spying JT.

 

[danny daniel]

Quick Slants? Well, I think Ibeballin did a pretty good job with his comment but I want to expand a little bit. A quick slant will usually be thrown in the area of the field where defenses are pre-disposed to go already in defending against our run game. Some teams line up guys in the slot, whether or not we have an offensive player there! To make matters worse, if they don't line somebody up there, then they often have somebody hightailing it there immediately after the ball is snapped, whether a MLB or a S. Pretty much every team we have played fires their CBs as a run blitz on a random basis, whether or not they are lined up 8 yards off. If we called a quick slant on one of those plays, it is a pick 6 without a doubt. The CB run blitz is just something that other offenses don't have to worry about, so a quick slant is a bigger part of their arsenal.

I am not a fan of the quick slant for us at all. In general, we need to design pass plays to go to the areas of the field that defenders are leaving, not running towards. I like the smoke route. I love the AB drag routes off max protect look and I love the BB screens as counters to sending the house while spying JT.

When the OLB lines up inside our OT showing blitz we should have the WR go long between the CB and S and the AB go on a quick down and out. I saw this completed one time to the AB for a first down in the Miami game. It will work or it will stop the OLB from lining up inside our OT. It is a quick and easy throw.