New recruit Petty $800,000 per year NIL

[RonJohn]

The schools will just identify them as independent contractors and then don't have to negotiate with their union.

That is post of the issue. If the "employer" dictates when, where, and how the "contractor" works, they are reclassified as employees.

 

[cpf2001]

The contractor vs employee game to try to get around having to deal with unions is one Hollywood played a long time ago and the unions largely won.

I don’t think the schools would want to avoid it for long, though. I think PR-wise they aren’t going to willingly start the process, but I think in the end the bulk of schools will be largely thrilled by being able to put a bunch of restrictions back in place after it turns from “arbitrary restrictions put in by collusion” to “collectively bargained contractual restrictions.”

 

[stinger78]

There was already a National Labor Relations Board decision that the Dartmouth basketball players should be categorized as employees and could unionize. Dartmouth is an Ivy League school that doesn't even provide athletic scholarships. It isn't a court decision, and judges might rule differently. However, if you look at the legal definition of employee, student-athletes hit most of the points used to decide whether someone is an employee or not. I am not making any argument about whether they should be categorized as employees or not. I am only stating that if you look at the legal definition, things such as whether they are told when to engage in activities, where to engage in those activities, how to engage in those activities, etc, student-athletes check most of the boxes. I don't see how, from a purely legal standpoint, they are not declared employees at some point unless there is action taken by Congress.

I have major issues with the definition of “employee.” Most of us deal with or act as independent contractors. They just updated the definition, and there is now almost no difference between a long-term subcontractor who works one job for a year or two with one company.

College athletes are part time at best - at least they used to be. These days they seem to practice year round.

I don’t know what the answer is there, but the cost of occupationally related injuries would be very high. If I’m GT HR, I don’t want to accept that risk. Even shared risk (insurance) would be expensive.

 

[RonJohn]

I have major issues with the definition of “employee.” Most of us deal with or act as independent contractors. They just updated the definition, and there is now almost no difference between a long-term subcontractor who works one job for a year or two with one company.

College athletes are part time at best - at least they used to be. These days they seem to practice year round.

I was in Woodruff two different years around 1990. Both of those years, basketball players were in the suite next to mine. Their schedule was insane. Out of the dorm by six for workouts or practice. Then classes, then more workouts, then mandatory study hall sessions. They didn't get back to the dorm until 9 or 10 on days with no games. If you count required class time and mandatory study hall, they were engaged in mandatory activities for at least 70 hours per week during the season. Even out of season, they had mandatory workouts, classes, and study hall. Not sure how many hours per week that was, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was at least 40.

I don’t know what the answer is there, but the cost of occupationally related injuries would be very high. If I’m GT HR, I don’t want to accept that risk. Even shared risk (insurance) would be expensive.

Which is related to what people have been missing or ignoring for a long time about college sports. Little leagues are not going to accept responsibility for injury risks. They are amateur groups who organize a fun activity for kids. High schools are not going to accept responsibility for injuries. They are educational entities who organize fun activities and drive comradery among students.

College is different. Since at least the 80s, college football has been run as a business. Get on TV more to: Make more money to pay for better players to be able to make more money to: Build "Taj Mahal" facilities to be able to make more money to: Pay for better coaches to be able to make more money to: Build even better "Taj Mahal" facilities to make more money to: .......... Some coaches make more than $10 million per year now. Some assistant coaches make several million per year now. DRad reportedly makes more than $3 million as an AD.

College football is being run as a business, not an amateur collection of schools whose students compete in athletics. The only way to be an amateur collection of schools again would be to drop out of the money race. I doubt any P4 schools would do that. I doubt many if any G5 schools would do that. I also doubt that many FCS or D2 schools would do that. What is happening now isn't because of the athletes. It is a reckoning that has been coming since at least the 80s, and maybe back to the 60s when teams started oversigning players and cutting them. What is happening now is the price of the -win at all costs- attitudes of the last 40-60 years.

 

[stinger78]

I hear you, but if we count “required” class time and study, every GT student is an “employee.” Easily 40 hours per week. Ha!

Seriously, all the hours these guys have to put in needs to be seriously curtailed. The NCAA used to do that kind of thing.

 

[RonJohn]

I hear you, but if we count “required” class time and study, every GT student is an “employee.” Easily 40 hours per week. Ha!

Seriously, all the hours these guys have to put in needs to be seriously curtailed. The NCAA used to do that kind of thing.

Regular GT students can decide what classes to take, when to take them, and when to study or not study. Regular GT students can decide to take a gap year.

The NCAA has regulations on official football time. However, from my understanding that doesn't include "voluntary" workouts and "voluntary" film sessions. It is also my understanding that "voluntary" doesn't actually mean that players can decide whether or not to participate. It all goes back to whether college football is actually an amateur endeavor. It is being run as a business. Just because you use the word "voluntary" to describe something doesn't mean that it is indeed voluntary. Just because you use the word "amateur" to describe NCAA football doesn't mean that it is actually being run as an amateur organization.

 

[stinger78]

Regular GT students can decide what classes to take, when to take them, and when to study or not study. Regular GT students can decide to take a gap year.

The NCAA has regulations on official football time. However, from my understanding that doesn't include "voluntary" workouts and "voluntary" film sessions. It is also my understanding that "voluntary" doesn't actually mean that players can decide whether or not to participate. It all goes back to whether college football is actually an amateur endeavor. It is being run as a business. Just because you use the word "voluntary" to describe something doesn't mean that it is indeed voluntary. Just because you use the word "amateur" to describe NCAA football doesn't mean that it is actually being run as an amateur organization.

It was a joke.

 

[forensicbuzz]

I was in Woodruff two different years around 1990. Both of those years, basketball players were in the suite next to mine. Their schedule was insane. Out of the dorm by six for workouts or practice. Then classes, then more workouts, then mandatory study hall sessions. They didn't get back to the dorm until 9 or 10 on days with no games. If you count required class time and mandatory study hall, they were engaged in mandatory activities for at least 70 hours per week during the season. Even out of season, they had mandatory workouts, classes, and study hall. Not sure how many hours per week that was, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was at least 40.


Which is related to what people have been missing or ignoring for a long time about college sports. Little leagues are not going to accept responsibility for injury risks. They are amateur groups who organize a fun activity for kids. High schools are not going to accept responsibility for injuries. They are educational entities who organize fun activities and drive comradery among students.

College is different. Since at least the 80s, college football has been run as a business. Get on TV more to: Make more money to pay for better players to be able to make more money to: Build "Taj Mahal" facilities to be able to make more money to: Pay for better coaches to be able to make more money to: Build even better "Taj Mahal" facilities to make more money to: .......... Some coaches make more than $10 million per year now. Some assistant coaches make several million per year now. DRad reportedly makes more than $3 million as an AD.

College football is being run as a business, not an amateur collection of schools whose students compete in athletics. The only way to be an amateur collection of schools again would be to drop out of the money race. I doubt any P4 schools would do that. I doubt many if any G5 schools would do that. I also doubt that many FCS or D2 schools would do that. What is happening now isn't because of the athletes. It is a reckoning that has been coming since at least the 80s, and maybe back to the 60s when teams started oversigning players and cutting them. What is happening now is the price of the -win at all costs- attitudes of the last 40-60 years.

That's why it's called being a "full-time" student. The anticipation is that between class time and study time, the effort is going to be at least 40 hours per week. School is your full-time job. Most students are full-time students. Bottom line, athletes are not employees of the university. They are students involved in extracurricular activities at a varsity level.

 

[jojatk]

That's why it's called being a "full-time" student. The anticipation is that between class time and study time, the effort is going to be at least 40 hours per week. School is your full-time job. Most students are full-time students. Bottom line, athletes are not employees of the university. They are students involved in extracurricular activities at a varsity level.

My daughter is a full time student at Georgia Tech. She sometimes has classes with athletes. There’s very little similarity between them despite both being on scholarship.

 

[Ibeeballin]

That's why it's called being a "full-time" student. The anticipation is that between class time and study time, the effort is going to be at least 40 hours per week. School is your full-time job. Most students are full-time students. Bottom line, athletes are not employees of the university. They are students involved in extracurricular activities at a varsity level.

This is where the hypocrisy comes.

 

[RonJohn]

That's why it's called being a "full-time" student. The anticipation is that between class time and study time, the effort is going to be at least 40 hours per week. School is your full-time job. Most students are full-time students. Bottom line, athletes are not employees of the university. They are students involved in extracurricular activities at a varsity level.

At most schools, they are athletes who also have an obligation to complete some school work in order to remain eligible as an athlete.

How many school do you think recruit students who are able to compete in athletics? Many if not most schools recruit athletes, and then see how they can get them eligible, and get them enrolled in the school. It hasn't been student first - athlete second since at least the sixties. There are a lot of schools at which they are basically only athletes and the school part is a joke. UNC risked the accreditation of the university in order to keep athletes eligible. Jan Kemp's complaint was that the mutts interfered and forced the professors to give passing grades to 9 athletes in REMEDIAL ENGLISH so they could play. In the 80s Kemp said "All over the country, athletes are used to produce revenue. I've seen what happens when the lights dim and the crowd fades. They're left with nothing. I want that stopped." NCAA football has been a shell game. It declares itself to be amateur athletics, but it does not operate that way.

 

[GTRambler]

Is an annual NIL salary cap needed?

If so, would it work?

I dunno.

Thought I’d ask.

Some food for thought:

If NIL Money Isn't Capped College Sports Could Become Corporate Sports

With no cap on NIL money, and corporations getting into the NIL game, college athletic programs may have to find a corporate sugar daddy or fade into irrelevance.

247sports.com

 

[beeteam]

Is an annual NIL salary cap needed?

If so, would it work?

I dunno.

Thought I’d ask.

Some food for thought:

If NIL Money Isn't Capped College Sports Could Become Corporate Sports

With no cap on NIL money, and corporations getting into the NIL game, college athletic programs may have to find a corporate sugar daddy or fade into irrelevance.

247sports.com

Who will enforce a salary cap? The NCAA (ha)? The bagman would get his job back.

 

[RonJohn]

Who will enforce a salary cap? The NCAA (ha)? The bagman would get his job back.

If you have a CBA, then both sides would be interested in enforcing it. Teams would want to control costs. The player's union would want to maximize payments to players and would use any "bagman" type payments as negotiation or as a breach of contract item against the teams.

Without a CBA, i don't see how you could legally install a salary cap.

 

[stinger78]

If you have a CBA, then both sides would be interested in enforcing it. Teams would want to control costs. The player's union would want to maximize payments to players and would use any "bagman" type payments as negotiation or as a breach of contract item against the teams.

Without a CBA, i don't see how you could legally install a salary cap.

I suppose they could bargain over length of practices or amount of cream cheese you can put on a bagel, but that doesn't seem worth the effort.

 

[beeteam]

If you have a CBA, then both sides would be interested in enforcing it. Teams would want to control costs. The player's union would want to maximize payments to players and would use any "bagman" type payments as negotiation or as a breach of contract item against the teams.

Without a CBA, i don't see how you could legally install a salary cap.

The CBA would provide compensation enforcement between the schools and the players, but what about over money streams? Pro athletes can make as much on endorsements as the market will bear. I would think the same would hold true at the college level.

 

[cpf2001]

The CBA would provide compensation enforcement between the schools and the players, but what about over money streams? Pro athletes can make as much on endorsements as the market will bear. I would think the same would hold true at the college level.

They’d likely follow the WNBA model and (attempt) to enforce that endorsements and marketing deals are legit and not just thin facades over bypassing the salary cap. Similar situation in terms of most teams not having super deep pockets. There’s a recent investigation in that league over just that. Effectiveness TBD.

Possibly the leagues would try to negotiate for even tighter restrictions on outside income, and players at not-too-10 schools may or may not be inclined to agree since it’s probably helping them compete. Hard to say. CBA restrictions also aren’t particularly tested in court, as courts have been pretty hands off around collectively bargained sports deals, but it’s not like there’s a law saying exactly what would and wouldn’t be allowed if it started getting challenged (for most pro leagues this is a different, more precedence-based thing than an actual antitrust exemption).

 

[forensicbuzz]

This is where the hypocrisy comes.

I think you're reading more into this than I intended. These are student-athletes that are participating in an extracurricular activity. Varsity sports are voluntary, not compulsory. If these student-athletes decided to become just students, they wouldn't be thrown out of school, they'd just lose their athletic scholarship and the other benefits that came with being a student-athlete. They're not employees of the schools. Just because the schools have been able to monetize viewership of these varsity activities doesn't change the status of the student-athlete. A student-athlete today is no different than a student-athlete from the 1950's (except the time demand is significantly greater).

That being said, I have no problem with student-athletes benefiting from the fruits of their labor. The schools should share the wealth. That has nothing to do with employment status. I always thought it was ridiculous that the NCAA wouldn't allow SAs to work or benefit from their own celebrity all in the name of trying to prevent cheating. They're reaping what they sowed.

 

[jgtengineer]

They’d likely follow the WNBA model and (attempt) to enforce that endorsements and marketing deals are legit and not just thin facades over bypassing the salary cap. Similar situation in terms of most teams not having super deep pockets. There’s a recent investigation in that league over just that. Effectiveness TBD.

Possibly the leagues would try to negotiate for even tighter restrictions on outside income, and players at not-too-10 schools may or may not be inclined to agree since it’s probably helping them compete. Hard to say. CBA restrictions also aren’t particularly tested in court, as courts have been pretty hands off around collectively bargained sports deals, but it’s not like there’s a law saying exactly what would and wouldn’t be allowed if it started getting challenged (for most pro leagues this is a different, more precedence-based thing than an actual antitrust exemption).

Anything money related should never follow the WNBA.

Besides Clark is making more money off her nike deal than the entire league makes in salaries.

 

[forensicbuzz]

At most schools, they are athletes who also have an obligation to complete some school work in order to remain eligible as an athlete.

How many school do you think recruit students who are able to compete in athletics? Many if not most schools recruit athletes, and then see how they can get them eligible, and get them enrolled in the school. It hasn't been student first - athlete second since at least the sixties. There are a lot of schools at which they are basically only athletes and the school part is a joke. UNC risked the accreditation of the university in order to keep athletes eligible. Jan Kemp's complaint was that the mutts interfered and forced the professors to give passing grades to 9 athletes in REMEDIAL ENGLISH so they could play. In the 80s Kemp said "All over the country, athletes are used to produce revenue. I've seen what happens when the lights dim and the crowd fades. They're left with nothing. I want that stopped." NCAA football has been a shell game. It declares itself to be amateur athletics, but it does not operate that way.

Sorry, my point is they're not employees any more than any other student involved in an extracurricular activity. This has nothing to do with what benefits should be made available to student-athletes. Read my response to @Ibeeballin