NC State Postgame

[Jim Prather]

Agree. People on this site love making claims over stuff they have no control of. The lack of support Collins is getting from fans is absurd, and then the same people wonder why we aren’t competing with the big name programs.
Collins going to be our coach for at least three more years no matter what. So people can either start supporting him and hope it works out or just go root for another team.

And there it is -- "Agree with me or go away!" Have you ever considered that, by definition, someone posting on this site must be a RABID GT fan. If that person is posting something that you don't like, have you ever considered that they have a different opinion which leads them to have legitimate concerns? Rather than just telling them "Go Away", try to have a rational dialogue and change their mind.
Admittedly, right now, it is really hard. There is simply not a lot of positive data to point to. Most of the "Better days are coming" posts are based on the expectation of better recruiting. While a valid point of view, it is based on a somewhat nebulous and squishy logic which can be hard for engineering minds to accept.
Your best bet would be to show how CGC improved recruiting rankings at all the schools he has been at and how those improved recruiting classes caused the overall records of those teams to improve. Make that correlation, and you will get everyone on board...

 

[smokey_wasp]

I just reread through this thread and I didn't see any such post.

It is there a few posts above yours. You may have to click show ignored content to see it.

 

[stech81]

TStan and Collins have a plan and are executing the plan. They don’t care what any of us think thankfully. We just had a coach who was pretty darn successful but was way to sensitive. Collins is going to do him just like Johnson did. And he’ll be successful just like Johnson was. And here’s a fact- Collins has won more ACC games in year 1 than Johnson did in year 8. Whether Collins ever turns into a great game day coach I don’t have the answer, but I do know that we’ll have a 2 deep of legit P5 players and he won’t have years like Johnson did in year 8 because he understands recruiting is the “lifeblood”. Johnson believed his system was the “lifeblood” and he was wrong.

Not to care what the fans want is not a very good idea.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

For some of my fellow old-timers, it seems like the last 3 guys we have had as HC have met serious and very vocal opposition from the time they set foot on campus from a small % of the fan base. I don't recall people doing this with Curry, Ross, O'Leary or even Lewis. I was at school with Pepper Rogers but after he was hired and had been there a few years. I knew people were grumbling at the back end of his tenure.

Am I seriously forgetful? Or is it a function of this newfangled interwebs thing??

Both CPJ and CGC have had a small but vocal minority of the fan base deriding them from day 1. I don't recall CCG getting the same treatment until a couple of years in, but message boards weren't the same back then.

I very much think this is a function of social media and the "outrage culture" that is becoming more prevalent today.

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

It is there a few posts above yours. You may have to click show ignored content to see it.

Gotcha. This makes sense. I should have figured that someone dumb enough to post that would be someone I had ignored...

 

[MGTfan]

And there it is -- "Agree with me or go away!" Have you ever considered that, by definition, someone posting on this site must be a RABID GT fan. If that person is posting something that you don't like, have you ever considered that they have a different opinion which leads them to have legitimate concerns? Rather than just telling them "Go Away", try to have a rational dialogue and change their mind.
Admittedly, right now, it is really hard. There is simply not a lot of positive data to point to. Most of the "Better days are coming" posts are based on the expectation of better recruiting. While a valid point of view, it is based on a somewhat nebulous and squishy logic which can be hard for engineering minds to accept.
Your best bet would be to show how CGC improved recruiting rankings at all the schools he has been at and how those improved recruiting classes caused the overall records of those teams to improve. Make that correlation, and you will get everyone on board...

You’re missing the point here. I’m not saying Coach Collins is above criticism nor am I saying that there aren’t legitimate concerns, but let’s look at the facts.

Fact: Assuming nothing very bad happens off the field, Coach Collins is going to be our coach for at least three more years after this season.

Fact: It’ll be easier for Collins to succeed if he is getting the support of the fan base as opposed to not getting support from fans.

So if I see people who aren’t supporting Collins, then yes, I would prefer they just go away. Because I want GT to succeed, and these “fans” are making it more difficult rather than making it less difficult.

Valid criticism, such as “we should have gone for it on that fourth down instead of punting” is not the same as “not supporting”. Comments like “I already know Geoff Collins is the next Bill Lewis” are things I consider not supporting, considering it’s literally impossible for anyone to know that.

 

[WreckinGT]

I’ll be glad to let it go when others give this coach a chance. All I want is fairness. But, I’ll definitely be here pointing facts out over emotional histrionics. Did you not see the post above someone made saying if Collins doesn’t win 6 NEXT YEAR he won’t be here in year 8. Why don’t you ask that guy about that completely unfair post. So, if Collins wins 4 next year then goes undefeated in the next 5 seasons he won’t be here in year 8? It’s that kind of total lack of knowledge or fairness that I’ll always point out and frankly what this board needs more of.

I have no problem with you supporting CGC. If you are going to constantly bash the previous regime in your support of the current regime then you are just going to throw gasoline on the fire for CGC critics. If your goal is to get everyone more onboard with CGC then you aren't really going about it the right way.

 

[Jim Prather]

You’re missing the point here. I’m not saying Coach Collins is above criticism nor am I saying that there aren’t legitimate concerns, but let’s look at the facts.

Fact: Assuming nothing very bad happens off the field, Coach Collins is going to be our coach for at least three more years after this season.

Fact: It’ll be easier for Collins to succeed if he is getting the support of the fan base as opposed to not getting support from fans.

So if I see people who aren’t supporting Collins, then yes, I would prefer they just go away. Because I want GT to succeed, and these “fans” are making it more difficult rather than making it less difficult.

Valid criticism, such as “we should have gone for it on that fourth down instead of punting” is not the same as “not supporting”. Comments like “I already know Geoff Collins is the next Bill Lewis” are things I consider not supporting, considering it’s literally impossible for anyone to know that.

No I understood what you were saying. You have an implicit assumption in you statements, though. You are implying that "Since CGC is going to be here 3 more years, we should not be criticizing him." This is a patently false assumption - every decision he makes as a head coach for the rest of his life is going to be second guessed by someone.
What you really want is the illogical arguments to stop, and here I tried to provide the solution. Provide a logical reason why he will succeed and most people here will agree with you - especially the skeptics who are looking for some reason to believe in CGC and not finding it. Just saying "I believe we will get better - now go away" is not actually going to solve the problem.
I will end my contribution to this discussion with this - never expect something from someone else which you are not willing to do/provide yourself. In this context, if you are not willing to put forth a logically supported argument, don't expect a logically supported argument from whoever you are debating with (and then just tell them to go away)...

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

You’re missing the point here. I’m not saying Coach Collins is above criticism nor am I saying that there aren’t legitimate concerns, but let’s look at the facts.

Fact: Assuming nothing very bad happens off the field, Coach Collins is going to be our coach for at least three more years after this season.

Fact: It’ll be easier for Collins to succeed if he is getting the support of the fan base as opposed to not getting support from fans.

So if I see people who aren’t supporting Collins, then yes, I would prefer they just go away. Because I want GT to succeed, and these “fans” are making it more difficult rather than making it less difficult.

Valid criticism, such as “we should have gone for it on that fourth down instead of punting” is not the same as “not supporting”. Comments like “I already know Geoff Collins is the next Bill Lewis” are things I consider not supporting, considering it’s literally impossible for anyone to know that.

I would ask what you mean by "support?" What if, for instance, the very same person who gripes about Collins on this board attends every home game and donates to the A-T fund? Would you want that person to go away, or would their overall devotion to the program allow them an opinion contrary to yours?

In the end, I don't think a lot of what we gripe about on here makes all that much of a difference. If our coaching staff is perusing this board for validation we are in deep

 

[LibertyTurns]

I have no problem with you supporting CGC. If you are going to constantly bash the previous regime in your support of the current regime then you are just going to throw gasoline on the fire for CGC critics. If your goal is to get everyone more onboard with CGC then you aren't really going about it the right way.

They just don’t get it. Let’s trash the current players and constantly remind everyone they’re defective, let’s denigrate every accomplishment they or their previous teammates had, etc. It’s all about avoiding accountability for actions and hoping somewhere in the future it all works out.

This must be taught in the slick business schools now because it’s rampant in industry. If they spent a fraction of the time the spent on excuse making actually trying to improve, maybe the improvement wouldn’t take so long. Make me shake my head every time I hear someone blurt out some sort of save your *** BS.

 

[Jim Prather]

I think maybe you quoted the wrong person -- he is making the same argument you are...

 

[MGTfan]

I would ask what you mean by "support?" What if, for instance, the very same person who gripes about Collins on this board attends every home game and donates to the A-T fund? Would you want that person to go away, or would their overall devotion to the program allow them an opinion contrary to yours?

In the end, I don't think a lot of what we gripe about on here makes all that much of a difference. If our coaching staff is perusing this board for validation we are in deep

No I understood what you were saying. You have an implicit assumption in you statements, though. You are implying that "Since CGC is going to be here 3 more years, we should not be criticizing him." This is a patently false assumption - every decision he makes as a head coach for the rest of his life is going to be second guessed by someone.
What you really want is the illogical arguments to stop, and here I tried to provide the solution. Provide a logical reason why he will succeed and most people here will agree with you - especially the skeptics who are looking for some reason to believe in CGC and not finding it. Just saying "I believe we will get better - now go away" is not actually going to solve the problem.
I will end my contribution to this discussion with this - never expect something from someone else which you are not willing to do/provide yourself. In this context, if you are not willing to put forth a logically supported argument, don't expect a logically supported argument from whoever you are debating with (and then just tell them to go away)...

My point isn’t about whether he will or will not succeed though. So why would I put together an argument for that? I’m not trying to convince people he will succeed. Like every other person on this board, I do not know whether he will succeed or not.

Here is my only point: More support from fans will make it easier for Collins to succeed, less support from fans will make it more difficult for him to succeed.

 

[Em_Jae20]

 

[Jim Prather]

My point isn’t about whether he will or will not succeed though. So why would I put together an argument for that? I’m not trying to convince people he will succeed. Like every other person on this board, I do not know whether he will succeed or not.

Here is my only point: More support from fans will make it easier for Collins to succeed, less support from fans will make it more difficult for him to succeed.

Wow - I have perhaps never seen a more clearly defined case of the motte and bailey fallacy. Augusta Jacket and I were arguing two completely different points, yet you try to conflate the two in order to make an argument which refutes neither one...

 

[Augusta_Jacket]

My point isn’t about whether he will or will not succeed though. So why would I put together an argument for that? I’m not trying to convince people he will succeed. Like every other person on this board, I do not know whether he will succeed or not.

Here is my only point: More support from fans will make it easier for Collins to succeed, less support from fans will make it more difficult for him to succeed.

Well, it helps if you define support. Many of the people who gripe here that you complain about are season ticket holders who donate. It could be argued that their support is valuable enough to forgive their ranting on a message board. I can deal with contrary opinions if fans are buying tickets.

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

Sorry won,t happen!

No one else in our division is foolish enough to agree to this. Would you exchange Clemson for say Wake Forest? Commonsense would seem to point to a rotating system where by each Coastal team would play each Atlantic team on a home and home basis and then rotate to another team but it was thought at the time, I suppose, that certain teams had natural rivals in the other division so the big losers were Tech with Clemson,and Miami paired with FSU. The big winners were whoever got to play Syracuse, Boston College, Wake Forest, and NC State depending upon the year.

 

[jayparr]

No one else in our division is foolish enough to agree to this. Would you exchange Clemson for say Wake Forest? Commonsense would seem to point to a rotating system where by each Coastal team would play each Atlantic team on a home and home basis and then rotate to another team but it was thought at the time, I suppose, that certain teams had natural rivals in the other division so the big losers were Tech with Clemson,and Miami paired with FSU. The big winners were whoever got to play Syracuse, Boston College, Wake Forest, and NC State depending upon the year.

EXACTLY!!

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

For some of my fellow old-timers, it seems like the last 3 guys we have had as HC have met serious and very vocal opposition from the time they set foot on campus from a small % of the fan base. I don't recall people doing this with Curry, Ross, O'Leary or even Lewis. I was at school with Pepper Rogers but after he was hired and had been there a few years. I knew people were grumbling at the back end of his tenure.

Am I seriously forgetful? Or is it a function of this newfangled interwebs thing??

Why would any one criticize Curry? He was pitied more than anything. Pepper probably got more immediate opposition than any coach in living memory at Tech including Coach Collins. He was way more polarizing a figure for a much larger slice of the fan base than Collins, Chan, or Ross. IMHO In fact, I don't really think it is even close. Even a lot of his coaching colleagues couldn't stand him. Funny thing is that Coach Dodd as the AD at the time kind of appreciated his quirky genius in running the wishbone even though Pepper drove him crazy as a player. Fun fact. Pepper was Ray Graves offensive coordinator when Florida upset the Jackets in 1960 (I think that was the year) when Bobby Dodd Jr. was the Gator quarterback along with mighty mite Larry Liberatore. Pepper came up with the idea of alternating quarterbacks as Liberatore was the running quarterback in the split T and Bobby Dodd Jr. was the passing quarterback. It is still regarded as one of the biggest Florida wins of all time because of how bad the Gators were at the time. It did not take Ray Graves long to straighten out that program.

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

You’re missing the point here. I’m not saying Coach Collins is above criticism nor am I saying that there aren’t legitimate concerns, but let’s look at the facts.

Fact: Assuming nothing very bad happens off the field, Coach Collins is going to be our coach for at least three more years after this season.

Fact: It’ll be easier for Collins to succeed if he is getting the support of the fan base as opposed to not getting support from fans.

So if I see people who aren’t supporting Collins, then yes, I would prefer they just go away. Because I want GT to succeed, and these “fans” are making it more difficult rather than making it less difficult.

Valid criticism, such as “we should have gone for it on that fourth down instead of punting” is not the same as “not supporting”. Comments like “I already know Geoff Collins is the next Bill Lewis” are things I consider not supporting, considering it’s literally impossible for anyone to know that.

It is not a given that we can just recruit our way out of this mess. Coach Collins has put all his chips in on relentless recruiting the 404 and raising the profile of Georgia Tech around the state but there is no guarantee that this is going to work. The academic hurdles are formidable as is the perception that the ACC is some kind of red haired step child to the mighty SEC. The last 8 years have seen our recruiting rankings (according to SB Nation, not sure how accurate they are) as being in the mid to upper 40s. Job one for the Collins crew is to get that down to the lower 30s or upper 20s. Can he do it? It is going to be hard but there is talent galore in metro Atlanta so why not get our share of it? Getting the players signed and on campus is step one but they have to be developed and coached in his system. The lack of linemen is glaring and will not be fixed anytime soon. It is going to be a hard and bumpy road but I got to hand to Coach Collins, the man has boundless self confidence. We will see.

 

[Heisman's Ghost]

Wow - I have perhaps never seen a more clearly defined case of the motte and bailey fallacy. Augusta Jacket and I were arguing two completely different points, yet you try to conflate the two in order to make an argument which refutes neither one...

"Mott and Bailey"? Who did they play for?