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Discussion in 'The Swarm Lounge' started by Whiskey_Clear, Jun 30, 2019.

  1. Technut1990

    Technut1990 Helluva Engineer

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    I don’t think Wreck and I agree on anything but it would take some very personal shots at me before I reported someone or wanted them warned. I guess it’s the subject that we are arguing about. If we were talking about predictions on the team it would be different. Politics, religion and family are subjects that we should go into knowing that people are armed with sharp knives. It’s unfortunate that a political thread is closed given the contents therein will never be solved without the arguments. We must hear one another freely. Shutting things down punishes people who enjoy the debating
     
    Whiskey_Clear likes this.
  2. jwsavhGT

    jwsavhGT Moderator Staff Member

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    Unfortunately, when the tone moves away from debating politics/attacking politicians to attacking blog members then things are shut down.
    I would relish good debating...but if you apply the definition below, there appears to be a lack of "exchange views about" or "argue the pros and cons of". What invariably happens is sharp retorts and digs that lead some threads down a very dark hole.

    debating (present participle)
    1. argue about (a subject), especially in a formal manner.
      "the board debated his proposal" ·
      discuss · confer about · talk over · talk through · talk about · exchange views on · exchange views about · thrash out · argue · argue about · argue the pros and cons of ·
      [more]
    I appreciate the opportunity to debate with you.
     
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  3. TampaBuzz

    TampaBuzz Helluva Engineer

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    There certainly isn't much "debating" going on here. It seems that everybody has their own set of "facts" and believes that if they scream loud enough everyone will change their mind - way too much emotion and not enough logic. Of course, a debate is normally held between a small number of people that agree on some basic rules of respect and decorum. The scientific/engineering debates I get involved with also require that unbiased data be used to support a position.

    I would love to see some political debates here where fear mongering is not allowed. Where the problem to be debated is clearly stated, every opinion is respected (no LOLs or similar derogatory things), and measured data (not newspaper articles or political quotes) guides the discussion. It would help if there is also a general agreement to be open minded and stick to the debate subject, i.e. don't drag the discussion off to the hinterlands. I know it will never happen on an internet forum...but I can dream.
     
    MWBATL and Lotta Juice like this.
  4. Technut1990

    Technut1990 Helluva Engineer

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    Yeah I understand where y’all are coming from but for me this is a way to pass the off season. I really don’t expect either group to change the minds of the other but it is fun. I don’t know Wreck or anybody else personally but I figure they can’t be all bad if I’m talking to them on a Tech site, which they check into daily.

    Politically speaking my son and I are essentially like political discussions on this blog, we see things totally different than each other but at the end of the day it’s a political argument not the end of our relationship.

    I look at it as my duty to try and help the challenged ( liberals ). See a little humor goes a long way. Again I wasn’t talking about you Wreck ( well not in that particular sentence anyway )
     
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  5. MWBATL

    MWBATL Helluva Engineer

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    I agree wholeheartedly. How can we make this happen?
     
  6. Lotta Juice

    Lotta Juice Helluva Engineer

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    Well, without heavy moderation/regulation of the lounge (which no-one would want, least of all the moderators) then you have to have some agreement about the level of discourse you'll have. Likely not to happen throughout the Lounge but I could see it happening in a thread with the goal of debate/discussion. And for that to work it has to be a discussion of ideas/policies/events that aren't expressed through the lens of "this is my position and if you're on the other side or think differently then you're an idiot/moron/mentally ill". It would have to at least have an openness for discussion for it to be a conversation/debate rather than a snarkfest. Because that's all it takes is one snarky comment and then someone gets defensive and snarky back and then it's just mudslinging.

    Could it happen?

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
    bwelbo and jwsavhGT like this.
  7. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Banned

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    Lol...(oops)

    If you omit news articles (current events) and political quotes.....you pretty much omit political debate.
     
  8. TampaBuzz

    TampaBuzz Helluva Engineer

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    I will ask a question in response to this. If it is true, as many on this page have suggested, that all media sources are "fake", then we can't use them as a source of verifiable information to demonstrate a point. If is is true, also as many have suggested, that all politicians are liars, then we certainly can't use them as sources of information. So what do we do? Maybe some media sources are actually pretty reliable, but are put down, because they publish information that somebody doesn't want to believe - even if accurate. Maybe some politicians are actually pretty factual, but get shouted down because of their party affiliation. It is really hard to find truth these days without getting distracted by all the biased BS floating around on the internet.
     
  9. bwelbo

    bwelbo Helluva Engineer

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    I don't think there is a problem with people quoting NBC, PBS, NPR, MotherJones, Breitbart, or whatever - you take the information with a grain of salt based on what it is. The problem on this site has always been when people start saying "stupid liberals" and "racist republicans" and "F off" and "you have a reading comprehension problem" and bigot this misogynist that and so on and so forth.
     
  10. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Banned

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    It’s not that hard. Regardless if fake or lies...it’s worthy on conversation because it comes from mainstream media or politicians.

    We’re dems before Trukp lying about illegal immigration? Their rhetoric during the Obama administration is almost the same as Trump’s.
     
  11. MWBATL

    MWBATL Helluva Engineer

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    I get what you are saying. But in point of fact, getting to the truth SHOULD be what debates are all about. Sometimes, it is good to realize that something you thought was true...wasn't. It makes you humble and realize that maybe, just maybe...you're not right about EVERYTHING and therefore, on the off chance this is the one-in-a-million case where you're right, you might want to be a little more polite to the person on the other side who just might, maybe, this-one-time, be right.

    The issues that lend themselves best to this type of debate are arguments about economics, where we have official government statistics to rely upon. Not perfect, but probably the most factually based data out there. I find that many mainstream media sites distort this data all the time to make their points.

    Where the debate breaks down is on the cultural issues. Like the Georgia black representative who initially claimed she was harassed by a white man at the grocery store who used Trump's words about "go back where you came from" only to have it come out 2 days later that he did not *actually* say that, he just her *feel* that way (yet she still defends her initial accusation). In my mind, it is a classic case of inverse racism....a black demonstrating their own inherent racism...but tbh, that is merely my opinion and interpretation. This can then lead into a debate about whether hate crimes are up or not. FBI stats say they are up. BUT, FBI stats in prior years are misleading because many police agencies are only just now beginning to categorize crimes that way, so comparisons to prior years are honestly very hard to make. The compilation of hate crime "fakes" (like the one I just mentioned) is enormously lengthy, and many have gotten coverage in conservative media and NOT covered in mainstream or liberal media, so we are left with different facts and no way to honestly resolve this controversial issue.

    I am not sure how to solve this one. Media all seems to have the axe they want to grind. I would love to find some media that truely showed all the information, all the data, all the facts, both left and right....and then let the audience decide. Let me know if you find that.
     
  12. Technut1990

    Technut1990 Helluva Engineer

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    Inherently political discussion is an eyelash away from an argument. We can attempt to discuss issues using fact based data points but the problem is that the data points themselves are anything but solid. If I defend a white guy against racist behavior or the accusation of it then there are people who will simply blow my logic off as coming from a racist. If I say Obama wasted his opportunity to be a leader on race issues there will be those who tell me that it wasn't Obama but the conservatives who stopped any progress. If someone says AOC is trying to help then I would say she is an socialist who doesn't understand our system.

    Inevitably it becomes personal because every attack on any politician or position is perceived as an attack on the individual who supports them.

    in this context we can never talk about politics on this blog b/c talking turns into debate and debate turns into defensive attitudes
     
  13. WreckinGT

    WreckinGT Helluva Engineer

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    We can't discuss politics on this board because 90% of the people here resort to personal attacks or belittlement as a first line of defense nearly all of the time. Few people here actually want to discuss anything. They just need an outlet for their anger. It's not really defensive attitudes, as much as it is just lack of ability to have civil conversations in this type of forum.
     
    CTJacket and A Love Supreme like this.
  14. Technut1990

    Technut1990 Helluva Engineer

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    Well maybe that too.
     
  15. Whiskey_Clear

    Whiskey_Clear Banned

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    You yourself can fix 85% of this. :D
     
    Animal02 likes this.
  16. Animal02

    Animal02 Helluva Engineer

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    You can always tell what a lib is doing by what they accuse others.
     
  17. WreckinGT

    WreckinGT Helluva Engineer

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    Dynamite drop in Monty!
     
  18. MWBATL

    MWBATL Helluva Engineer

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    Is that a Monty Python reference?
     
  19. WreckinGT

    WreckinGT Helluva Engineer

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    By leaving and letting the echo chamber get back to full force?
     
  20. Technut1990

    Technut1990 Helluva Engineer

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    Oh come on, Invite me to a lib echo chamber that you are in and Ill show up and be me, We shall see how im spoken to
     

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