MBB @ NC St 2/3 5:30PM EST

[GaTech4ever]

Aaannnnnd here it is. The real box score plus/minus of the NC State game. A box score estimate of the points per 100 possessions a player contributed above a league-average player, translated to an average team.

Gapare was the third-worst of anyone who played significant minutes. I know what I’m talking about.

He also led us in USG% as you can see - which means he led us in the % of possessions that ended with Gapare either shooting or turning it over. We don’t need Tafare Gapare to lead us in that statistic in any game (but personally I’d never make judgments based on one game - especially if they were based on counting stats).

And NOW I’ll bow out unless someone wants to argue with data. Class is dismissed

 

[57jacket]

Aaannnnnd here it is. The real box score plus/minus of the NC State game. A box score estimate of the points per 100 possessions a player contributed above a league-average player, translated to an average team.

Gapare was the third-worst of anyone who played significant minutes. I know what I’m talking about.

View attachment 15692

You are not being very nice to these guys GT4 .. LOL!

 

[GaTech4ever]

You are not being very nice to these guys GT4 .. LOL!

Sometimes the teacher has to tell the disrespectful students to shut up and let me explain their homework

 

[YlJacket]

I think you should shut up and go watch the game. If you think that Reeves was the best player on the floor for GT you are nuts. But beyond that even the data you showed doesn't make your point that Gapare shouldn't be on the floor and was the worst player. He was right in the middle as described.

Geez some folks just don't know basketball.

 

[57jacket]

I don't need ratings, statistics, or algorithms to tell me who is playing well. I just watch the game, and easily tell who is and isn't.

 

[cpf2001]

GT4e is right about single game plus minus being super noisy. It evens out more over the course of a season and until Gapare can consistently convert more of those missed baskets then the missed opportunities are going to hold the team back.

“Playing well except for finishing” could very well be true, but it’s a very moral-victory kinda statement.

 

[alagold]

Stats many times say what you want them to say.Like the AA's write up of games during the season trumpeting how Deebo went games with no turnovers .I had to laugh and wonder how many ASSISTS he tried.

It was a shame vs ncst we shot pretty well,, which is our real statistical weakness---- and still lost.

 

[gte447f]

So I will bow out gracefully.

Now, I’ve taken it upon myself to educate you guys. Just please google it next time.

“Most plus/minus statistics have the problem of confounding a player’s performance with the performance of his four teammates (and five opponents) while on the court. Net plus/minus statistics correct for some of this problem by deducting how the team performs without the player, implying that player substitutions are uncorrelated. However, net plus/minus statistics do not account for strong correlations between teammates’ minutes on the court and systematic differences in the quality of opponents various players face.”

NBA Plus-Minus & Impact Metrics in Basketball Explained

NBA Plus-minus and all derived +/- player impact metrics explained. Plus/minus basically tracks the net changes in the score when a player is on or off

www.nbastuffer.com

“The coefficients on the player variables isolate the marginal contributions of particular players while accounting for teammates’ and opponents’ contributions. However, in general, obtaining reasonably precise estimates for these coefficients requires a large number of games.”

^ I know yall know what that means. Now we’re talking, right?

I thought you said you were going to “bow out gracefully.”

 

[GaTech4ever]

I thought you said you were going to “bow out gracefully.”

I lied. I’m passionate about basketball metrics and teaching. Therefore, when I get the opportunity to combine both, especially with those who call my “opinion” weird or put words in my mouth, I take it

If you don’t like learning about basketball then you shouldn’t be on this board.

 

[GaTech4ever]

I think you should shut up and go watch the game. If you think that Reeves was the best player on the floor for GT you are nuts. But beyond that even the data you showed doesn't make your point that Gapare shouldn't be on the floor and was the worst player. He was right in the middle as described.

Geez some folks just don't know basketball.

This is really difficult for you to understand.

1.) I never said Reeves was the best player in the game because I don’t use that stat. Stop putting words in my mouth.

2,) I obviously never Gapare implied was the worst player in the game because I said from the get-go I don’t use that stat. I originally referred to him as unplayable and simply as the “worst” of that metric (which I repeat please do NOT use).

3.) I keep repeating myself that one individual game data, mistakes, etc. doesn’t sway my opinion either way, so stop focusing on it.

4.) Yeah, clearly the person who’s teaching you about advanced stats doesn’t know basketball. Yikes.

 

[MtnWasp]

 

[Root4GT]

This is really difficult for you to understand.

1.) I never said Reeves was the best player in the game because I don’t use that stat. Stop putting words in my mouth.

2,) I obviously never Gapare implied was the worst player in the game because I said from the get-go I don’t use that stat. I originally referred to him as unplayable and simply as the “worst” of that metric (which I repeat please do NOT use).

3.) I keep repeating myself that one individual game data, mistakes, etc. doesn’t sway my opinion either way, so stop focusing on it.

4.) Yeah, clearly the person who’s teaching you about advanced stats doesn’t know basketball. Yikes.

In case you didn't realize it you have started babbling to the point that well your only point is +/- stats don't matter for an individual game. Combined with watching the game they have some utility for that specific game. Clearly they are not the be all / end all stats.

You strongly implied Gapare is a very bad player. Is that what you actually meant to say?

You also said we have many more worse players than Gapare so what the heck, let him play to develop. Care to elaborate with names attached to the players worse than a very bad Gapare that actually get more than token minutes?

 

[Tommy_Taylor_1972]

Amos Alonzo Stagg first said that after the University of Chicago's game against Wabash in 1905.” “Statistics are for losers and assistant coaches. Head coaches worry about wins and losses.” There is no doubt that statistics are meaningful, but Coach Stoudamire is concerned more about wins and losses, I assume, since that is what makes fans want to fill the seats and pay for student athletes' scholarships. Having been a head coach, assistant coach and a DI player, I have viewed statistics from all angles. And I even took statistics at Tech and grad school. Explanation from the company that lists Box Plus/Minus stats on college and pro players can be found at https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html.

For a sense of the BPM scale, per sports-reference.com , (I peek use this website to prove to my grand kids I played DI basketball, but BPM was not invented in the early 1970's:

• +10.0 is an all-time season (think peak Jordan or LeBron)
• +8.0 is an MVP season (think peak Dirk or peak Shaq)
• +6.0 is an all-NBA season
• +4.0 is in all-star consideration
• +2.0 is a good starter
• +0.0 is a decent starter or solid 6th man
• -2.0 is a bench player (this is also defined as "replacement level")
• Below -2.0 are many end-of-bench players

Our current team roster's BPM is:

Per the higher BPM, the starters would include Emmer (an all star) Carter (a good starter). But we know both have limited playing time (not considered in BPM). Those with more playing time would make the starters Kyle, Baye, Kowaci, Tyzhaun, and Nait, with high consideration for Dallan and Miles (leading scorerer). Nait is lowest of the starters but BPM does not account for grit, defense and court vision, teamwork, and leadership. As a guardrail against applying BPM to a player, Damen's NBA career BPA was .3, stated as a decent starter or solid 6th man. But we know he was an excellent long-time high salaried point guard. Coach Stoudamire will hear statistics, but I think he is using his basketball acumen to put the best 5 on the court with the best skills at the best time to win. His legacy is measured by wins and losses. And we can tell he hates losing and players not playing to their potential.This year I will be content with him winning Tech's 105 year win average of 52% of the games and 40% in conference, speaking statistically. The more the merrier.

 

[gte447f]

I lied. I’m passionate about basketball metrics and teaching. Therefore, when I get the opportunity to combine both, especially with those who call my “opinion” weird or put words in my mouth, I take it

If you don’t like learning about basketball then you shouldn’t be on this board.

Not sure if you’re talking to me, but I’ll be on whatever board I feel like being on, thanks.

And yeah, give it a rest professor basketball, you’re rambling like an idiot at this point.

 

[57jacket]

BTW UVA limited UM to 38 points tonight!

 

[GT33]

Stats many times say what you want them to say.

There's a reason it was EE, IE, IM, I'm out. There's a high probability the stats are wrong or misleading, but then again there's an equally high probability we're mistaken.

We lack the heart of a champion which is why we're not winning. Some guys or teams just have "IT" that thing that makes some people win when they shouldn't. Stoudmire either needs to find IT, develop IT or recruit IT otherwise we're just going to keep on losing. We saw it with football, we developed a comfort with losing. We became losers. Other teams knew it, we were going to fold most games like a cheap tent. New leadership and you're starting to see with Key what we've not seen yet other than fleeting instances with Stoudamire like Clemson, unc and dook.

 

[spdrama]

If you don’t like learning about basketball then you shouldn’t be on this board.

Been trying to follow this rant and I only speak for myself, but if you think all this metric/stat stuff is teaching anyone about basketball you are either over-stuffed full of yourself, naive, out to lunch or all three.

I played jr HS basketball 64 years ago, followed by HS varsity, college intramurals & been attending & following college ball since all we had was the NIT played at the old MSG at 49th & 8th. I was an NYU fan when the were a powerhouse under my dad’s childhood best buddy, Lou Rossini. Was born 1 year after Cremins in the Bronx. Became a GT fan when my son (IE 98) & daughter-in law (EE 00) attended and fell in love with the school, campus, team & Atlanta. They graduated with the two Matts, Harpring & Kuchar.

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a basketball teacher. And would never even think myself qualified to teach it, except offering assistance to my grandchildren, two of whom are freshman JV HS starters.

What I do know for sure is your +/- stat is just that. Another stat. Some stats are useful for coaches to teach or fans to discuss or argue about. Other stats are useless. Don’t know where your’s come in, but “teaching” us anything about the game of basketball it does not. Don’t think I will leave this board because I haven’t learned anything from you.

 

[Connell62]

Been trying to follow this rant and I only speak for myself, but if you think all this metric/stat stuff is teaching anyone about basketball you are either over-stuffed full of yourself, naive, out to lunch or all three.

I played jr HS basketball 64 years ago, followed by HS varsity, college intramurals & been attending & following college ball since all we had was the NIT played at the old MSG at 49th & 8th. I was an NYU fan when the were a powerhouse under my dad’s childhood best buddy, Lou Rossini. Was born 1 year after Cremins in the Bronx. Became a GT fan when my son (IE 98) & daughter-in law (EE 00) attended and fell in love with the school, campus, team & Atlanta. They graduated with the two Matts, Harpring & Kuchar.

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a basketball teacher. And would never even think myself qualified to teach it, except offering assistance to my grandchildren, two of whom are freshman JV HS starters.

What I do know for sure is your +/- stat is just that. Another stat. Some stats are useful for coaches to teach or fans to discuss or argue about. Other stats are useless. Don’t know where your’s come in, but “teaching” us anything about the game of basketball it does not. Don’t think I will leave this board because I haven’t learned anything from you.

I've tried giving this kid the benefit of the doubt, but I just can't....! He knows nothing about the game other what he has read on the internet or watched on YouTube.

I lied. I’m passionate about basketball metrics and teaching. Therefore, when I get the opportunity to combine both, especially with those who call my “opinion” weird or put words in my mouth, I take it

If you don’t like learning about basketball then you shouldn’t be on this board.

How are you gonna teach anyone the game when you don't know it yourself? In all serious, have you ever played on a team? Like your high-school or even your middle school team?

I'd wager no (heavily) and if you did, you rode the pine. Otherwise, you wouldn't be going on and on about all the stats.

You aren't teaching anyone anything. You are however making yourself look like an ***! Congrats!

 

[LargeFO]

BTW UVA limited UM to 38 points tonight!

That's the uva defense we know and love.

 

[YlJacket]

I saw UVA play early on and did not think they were very good. Was disappointed when we lost them. But they have been getting better and better all year long. If they do somehow make the tourney they are a team I don’t think anybody wants to play