Kaepernick

[Northeast Stinger]

I am a Christian and my conviction is that my allegiance (patriotism in a manner of speaking) is to Christ alone. America is not my great hope. It's done some great things and some absolutely horrible things. So personally i am trying to figure out what being a Christian in an American context means to me still.

If you have not read the book, "Resident Aliens," I would recommend it on this topic. And, as a further note, Karl Barth, whom some consider the greatest theologian of the 20th century, was very concerned about the growing role of "cultural Protestantism" in politics. Were he living today he would see that his worst fears had come true.

All of which is to say, if you are struggling with what being a Christian and being an American at the same time means, you are in good company.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Oh yeah...I forgot to mention the ironical ignorance of the multi millions he has made, as a minority, in this country. The very same country that he apparently believes is the offender in the mass oppression of minorities. Billions of people around the world wish they could be so "oppressed."

Not taking issue with your personal feelings about this but just want to point out that throughout history people who have prospered and done well under particular systems have still felt conscience bound to stand up for those who are not getting a fair shake. There is nothing hypocritical about that.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

As to putting your hand over your heart, it's what I was taught and it's in the Federal Code Title 36 since 1998 apparently. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/301

I appreciate the civil tone of dialogue here. There are a lot of problems in our country that should be talked about and worked on in a civil manner. I'm conflicted about this and will leave it at that.

Well, that explains it. I honestly did not know the code had changed. I now find myself somewhat resistant to the code since it no longer says that singing is the appropriate response to the anthem and uses the response to the pledge of allegiance instead. But I am an old fuddy-duddy.

 

[kg01]

As expected, this has become a referendum on the guy as a person (his career, does he have a right to be upset?, blah, blah, blah) and the legit issue is being lost.

This is why change doesn't happen.

 

[AE 87]

As expected, this has become a referendum on the guy as a person (his career, does he have a right to be upset?, blah, blah, blah) and the legit issue is being lost.

This is why change doesn't happen.

What's the legit issue?

 

[RonJohn]

As expected, this has become a referendum on the guy as a person (his career, does he have a right to be upset?, blah, blah, blah) and the legit issue is being lost.

This is why change doesn't happen.

What is the "legit issue"? I did question his career and his integrity. I didn't question them because I am upset with his actions. I question them because his "issue" wasn't known as an "issue" until he was defensively answering a question about him not standing. His answer was a vague defensive type answer, not a well reasoned issue of taking a stand and attempting to move toward change. If he had made pronouncements before taking action, it would be easy to know his intentions. As it played out, I don't know if he was intending to make a statement, or if he simply made something up on the spur of the moment after being confronted.

There are issues about race relations. There are issues about lack of accountability for police who do bad things. That lack of accountability for the bad apples causes increased public suspicion for police who use force when it is appropriate and necessary. Those issues do need to be discussed. However, I do not believe that Kaepernick should be the poster boy for any of it.

 

[kg01]

What's the legit issue?

Don't be 'that guy'. There are race-related issues in this country. RonJohn's post summarizes many of them.

@RonJohn : Who is "protesting" the issues is inconsequential. I hate that we get bogged down with assassinating a guy's character rather than discussing the actual problems.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

@kg01
It was a referendum on the guy to begin with. And his method of speech. If you want to discuss race relations start a new thread.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

Not taking issue with your personal feelings about this but just want to point out that throughout history people who have prospered and done well under particular systems have still felt conscience bound to stand up for those who are not getting a fair shake. There is nothing hypocritical about that.

I'll agree to disagree. I think it's quite hypocritical of him. Is there racism in this country? Yes. Is it rampant? I don't believe so. Does that make it less serious? No, it should be stamped out with authority whenever discovered. Does this country provide more opportunity to all of its citizens to prosper more than any other country. I believe so.

 

[RonJohn]

@RonJohn : Who is "protesting" the issues is inconsequential. I hate that we get bogged down with assassinating a guy's character rather than discussing the actual problems.

I am happy to discuss such issues, however I don't think that a sports forum is the most appropriate/effective place to discuss them.

However, I take issue with the belief that CK is the one "protesting" them. As I stated above, he wasn't "protesting" until he had to go on the defensive. MLK Jr lead some of the most effective non-violent protests in US history. He and his followers didn't conduct sit-ins and disrupt businesses and then proclaim their "issue" after they were arrested. They made their issues and their intentions known ahead of acting. To effectively "lead" a movement, you have to lead. Making a defensive, impromptu statement after the fact is not leadership. In such a case, I lean more toward believing it is an excuse instead of a cause.

 

[AE 87]

Don't be 'that guy'. There are race-related issues in this country. RonJohn's post summarizes many of them.

@RonJohn : Who is "protesting" the issues is inconsequential. I hate that we get bogged down with assassinating a guy's character rather than discussing the actual problems.

The fact that you went personal when I asked you the meaning of your post is why serious discussion about serious topics doesn't take place.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I'll agree to disagree.

What are you disagreeing with? Not trying to be a jerk, I just want to be clear I understand you. Black athletes who have done well and prospered within the system have often taken stands like this to raise consciousness for those who are being left behind. I am O.K. with you deciding for yourself that Kaepernick is not that person, if you have concluded that, but in general terms what he has done pretty well fits the historical record.

Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jr., Jackie Robinson, Muhammad Ali, just to name a few, were all people who were doing much better than their general peer group when they decided to take a stand. Many others in their same position throughout history have chosen not to rock the boat. Deciding who is being hypocritical and who is not has to always be seen in context of the bigger picture. Sometimes this only becomes clear decades later.

But, again, if you have decided Kaepernick does not fit the historical record that is perfectly within your right.

 

[savjacket9]

@RonJohn That's true but MLK Jr also had to be convinced to take such a leadership role as he did not want to at first. The guy is 25 years-old. He doesn't have all the answers right now, he is learning what it means to be a leader on a civic issue on the fly. Maybe this is where his start is at becoming a leader in the civic realm. Also why would it be an accuse, honestly that sounds like an excuse to delegitimize his position on the topic because of issues of style

Although this forum might not be the most appropriate/effective place to a discussion about racism, it is an issue that affects every aspect of our country including sports so it is appropriate to discuss it here.

 

[kg01]

@kg01
It was a referendum on the guy to begin with. And his method of speech. If you want to discuss race relations start a new thread.

You got it, Whiskey. I usually don't bother to comment on these matters because it ends up being useless discussion.

The fact that you went personal when I asked you the meaning of your post is why serious discussion about serious topics doesn't take place.

No one went "personal". Clearly this isn't the place for this discussion so I'll take Whiskey's advice and exit stage left.

 

[savjacket9]

How can you discuss how someone said something, without also addressing what he said?

 

[AE 87]

You got it, Whiskey. I usually don't bother to comment on these matters because it ends up being useless discussion.



No one went "personal". Clearly this isn't the place for this discussion so I'll take Whiskey's advice and exit stage left.

First, When you said, "Don't be that guy," you were not responding to my question. You were addressing me as a person suggesting that I was being a "that guy" which I ought not be. When you tell someone that you think they are being the a type of person that they ought not be, that's personal.

At least, that's how it sounds to me. If not, maybe "that guy" is a singular form of "those people," not personal but prejudiced?

Second, I don't know why a discussion on serious issues can't be had on an internet forum. It just takes people willing to state their positions clearly and discuss why they hold them on the one hand and to respectfully listen and try to understand another's position on the other. When you said, "the legit issue was being lost," I wanted to better understand your position and asked a question about the legit issue to which you referred. I saw your first response before the edit, and it wasn't the same as referring to @RonJohn's post.

 

[RonJohn]

@RonJohn That's true but MLK Jr also had to be convinced to take such a leadership role as he did not want to at first. The guy is 25 years-old. He doesn't have all the answers right now, he is learning what it means to be a leader on a civic issue on the fly. Maybe this is where his start is at becoming a leader in the civic realm. Also why would it be an accuse, honestly that sounds like an excuse to delegitimize his position on the topic because of issues of style

Although this forum might not be the most appropriate/effective place to a discussion about racism, it is an issue that affects every aspect of our country including sports so it is appropriate to discuss it here.

The point that I intended to make in my first post was that the current state of his career and the manner in which he made the statements do not lead to credibility. I am not attempting to downplay his position. I am point blank stating that I have no faith that what he said had anything to do with him not standing. I do not know that he didn't stand because he was sulking at being at least the second string QB. However, as far as I know that is just as likely as some altruistic reason. I am point blank saying that the order and the manner in which he expressed himself does not provide him any credibility.

As for places to discuss: Maybe if the mods allow it a thread in the lounge would work. The problem is that if the GT Football forum ends up with 100s of race relation threads, it is no longer a good place to go to for information on football. I hardly ever look at anything other than the football forum.(I do know that this thread is not in that forum) If the GT Football forum was filled with other stuff(race, basketball, local fund raising, or whatever), and it became difficult to find information about GT football, then it would not be an effective GT football forum.

 

[Whiskey_Clear]

What are you disagreeing with? Not trying to be a jerk, I just want to be clear

I don't know how to be more clear I'm afraid. He is saying minorities are being opressed on a massive level. I don't see evidence of that honestly and he could be a poster boy for an argument against it as well. So I believe his stand is a direct contrast to what I perceive to be true in this country.

 

[savjacket9]

Ok just a couple things. As you noted this is not in the gt football forum and if the mods would like to move this I have no problem with that. Second, he is not the second string wb as the starter has not been named yet. Third, maybe he is not the best spokesman but at least he is speaking up now even if he had to be asked maybe his platform would have been larger if he won the superbowl but it's been pretty widespread as is so the message is still getting out. Had he made an announcement first many would have called it a publicity stunt by a qb in limbo, so there would always be a way to criticize his presentation. These issues are why I personally don't good your argument persuasive. I truly hope that you don't take that personally. It is not meant to be.

 

[RonJohn]

Ok just a couple things. As you noted this is not in the gt football forum and if the mods would like to move this I have no problem with that. Second, he is not the second string wb as the starter has not been named yet. Third, maybe he is not the best spokesman but at least he is speaking up now even if he had to be asked maybe his platform would have been larger if he won the superbowl but it's been pretty widespread as is so the message is still getting out. Had he made an announcement first many would have called it a publicity stunt by a qb in limbo, so there would always be a way to criticize his presentation. These issues are why I personally don't good your argument persuasive. I truly hope that you don't take that personally. It is not meant to be.

There are reports, and there were reports before that he might not even make the 53 team roster, much less be the second string QB: http://sports.yahoo.com/news/big-consequences-49ers-cut-colin-000000252.html.

Many people disagree with me about many things. Sometimes, I even admit that I am wrong. I don't take offense if someone doesn't think the way I do.