High school coaches impressed by Collins...

[Northeast Stinger]

Pessimistic much?

Perhaps. But I think he is just reminding us that since the days of Dodd, sooner or later, our rivals find a way to negatively recruit against us. I don't know if it is out of fear that they have to keep "the sleeping giant" down or that it is just easy because we are already perceived as "different." Either way, if history is prologue, it will happen again. But the writer wasn't suggesting that it necessarily will be successful, just that fans once again will have to be careful not to buy into criticisms of our coach that originate from our rivals. Some of our fans succumbed to that with coach Johnson.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

Maybe the recruiting budget can't be used as a reason for not getting any one particular recruit, but it can most certainly be used as a reason for not being able to recruit more players from more regions. If you don't have the money to hire staff to go to Timbuktu and beyond trying to attract players, or even find players who might fit into the Tech mold, whatever that might be, then you are not going to get those players.

Hmmm, so you are suggesting that Alabama actually traveled to Hawaii to find their Heisman candidate quarterback? I wonder if they used their own jet? You may be on to something.

 

[TromboneJacket]

Of course they will simply find another excuse to negatively recruit . Blaming it on the O was just easy because it was unique. And of course kids will use that as an excuse.....much easier than tellling parents etc No, I don't want to go there because I will have to study.....and of course those that were anti 3O buy into that excuse Hook line and sinker.
There will be "calculus" "no social life" and to the parents "Atlanta is not safe" among several other reasons.

That’s what I’m afraid of. If a player said they didn’t want to come to Tech because of the option, it was a believable excuse because it wasn’t similar to any NFL offenses outside of several Panthers packages. If someone wanted to avoid Tech because of the academic rigor, the offense was a perfect cover because unless a recruit had specifically said they didn’t want to go to the NFL, there was no way to tell if he was lying. It’s possible that the biggest difference will be that the higher rated players will be honest about why they don’t come to Tech (or we’ll have that cringy moment when a recruit says academics are really important to him right before choosing Arkansas over Georgia Tech).

Fortunately, in addition to the offense no longer being an excuse, we have the increased resources CPJ lobbied for as well as CGC’s dynamic personality and recruiting abilities to hopefully give us some help in the recruiting department.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

Sorry, but there are SO MANY things wrong and ill informed about your post.

First, Jameis Winston was a valedictorian candidate in HS, and an academic All-ACC member at FSU. He was book smart, but a knucklehead socially off the field. BTW, we were Jameis's first college offer.

Second, DeShaun Watson is probably the primary example of a recruit flat out saying that they didn't want to come to GT because of the offense. We offered him as a 9th grader, but never had a shot because of our offense. Also, Clemson wasn't "Clemson" when Watson was in HS...they just offered him the opportunity to play in the same offense and they were the first to offer him. Believe it or not, the type of system you run DOES mean something.

Third, outside of Tua Tagovoiloa, all those QBs I names were all within a 1-3 hour drive of GT. I believe GT was closer to all the schools they ended up at. Fields and Watson were pretty much in GT's backyard. Recruiting budget isn't an issue there.

I mean, kids flat out saying they don't want to play in this system, HS coaches flat out saying kids don't want to play in the system or practice against it....at some point you actually have to believe them.

Why we struggle at recruiting is a pie with many slices. I think you’re both right, the real question is who’s slice is bigger? Irregardless of that, there are many slices that we can chip away at, one of the toughest is lack of prestige, for lack of a better word. I’m not talking academic prestige, I’m talking the ESPN-look at me-look at me-prestige the vast majority of the factory kids crave. Stadium and fanbase size play into this as well, but it’s mostly big-time TV media attention and likelihood of a Natty.

Another familiar characteristic of the factory kid is the “ I didn’t come here to play school” mentality. We just can’t compete with that. Kids have to come here to play school. This is where the recruiting budget comes in. All these needles in the haystack who want to play school and play football and aren’t driven by fame and notoriety are not sitting in our backyard.

So let’s say we quadruple our recruiting budget and we find all these nerdy stud athletes. Well, the fact that they’re academically inclined means they’re very particular about their academics. Believe it or not, all brainy nerds are not interested in stem or math heavy business coursework. This is where our limited majors has an impact. These kids aren’t scared by The big fat calculus book, they’d just rather apply their significant brain power in a different direction. So we have to convince him that GT is a better place for them than Stanford and Notre Dame. These guys are also driven by academic prestige which we have in spades, but still lag behind the previously mentioned duo.

So who do we target the hardest, the scholar athlete or the factory kid? Each has its unique challenge. Do we battle the Stanfords and the Notre Dames or do we battle the Bamas and the Georgias? Either way, we’re going to need $$$$$ and a stable full of top shelf salesmen.

From all that I’ve seen so far, it appears we’re gonna try to out-Clemson Clemson. Good luck with that. And I mean that with all sincerity. If Jeff thinks he can do it, then more power to him and I’m right behind him the whole way.

 

[IEEEWreck]

I'm truly baffled by people who need to deny that GT has some serious and systemic issues with recruiting that we might be able to do something about. What's going on there? Why do you need to argue against giving Collins, or any coach for that matter, the best toolset possible to succeed?

Is it some perverse need to rub it in the face of anyone who ever liked the Flexbone that all of GT's woes are caused by the personal failings of one Paul Johnson? Because if so, that has to be the best negative recruiting in the history of football- so good it makes the other team's fans try to sabotage the next coach.

 

[4shotB]

So who do we target the hardest, the scholar athlete or the factory kid? Each has its unique challenge. Do we battle the Stanfords and the Notre Dames or do we battle the Bamas and the Georgias? Either way, we’re going to need $$$$$ and a stable full of top shelf salesmen.

.

I talked to a well known and highly regarded coach in my area at length on this topic the other day. He has produced many kids who played at the next level and has won state championships.He believes that the colleges are suffering from the NFL syndrome - good football players are slipping through the cracks and not getting offers due to their lack of quantitative "measurables". He had a DT who was 6' 265# a few years ago who absolutely destroyed a 5 star OT who is now playing for a prominent football factory as their starting LT. He could not get any schools in the top division to offer even though he believes the kid was P5 material. Or, he will have a kid not get any offers at all until a Northwestern or GT offer, then the bigger schools will start looking at them. He thinks the recruiters are kind of lazy and look to closely at the star rankings of Rivals, etc. (yes, he did say that) rather than do their own work. He feels like the recruiting process is lazy and sloppy and that their is a world of opportunity to tap into the market of FB with great production but maybe lacking a bit in the "measurables". Of course, all kids who are good HS players have college potential but he is firm in his belief that there is an untapped market waiting for someone. This is his words, I'm just passing along what I heard.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

Sorry, but there are SO MANY things wrong and ill informed about your post.

First, Jameis Winston was a valedictorian candidate in HS, and an academic All-ACC member at FSU. He was book smart, but a knucklehead socially off the field. BTW, we were Jameis's first college offer.

Second, DeShaun Watson is probably the primary example of a recruit flat out saying that they didn't want to come to GT because of the offense. We offered him as a 9th grader, but never had a shot because of our offense. Also, Clemson wasn't "Clemson" when Watson was in HS...they just offered him the opportunity to play in the same offense and they were the first to offer him. Believe it or not, the type of system you run DOES mean something.

Third, outside of Tua Tagovoiloa, all those QBs I names were all within a 1-3 hour drive of GT. I believe GT was closer to all the schools they ended up at. Fields and Watson were pretty much in GT's backyard. Recruiting budget isn't an issue there.

I mean, kids flat out saying they don't want to play in this system, HS coaches flat out saying kids don't want to play in the system or practice against it....at some point you actually have to believe them.

I plead ignorance of Winston's HS status as a student, but that sure didn't extend to his overall behavior. That tells me he probably would not have made it academically at Tech and was more than likely a (if not THE) reason for his lack of interest. As far as Watson's not liking the system, then that sure sounds like he was sold a false bill of goods by someone; he most assuredly would have been a perfect fit for our system. Fields also was sold a false bid of goods by the mutts, or he's just stupid, because he apparently was led to believe that he was going to step right in at the cesspool and lead them to an NC. Georgia is unfortunately one of those "attractive" schools who can and regularly does fool kids into coming there when many of them could go to a "unattractive " school and be pretty much a guaranteed star. At any rate to say that the recruiting budget isn't an issue is being a bit naive; how do you know whether more money spent on more staff would not have been effective in getting kids like Watson to sign with Tech. The answer is you don't. And if Collins doesn't get a larger recruiting budget and staff, he will end up with the same results, in spite of his enthusiasm and optimism. Just because a kid initially says he doesn't want to come to Tech for whatever reason, doesn't mean his mind can't be changed.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

Hmmm, so you are suggesting that Alabama actually traveled to Hawaii to find their Heisman candidate quarterback? I wonder if they used their own jet? You may be on to something.

I have no idea whether someone from Hawaii actually traveled to Hawaii or not, but it wouldn't surprise me if someone did. At any rate, through whatever means of contact they had with Tua, someone from Bama was able to convince him to come there. We obviously didn't have anyone fly to Australia to get Gotsis, but we were still able to stay in contact with him enough to convince him that Tech was where he needed to be.

 

[IEEEWreck]

I talked to a well known and highly regarded coach in my area at length on this topic the other day. He has produced many kids who played at the next level and has won state championships.He believes that the colleges are suffering from the NFL syndrome - good football players are slipping through the cracks and not getting offers due to their lack of quantitative "measurables". He had a DT who was 6' 265# a few years ago who absolutely destroyed a 5 star OT who is now playing for a prominent football factory as their starting LT. He could not get any schools in the top division to offer even though he believes the kid was P5 material. Or, he will have a kid not get any offers at all until a Northwestern or GT offer, then the bigger schools will start looking at them. He thinks the recruiters are kind of lazy and look to closely at the star rankings of Rivals, etc. (yes, he did say that) rather than do their own work. He feels like the recruiting process is lazy and sloppy and that their is a world of opportunity to tap into the market of FB with great production but maybe lacking a bit in the "measurables". Of course, all kids who are good HS players have college potential but he is firm in his belief that there is an untapped market waiting for someone. This is his words, I'm just passing along what I heard.

I buy it. But can Tech build up a program of genuine scouting?

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

I buy it. But can Tech build up a program of genuine scouting?

That's where the much needed budget increases come into play.

 

[dressedcheeseside]

I talked to a well known and highly regarded coach in my area at length on this topic the other day. He has produced many kids who played at the next level and has won state championships.He believes that the colleges are suffering from the NFL syndrome - good football players are slipping through the cracks and not getting offers due to their lack of quantitative "measurables". He had a DT who was 6' 265# a few years ago who absolutely destroyed a 5 star OT who is now playing for a prominent football factory as their starting LT. He could not get any schools in the top division to offer even though he believes the kid was P5 material. Or, he will have a kid not get any offers at all until a Northwestern or GT offer, then the bigger schools will start looking at them. He thinks the recruiters are kind of lazy and look to closely at the star rankings of Rivals, etc. (yes, he did say that) rather than do their own work. He feels like the recruiting process is lazy and sloppy and that their is a world of opportunity to tap into the market of FB with great production but maybe lacking a bit in the "measurables". Of course, all kids who are good HS players have college potential but he is firm in his belief that there is an untapped market waiting for someone. This is his words, I'm just passing along what I heard.

Thanks for the reply. I think he’s right, I think Gailey and his staff were pretty good at finding those guys.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I talked to a well known and highly regarded coach in my area at length on this topic the other day. He has produced many kids who played at the next level and has won state championships.He believes that the colleges are suffering from the NFL syndrome - good football players are slipping through the cracks and not getting offers due to their lack of quantitative "measurables". He had a DT who was 6' 265# a few years ago who absolutely destroyed a 5 star OT who is now playing for a prominent football factory as their starting LT. He could not get any schools in the top division to offer even though he believes the kid was P5 material. Or, he will have a kid not get any offers at all until a Northwestern or GT offer, then the bigger schools will start looking at them. He thinks the recruiters are kind of lazy and look to closely at the star rankings of Rivals, etc. (yes, he did say that) rather than do their own work. He feels like the recruiting process is lazy and sloppy and that their is a world of opportunity to tap into the market of FB with great production but maybe lacking a bit in the "measurables". Of course, all kids who are good HS players have college potential but he is firm in his belief that there is an untapped market waiting for someone. This is his words, I'm just passing along what I heard.

The argument that some of us used to go round and round about on FTRS was whether or not CPJ didn't pay enough attention to star ratings. One side said he did his own research and didn't just (lazily) rely on what the recruiting services said. Hence the number of "diamonds in the rough" he found.

The other side said that the recruiting services have an objectively measurable track record and can't be ignored. And the problem with ignoring is that recruits themselves become aware of how few of your players show up highly rated by the services and they conclude you are not a good recruiter and that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

It does seem like Tech has to find its own secret sauce. Boise State did this even with recruiting classes often rated below Tech. At times BYU has done it by tapping into a Mormon farm system of 23-25 year olds. And Notre Dame has a 90 million fan base that feeds recruits to them along with a massive parochial school infrastructure. Stanford cornered a niche market in several strong recruiting areas of the country. It seems like Tech hasn't quite found the recipe but I have argued that if the school was in the Midwest or far west, where academics are prized a little more, and we were out of the shadow of the SEC, we would not even be having this conversation.

 

[Dpjacket]

@BCJacket did an analysis that shows there is direct correlation between recruiting budget and recruiting class ranking. I don’t think it’s unfair to suggest increasing budget could help (I definitely don’t see how it could hurt).

Yeah I saw that and it was very interesting. But I suppose it hits the principle that correlation != causation. And maybe that’s the word I should have used. As has been debated in this thread, and across threads probably since inception of this forum there are unique variables involved here, which — yes — might include a particular offense style.

Getting back to this thread, I believe classes will improve under CGC simply because he is a motivating personality. To your point, increasing the budget couldn’t hurt, either. But I would do so conservatively. Like others have said: we ain’t going to out-Clempson Clemson.

Or it would be more interesting to this thread to keep it exactly the same for next 5 years and then see how it compares to last five!

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I have no idea whether someone from Hawaii actually traveled to Hawaii or not, but it wouldn't surprise me if someone did. At any rate, through whatever means of contact they had with Tua, someone from Bama was able to convince him to come there. We obviously didn't have anyone fly to Australia to get Gotsis, but we were still able to stay in contact with him enough to convince him that Tech was where he needed to be.

We already had by accident a personal connection with his coach. I suspect Alabama has a lot more going on than a "lucky" connection.

 

[Dpjacket]

You're probably talking about the majority of kids at factories, the majority of 4 and 5 start type kids.
Read this: https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/4/10/5594348/college-football-bag-man-interview

And, watch this (part 1 of 4-part series):

I've got first hand knowledge of this stuff, too. (Well, it was a friend of mine, so does that make it second hand?)

You've really got to ask yourself, "Is this how I want GT to win?", "Is this what I want GT to get into?".

Yeah, that’s frightening stuff if this is the state of affairs. I’ll try to watch the whole bit if I can stomach it. Thanks for sharing-

Also, no — for me, I would have GT take the high road every day to whatever end.

 

[Northeast Stinger]

I plead ignorance of Winston's HS status as a student, but that sure didn't extend to his overall behavior. That tells me he probably would not have made it academically at Tech and was more than likely a (if not THE) reason for his lack of interest. As far as Watson's not liking the system, then that sure sounds like he was sold a false bill of goods by someone; he most assuredly would have been a perfect fit for our system. Fields also was sold a false bid of goods by the mutts, or he's just stupid, because he apparently was led to believe that he was going to step right in at the cesspool and lead them to an NC. Georgia is unfortunately one of those "attractive" schools who can and regularly does fool kids into coming there when many of them could go to a "unattractive " school and be pretty much a guaranteed star. At any rate to say that the recruiting budget isn't an issue is being a bit naive; how do you know whether more money spent on more staff would not have been effective in getting kids like Watson to sign with Tech. The answer is you don't. And if Collins doesn't get a larger recruiting budget and staff, he will end up with the same results, in spite of his enthusiasm and optimism. Just because a kid initially says he doesn't want to come to Tech for whatever reason, doesn't mean his mind can't be changed.

Just to pick up on one of your points, it feels like I hear more about kids being sorry they chose Uga to play for kids being sorry they chose Tech. I suspect that means we are better at "shooting straight" with our recruits than they are.

 

[Techster]

Why we struggle at recruiting is a pie with many slices. I think you’re both right, the real question is who’s slice is bigger? Irregardless of that, there are many slices that we can chip away at, one of the toughest is lack of prestige, for lack of a better word. I’m not talking academic prestige, I’m talking the ESPN-look at me-look at me-prestige the vast majority of the factory kids crave. Stadium and fanbase size play into this as well, but it’s mostly big-time TV media attention and likelihood of a Natty.

Another familiar characteristic of the factory kid is the “ I didn’t come here to play school” mentality. We just can’t compete with that. Kids have to come here to play school. This is where the recruiting budget comes in. All these needles in the haystack who want to play school and play football and aren’t driven by fame and notoriety are not sitting in our backyard.

So let’s say we quadruple our recruiting budget and we find all these nerdy stud athletes. Well, the fact that they’re academically inclined means they’re very particular about their academics. Believe it or not, all brainy nerds are not interested in stem or math heavy business coursework. This is where our limited majors has an impact. These kids aren’t scared by The big fat calculus book, they’d just rather apply their significant brain power in a different direction. So we have to convince him that GT is a better place for them than Stanford and Notre Dame. These guys are also driven by academic prestige which we have in spades, but still lag behind the previously mentioned duo.

So who do we target the hardest, the scholar athlete or the factory kid? Each has its unique challenge. Do we battle the Stanfords and the Notre Dames or do we battle the Bamas and the Georgias? Either way, we’re going to need $$$$$ and a stable full of top shelf salesmen.

From all that I’ve seen so far, it appears we’re gonna try to out-Clemson Clemson. Good luck with that. And I mean that with all sincerity. If Jeff thinks he can do it, then more power to him and I’m right behind him the whole way.

I've said this before, and I'm not sure why people disagree.

GT has a smaller pool than the majority of other schools. Academics, entrance scores/grades, limited majors...those things all play a part. Those are the biggest reasons why GT has a smaller pool. Whether you agree or not, the system CPJ ran made the already smaller pool even smaller. You can disagree, but the evidence is out there directly from recruits, recruits coaches, and media. No one is disagreeing that all the other stuff isn't a factor...some of us are just saying IN ADDITION to the other factors, CPJ's system was also a limiting factor.

Now will CGC and his "NFL style" offense open up all the oceans, lakes, and rivers of the recruiting world? No, because GT has factors other schools don't. But instead of just being limited to swimming around in the Atlantic Ocean for fish, GT will get will also get to expand our waters for fish into Atlantic and the Indian Ocean...which is to say our pool increases in size.

Listen, GT isn't recruiting 85 kids every year. We're recruiting between 15-20 kids. There are enough positives for GT that finding 15-20 kids (4-6 of whom should be "elite") who want to play football at GT shouldn't be a problem. I mean, even CPJ said at his retiring presser that the issues at GT can be overcome.

Like I've been saying since CGC was hired. There are a lot of narratives that will either be proven correct or wrong. Let's see how it all plays out over the next 2-3 years.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

Just to pick up on one of your points, it feels like I hear more about kids being sorry they chose Uga to play for kids being sorry they chose Tech. I suspect that means we are better at "shooting straight" with our recruits than they are.

A few years ago a local Augusta kid (Brendan Douglas) had been committed to Tech for months but flipped to the cesspool on (or very near to) signing day. He had all the makings of a good, if not great, B-back for Tech, but "always wanted to go to Georgia," and so when the last minute opportunity arose (VERY late offer), he flipped. There was an article about him in today's Augusta paper, covering his speaking to some local charitable group yesterday. In the article were his stats at Georgia. In four years there, he had a total of 700 yards offense and something like 5 touchdowns. Obviously those yards and scores came when he came in off the bench against nobody competition. The one time he had a chance to make a statement and failed was when he fumbled the ball against Vandy on what would have been a game-winning drive, and Vandy won the game. I LOVED when that happened....LOL At any rate, I think we "shot straight" with him, and he still flipped. What ya gonna do?

 

[dressedcheeseside]

I've said this before, and I'm not sure why people disagree.

GT has a smaller pool than the majority of other schools. Academics, entrance scores/grades, limited majors...those things all play a part. Those are the biggest reasons why GT has a smaller pool. Whether you agree or not, the system CPJ ran made the already smaller pool even smaller. You can disagree, but the evidence is out there directly from recruits, recruits coaches, and media. No one is disagreeing that all the other stuff isn't a factor...some of us are just saying IN ADDITION to the other factors, CPJ's system was also a limiting factor.

Now will CGC and his "NFL style" offense open up all the oceans, lakes, and rivers of the recruiting world? No, because GT has factors other schools don't. But instead of just being limited to swimming around in the Atlantic Ocean for fish, GT will get will also get to expand our waters for fish into Atlantic and the Indian Ocean...which is to say our pool increases in size.

Listen, GT isn't recruiting 85 kids every year. We're recruiting between 15-20 kids. There are enough positives for GT that finding 15-20 kids (4-6 of whom should be "elite") who want to play football at GT shouldn't be a problem. I mean, even CPJ said at his retiring presser that the issues at GT can be overcome.

Like I've been saying since CGC was hired. There are a lot of narratives that will either be proven correct or wrong. Let's see how it all plays out over the next 2-3 years.

I agree with that, even the part about the offense shrinking the pool. But here’s the catch, Coach Johnson’s unique scheme and superb game day coaching mitigated or offset the lack of talent to some extent. The exact opposite can also happen. A bump in talent can be offset by poor coaching. All we have to do is look at FSU and Miami and a host of other talent rich factories that have struggled to prove that point.

Now I’m not suggesting that Jeff is a poor coach or that his offense won’t make the most of the talent. But Coach Johnson was a known commodity, the jury is still out on Jeff in this regard.

 

[Supersizethatorder-mutt]

You can disagree, but the evidence is out there directly from recruits, recruits coaches, and media. No one is disagreeing that all the other stuff isn't a factor...some of us are just saying IN ADDITION to the other factors, CPJ's system was also a limiting factor.

I don't disagree that it was a LIMITING factor, but it was only like that because the media and the coaches of the other recruiting teams MADE it a factor.